Kirksey signing with the Bills PS

[Shaw66]

5 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

 

Yep. It's great to build a defense around a strong MLB when you happen to have Luke Kuechly.

They may have hoped that Edmunds would be that guy, and of course he wasn't. So maybe some of this has to do with the realization that you aren't gonna find another Kuechly but you can still be a great defense.

Exactly.   Beane has told us that, compared to the other positions, it just isn't that important to have a star in the middle.   At least, that's what they think.   We may find out this season just how undermanned they can afford to be. 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

And yet - they just signed a street FA in the hopes that he will step into that role by early season.  And cut outright the guy who was taking starter's reps in the preseason.  

 

Hope is not a plan.

Why do you say it's "hope"?  We have targeted Kirksey in the past and he's a solid MLB.  The guys that had for the role in camp didn't pan out so they're looking to improve and they're being criticized for it.  I guess it would have been better to do nothing.

[wnyguy]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Exactly.   Beane has told us that, compared to the other positions, it just isn't that important to have a star in the middle.   At least, that's what they think.   We may find out this season just how undermanned they can afford to be. 

I think they will be relying on the interior of the D-Line to clog up the middle and give time for whoever is in the middle to make a tackle? Kirksey has lead his team in tackles more than once so he might be okay there.

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

And yet - they just signed a street FA in the hopes that he will step into that role by early season.  And cut outright the guy who was taking starter's reps in the preseason.  

 

Hope is not a plan.

It's about how important the position is.  

 

I always use the punter as the extreme example.   Teams, including the Bills, have sometimes waited until final cuts to pick up the best punter they can find.   Hope is exactly the plan, and the reason it's not an unreasonable plan is because it just doesn't matter that much to a team's success whether they have the best or the worst punter in the league.   The number of games lost because you have the worst punter is negligible.   

 

Now, you're middle linebacker is more important than your punter, admittedly, but what McBeane are telling us is not all that much more.  Running backs aren't that important, but they signed Harris and Murray.  Middle linebacker must be less important, because they didn't sign or draft anyone to help at the position.  Like a punter, all they did was wait for the final cuts and take the best guy they could find who was out of a job.  

 

I don't see how you can reach any other conclusion.  McDermott told Beane "we'll make do with what we have.  If you can find me an upgrade, great, but not at the expense of losing the other talent we have."   That's clearly what they have done.  

 

In February, you may be able to say "I told you so," but I think Bado is right:  Edmunds isn't the reason the Bills haven't won a Super Bowl, and the middle linebacker, whoever he is, isn't going to be the reason this season, either. 

[wppete]

I just watched his highlights and read up on him and this guy looks like a solid MLB. What am I missing? Why did he get cut? He looks like an upgrade from Edmunds and definitely Dodson and Bernard.

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, wnyguy said:

I think they will be relying on the interior of the D-Line to clog up the middle and give time for whoever is in the middle to make a tackle? Kirksey has lead his team in tackles more than once so he might be okay there.

I think that's correct.  

 

I think, to oversimplify, that Edmunds was very good dropping into coverage and not very good attacking (run stopping and blitzing).  Milano, who has thrived in this defense, is very good attacking and solid dropping.   

 

I think McDermott has decided that the attacking aspect of middle linebacker player (which is what he had in Carolina), is what is critical.  That's what they hoped for in Bernard and what they admittedly saw in Williams.  And that, apparently, is what Kirksey can do, too.  

 

Get a good, attacking defensive line that occupies the oline, and have some good attacking players playing behind the line.  That's what Milano is, that's what Taron Johnson is, and that's what they want in the middle.   Enter Dodson, Bernard, Williams, and now Kirksey.   

[eball]

Just now, wppete said:

I just watched his highlights and read up on him and this guy looks like a solid MLB. What am I missing? Why did he get cut? He looks like an upgrade from Edmunds and definitely Dodson and Bernard.

 

My best guess is that Houston knows they aren’t going anywhere this season, he’s an older (more expensive) veteran, and he got hurt before camp to boot.  Makes sense to let their young guys play and learn on the job.

 

Fortuitous for us, to be sure.

 

 

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, wppete said:

I just watched his highlights and read up on him and this guy looks like a solid MLB. What am I missing? Why did he get cut? He looks like an upgrade from Edmunds and definitely Dodson and Bernard.

He had injury concerns, and he had a relatively big contract that the Texans could unload.  

 

I don't really know the guy, but he seems to be better, more experienced talent than I thought the Bills would find available Tuesday at 4 pm.  I suspect that really savvy NFL people, like Beane, suspected he'd be available.   He had a hammy, saw no preseason action, and Houston didn't seem to be in a hurry to get him back.  With his contract, he seemed like a likely cut to people in the know.    

[BillsFan2313]

16 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Exactly.   Beane has told us that, compared to the other positions, it just isn't that important to have a star in the middle.   At least, that's what they think.   We may find out this season just how undermanned they can afford to be. 

 

Then why did he trade up for Edmunds? 

[ColoradoBills]

1 minute ago, Motorin' said:

 

Kirksey performed last year. 125 tackles, over 80 solo. The most combined tackles Klein has ever had was 75. 

 

Kirksey is a clear upgrade to any LB on the roster not named after an Italian cookie, even if he's more of a WIL than true Mike. 

 

I just wanted to see who Kirksey's LB and DT partners last season with the Texans were.

Woof. 

 

Christian Kirksey - 97% snaps

Christian Harris - 60% snaps - 3rd round rookie who was on IR to start the season and came in Game #6.

Kamu Grugier-Hill - 31% snaps - release from Texans after Christian Harris was activated. 

Jake Hansen - 17% snaps - Rookie UDFA

Blake Cashman - 13% snaps - