Kirksey signing with the Bills PS

[Beck Water]

3 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I think the Beane was really going to resign Edmunds. All indications pointed that way. Thinking he might even take a slight discount to stay in Buffalo

Things changed when the Bears massively overpaid for him. At that point, there's no way Beane could resign him. 

Now Beane had to make another tough decision on Oliver. That decision was made much easier with the departure of Edmunds. Additionally, the Bills are pretty thin in this department too. So it was prudent to sign Oliver on what looks to be a pretty fair level of compensation.

 

It's interesting.  Superficially, Oliver's contract and Edmunds are not too dissimilar. 

 

Oliver: 4 year $68M, $45M guaranteed ($24.5M guaranteed at signing)

Edmunds: 4 year $72M, $50M guaranteed ($36.8M guaranteed at signing)

 

Differences include $12.3M more guaranteed at signing and an extra million a year.  Reportedly, Oliver's language contains offset language (if he is released and signs elsewhere, the Bills subtract his new team's salary from what they owe).

 

I agree that various lines of evidence suggest the Bills wanted to re-sign Edmunds but he went above what they were willing to pay.

 

3 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Free agency is the next option. Seems like the available FA aren't a good fit or really not true MLB.

 

I think there probably were some FA MLB available who were at least as "true" MLB as Dodson and Bernard are.

[RoyBatty is alive]

37 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

He already knows the defense. Roquan Smith started the same week he was traded to Baltimore.

 

Everyone is different. It’ll really depend on his health.

He already knows the defense does he?  Really, how?  And Kirksey isnt any Roquan Smith, not even close.

[Royale with Cheese]

5 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

He already knows the defense does he?  Really, how?  And Kirksey isnt any Roquan Smith, not even close.

 

Roquan Smith is a better linebacker but that doesn't mean Kirksey can't pick up a defense quickly.  Guys can pick up a playbook pretty quickly and Kirksey isn't the only late camp cut to start immediately for another team.  Baker Mayfield started for the Rams with just a few days after acquiring him....I assure you a QB's playbook is much more difficult than a MLB.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

12 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

He already knows the defense does he?  Really, how?  And Kirksey isnt any Roquan Smith, not even close.

Played in a similar defense terminology wise in Cleveland. 

[DrDawkinstein]

12 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

He already knows the defense does he?  Really, how?  And Kirksey isnt any Roquan Smith, not even close.

 

Physically, no he is not. But he is the far more experienced vet and already has good experience moving teams and re-learning schemes. Smith only ever knew 1 scheme and was able to jump right into a new scheme.

 

It's not impossible or even unlikely. If it takes him a month, then I'd be concerned about our coaching and/or Kirksey.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, BarleyNY said:

 

I think at this point we’ve seen his ceiling.

 

Deion Jones and Jaylon Smith are still out there. Jones is still a FA and Smith is on a PS. Neither has had a lot of interest this off-season so I’m not sure how much better they’d be than Kirksey. I haven’t seen them play much though. Maybe it is because Kirksey took the deal we were offering to MLBs. I’d be surprised if it was much more than vet minimum plus incentives. 

 

Deion Jones was very very good early in his career.  1st team all pro, DROY, pro bowl.  Did you see anything of him last year in Cleveland?  He's listed as having 5 starts.

 

He was with the Panthers thru training camp but cut on Tuesday.  The contract he signed last spring with the Panthers was just over vet minimum. 

 

Jaylon Smith had been an injury replacement at MLB for the Giants last 2 seasons.  Wound up starting 13 games for them at MLB last year.  Signed with the Saints for vet minimum, cut and now on their practice squad. 

 

 

[BarleyNY]

7 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Deion Jones was very very good early in his career.  1st team all pro, DROY, pro bowl.  Did you see anything of him last year in Cleveland?  He's listed as having 5 starts.

 

He was with the Panthers thru training camp but cut on Tuesday.  The contract he signed last spring with the Panthers was just over vet minimum. 

 

Jaylon Smith had been an injury replacement at MLB for the Giants last 2 seasons.  Wound up starting 13 games for them at MLB last year.  Signed with the Saints for vet minimum, cut and now on their practice squad. 

 

 

 

I don’t really know. Browns fans were excited that he got brought in after Walker got injured, but I had pretty much given up on them by the time he got there. I was more focused on watching the Bills and other, more interesting teams by then. I don’t think that you can appropriately gauge an MLB with Joe Woods running the defense and total garbage at the DT spots anyway. I do know that Jim Schwartz didn’t bring him back this season.

[BillsFanForever19]

2 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

 The Dorian Williams pick is a hard scratcher. Not sure I get it to this day. Maybe, I'm just not that smart. Seems like every draft Beane does a WTF...

 

The Dorian Williams pick is a head scratcher to everyone because everyone was singularly focused on the MLB position. But we also had a need at OLB.

 

The fact is that outside of Matt Milano, we had ZERO OLB's on the roster. So while the MLB's we had were underwhelming, our LB core consisted of 4 MLB's in competition (Bernard, Dodson, Klein, Spector), 1 OLB (Milano), and a Special Teams player who is only technically a LB (Matakevitch).

 

In Rounds 1 & 2, they valued getting a weapon and a starting Offensive Lineman over the MLB position, especially with what was on the board at both picks.

 

When Round 3 started, there were 3 MLB's that could have theoretically pushed Bernard and Dodson and maybe won the job in Drew Sanders, Trenton Simpson, and Daiyan Henley. After them was a MASSIVE drop off in talent in which they felt were probably long term developmental prospects that wouldn't be able to compete and unworthy of selecting in Round 3.

 

All 3 guys got drafted by pick 86. At that point, MLB was out. So looking at the roster, with no MLB on the board left they felt could challenge Dodson, Bernard, Klein, or Spector in Year 1, and having taken care of the last weapon and the last piece of the OL - what was the only real hole left on the roster?

 

An OLB behind Milano.

 

Milano has stayed relatively healthy. But when he's needed a breather or some time, to this point we've had an insane drop off there when he isn't in the lineup. And going into this season, we literally had nothing. Now in Williams, perhaps we have a player that can keep things rolling when Milano needs a breather or God forbid gets hurt.

 

Long story short, Williams was drafted as an OLB. Everyone is confused by it because our MLB's are pedestrian and we were focused on that position. But OLB was a need and that's what he was Drafted for.

Edited August 31, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[Warriorspikes51]

Kirksey has had the honor of being Walter Payton Man of the year nominee on 2 different teams. Not sure if any other players have that distinction.

 

He’s clearly a quality person and his leadership is a welcomed addition to the LB room.

 

he also can be a very effective player in this defense

[Dr. Who]

19 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

The Dorian Williams pick is a head scratcher to everyone because everyone was singularly focused on the MLB position. But we also had a need at OLB.

 

The fact is that outside of Matt Milano, we had ZERO OLB's on the roster. So while the MLB's we had were underwhelming, our LB core consisted of 3 MLB's, 1 OLB, and a Special Teams player who is only technically a LB.

 

In Rounds 1 & 2, they valued getting a weapon and a starting Offensive Lineman over the MLB position, especially with what was on the board at both picks.

 

When Round 3 started, there were 3 MLB's that could have theoretically pushed Bernard and Dodson and maybe won the job in Drew Sanders, Trenton Simpson, and Daiyan Henley. After them was a MASSIVE drop off in talent in which they felt probably wouldn't be able to compete and would be a reach.

 

All 3 guys got drafted by pick 86. At that point, MLB was out. So looking at the roster, with no MLB on the board left they felt could challenge Dodson, Bernard, and Klein in Year 1, and having taken care of the last weapon and the last piece of the OL - what was the only real hole left on the roster?

 

An OLB behind Milano.

 

Milano has stayed relatively healthy. But when he's needed a breather or some time, to this point we've had an insane drop off there when he isn't in the lineup. And going into this season, we literally had nothing. Now in Williams, perhaps we have a player that can keep things rolling when Milano needs a breather or God forbid gets hurt.

 

Long story short, Williams was drafted as an OLB. Everyone is confused by it because our MLB's are pedestrian and we were focused on that position. But OLB was a need and that's what he was Drafted for.

Excellent explanation. The narrative I have more often heard is that MLB is the qb of the defense and it is too much to throw at a rookie. However, I think your rationale is quite persuasive.

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Roquan Smith is a better linebacker but that doesn't mean Kirksey can't pick up a defense quickly.  Guys can pick up a playbook pretty quickly and Kirksey isn't the only late camp cut to start immediately for another team.  Baker Mayfield started for the Rams with just a few days after acquiring him....I assure you a QB's playbook is much more difficult than a MLB.

I’m trying to figure out why people are comparing him to Roquan Smith

 

Roquan Smith should be the better player. He’s certainly being paid more.

 

That doesn’t mean that Kirksey is not a good player in his own, right

 

People seem to forget that our middle linebacker position is a mess like the worst that we have ever seen. Why should they not try to improve the position and why does Kirk so you have to be compared to all pro players

13 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

Kirksey has had the honor of being Walter Payton Man of the year nominee on 2 different teams. Not sure if any other players have that distinction.

 

He’s clearly a quality person and his leadership is a welcomed addition to the LB room.

 

he also can be a very effective player in this defense

It is interesting. I remember there was a poster a while back that asked the question. Where does the leader ship come from this team?
 

Well, Kirksey looks like he could handle that load

[Warriorspikes51]

https://x.com/haprusak/status/1697331191307792658?s=46&t=tTOAq-q5QQ5yQ1o1mKnDgA
 

Micah Hyde is very happy to have him

 

(why does posting this link work normally on my laptop but not my phone??)

Edited August 31, 2023 by Warriorspikes51

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

The Dorian Williams pick is a head scratcher to everyone because everyone was singularly focused on the MLB position. But we also had a need at OLB.

 

The fact is that outside of Matt Milano, we had ZERO OLB's on the roster. So while the MLB's we had were underwhelming, our LB core consisted of 4 MLB's in competition (Bernard, Dodson, Klein, Spector), 1 OLB (Milano), and a Special Teams player who is only technically a LB (Matakevitch).

 

In Rounds 1 & 2, they valued getting a weapon and a starting Offensive Lineman over the MLB position, especially with what was on the board at both picks.

 

When Round 3 started, there were 3 MLB's that could have theoretically pushed Bernard and Dodson and maybe won the job in Drew Sanders, Trenton Simpson, and Daiyan Henley. After them was a MASSIVE drop off in talent in which they felt probably wouldn't be able to compete and would be a reach.

 

All 3 guys got drafted by pick 86. At that point, MLB was out. So looking at the roster, with no MLB on the board left they felt could challenge Dodson, Bernard, and Klein in Year 1, and having taken care of the last weapon and the last piece of the OL - what was the only real hole left on the roster?

 

An OLB behind Milano.

 

Milano has stayed relatively healthy. But when he's needed a breather or some time, to this point we've had an insane drop off there when he isn't in the lineup. And going into this season, we literally had nothing. Now in Williams, perhaps we have a player that can keep things rolling when Milano needs a breather or God forbid gets hurt.

 

Long story short, Williams was drafted as an OLB. Everyone is confused by it because our MLB's are pedestrian and we were focused on that position. But OLB was a need and that's what he was Drafted for.

 

Interesting explanation.

 

It's a fact that when the Bills tried to plug Dodson in for Milano, it did NOT go well.

When the Bills tried to plug AJ Klein in for Milano, someone (might have been @GunnerBill?  Someone who's a respected regular here) called him "the worst LB  I have ever seen".    Fast forward past 2 weeks where Milano is still trying to play and Klein is trying to load share with him.  The Bills admit "this isn't working", they IR Milano, and the Bills defensive brain trust sits down and re-works the defensive responsibilities.

 

BOOM "the worst linebacker I have ever seen" is KILLING Seattle.  4 sacks, a forced fumble he recovered, tackle for loss, pass defensed - AFC Defensive Player of the Week and for the next 3 games he didn't look back.  I guarantee Russ Wilson saw "54" in his sleep for weeks.

 

Anyway, valid point that there has been no "Plan B" to the Guido Torpedo.

 

What I'm not sure about is that the Bills don't see Williams eventually playing MLB.  But they have certainly made it clear, that's not where they see him at present.

[Beck Water]

6 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

https://x.com/haprusak/status/1697331191307792658?s=46&t=tTOAq-q5QQ5yQ1o1mKnDgA
 

Micah Hyde is very happy to have him

 

They played college ball together. 

[Warriorspikes51]

Bold Prediction:  Kirksey makes more impactful plays than Edmunds did and becomes a fan favorite

 

if he can learn the playbook fast enough (he did play under Holcomb in Cleveland) he needs to be starting week 1

[klos63]

21 hours ago, BBFL said:

Theoretically, yes. Body certainly breaks down faster than most people. Also the prospective job market or field you’re in doesn’t have the possibility of being non viable before you even start your adult life…

The correct answer is no. 

 

He's a very suitable age to play MLB in the NFL.

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

The Dorian Williams pick is a head scratcher to everyone because everyone was singularly focused on the MLB position. But we also had a need at OLB.

 

The fact is that outside of Matt Milano, we had ZERO OLB's on the roster. So while the MLB's we had were underwhelming, our LB core consisted of 4 MLB's in competition (Bernard, Dodson, Klein, Spector), 1 OLB (Milano), and a Special Teams player who is only technically a LB (Matakevitch).

 

In Rounds 1 & 2, they valued getting a weapon and a starting Offensive Lineman over the MLB position, especially with what was on the board at both picks.

 

When Round 3 started, there were 3 MLB's that could have theoretically pushed Bernard and Dodson and maybe won the job in Drew Sanders, Trenton Simpson, and Daiyan Henley. After them was a MASSIVE drop off in talent in which they felt probably wouldn't be able to compete and would be a reach.

 

All 3 guys got drafted by pick 86. At that point, MLB was out. So looking at the roster, with no MLB on the board left they felt could challenge Dodson, Bernard, and Klein in Year 1, and having taken care of the last weapon and the last piece of the OL - what was the only real hole left on the roster?

 

An OLB behind Milano.

 

Milano has stayed relatively healthy. But when he's needed a breather or some time, to this point we've had an insane drop off there when he isn't in the lineup. And going into this season, we literally had nothing. Now in Williams, perhaps we have a player that can keep things rolling when Milano needs a breather or God forbid gets hurt.

 

Long story short, Williams was drafted as an OLB. Everyone is confused by it because our MLB's are pedestrian and we were focused on that position. But OLB was a need and that's what he was Drafted for.

 

That's good reasoning.  I will add despite the opinions of a lot of fans (even well-respected posters here) I truly believe Beane and McDermott

see the MLB role changing in the modern NFL to a slightly smaller but quicker player.  They didn't just happen to have a bunch of players like

that on the team for no reason.  I'm not saying Dorian will eventually be that guy but he does fit the mold. 

 

It could be as simple as none of the guys presently on the team can fill the style they hope to find in that position.

Kirksey could be a placeholder and eventual depth once they do find that guy.

[Sierra Foothills]

8 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I think McBeane's philosophy about the position has evolved since drafting Edmunds.   They were running the team with the memory of Keuchle fresh in their minds.  

 

But it's very simple.   If they thought in 2022 and 2023 that middle linebacker was the linchpin in the defense, they would have done something to keep Edmunds or get a high-end replacement.  So far as we can tell, they didn't try at all.  

 

I think what they learned from Edmunds, is that they can have a very good defense without an All-Pro middle linebacker.   Look at the cap room they spent on Miller, Oliver, and Floyd.   There simply can be no question that they believe the game can be played best with talent on the defensive line and less talent at middle linebacker.  Look at the money they spent to re-sign White and keep Poyer, and the draft capital they spent on Elam.  

 

Beane consciously spent more or less nothing on a middle linebacker.  He told us that in his presser.  I don't think there's any question that they're thinking about the defense has evolved since they traded up for Edmunds.  

 

Good post. I believe that they thought Edmunds might be a transcendent player (meaning transcending his positional value) and along with the prior experience with Luke Kuechly caused McBeane to depart from their value chart and draft Edmunds highly.

 

He proved not to be a trandscendent player.

 

8 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

And yet - they just signed a street FA in the hopes that he will step into that role by early season.  And cut outright the guy who was taking starter's reps in the preseason.  

 

Hope is not a plan.

 

Actually hope is often a plan. Every team has roster holes and every team has a position or two where they pin their hopes on a player(s) rising to the occasion and growing into the job. In this case the Bills pinned their hopes on 3 young veterans (Dodson, Bernard, and Spector).

 

It didn't work out partly due to 2 of the players getting injured.

 

6 hours ago, Nephilim17 said:

I agree that recent evidence shows the McBeane don't think that in a passing league MLB is a priority position.

 

But perhaps they had the same or a similar view when they drafted Edmunds but were hoping with his height, reach and speed he could be a unicorn MLB and be a vital asset on the D for the short passing game. But he really wasn't.

 

And now they figure most, if not all MLBs, aren't really a force against passing teams so that's why it's no longer a priority worth much more than low-third-round picks.

 

Exactly... a transcendent player... a unicorn.

 

4 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

I think they were trying to find a Luke Kuechly type like he had in Carolina. It just never materialized. 

 

Agreed.

 

3 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

The Dorian Williams pick is a head scratcher to everyone because everyone was singularly focused on the MLB position. But we also had a need at OLB.

 

The fact is that outside of Matt Milano, we had ZERO OLB's on the roster. So while the MLB's we had were underwhelming, our LB core consisted of 4 MLB's in competition (Bernard, Dodson, Klein, Spector), 1 OLB (Milano), and a Special Teams player who is only technically a LB (Matakevitch).

 

In Rounds 1 & 2, they valued getting a weapon and a starting Offensive Lineman over the MLB position, especially with what was on the board at both picks.

 

When Round 3 started, there were 3 MLB's that could have theoretically pushed Bernard and Dodson and maybe won the job in Drew Sanders, Trenton Simpson, and Daiyan Henley. After them was a MASSIVE drop off in talent in which they felt probably wouldn't be able to compete and would be a reach.

 

All 3 guys got drafted by pick 86. At that point, MLB was out. So looking at the roster, with no MLB on the board left they felt could challenge Dodson, Bernard, and Klein in Year 1, and having taken care of the last weapon and the last piece of the OL - what was the only real hole left on the roster?

 

An OLB behind Milano.

 

Milano has stayed relatively healthy. But when he's needed a breather or some time, to this point we've had an insane drop off there when he isn't in the lineup. And going into this season, we literally had nothing. Now in Williams, perhaps we have a player that can keep things rolling when Milano needs a breather or God forbid gets hurt.

 

Long story short, Williams was drafted as an OLB. Everyone is confused by it because our MLB's are pedestrian and we were focused on that position. But OLB was a need and that's what he was Drafted for.

 

Excellent post. I agree with all of this except I believe the Bills (my guess) will slowly cross train him at MLB as he becomes more familiar with the scheme. You want your best players on the field as much as possible and it won't be long before Williams is the second best LB on the Bills, IMO.

 

[Beck Water]

So if y'all haven't found it yet, check out this Cover1 piece on Kirksey.

 

 

In addition to a lot of film that kind of speaks for itself, they bring up a couple points I hadn't thought of:

1) Kirksey playing coverages successfully in Lovie Smith's Tampa2 last season

2) Bills hired Joe Danna, last year's safety coach in Houston.  Danna should really have the tea on what Kirksey could or couldn't do as of last year.

[Shaw66]

9 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Good question.  He was at one point.  At this stage in his career and coming back from a hammy, I would say "uncertain".

 

What he may be, is an upgrade on AJ Klein as that savvy vet player who knows the defense, can spot what the offense is doing and call the counter, and who can use his knowledge to compensate.

 

Right.  Dodson has the physical tools, so he must have struggled with managing the mental challenges of the position.  I think that's exactly why Kirksey was brought in

  

Klein has the mental skills, but I assume Kirksey is better physically.  That's why Kirksey has been a more consistent starter.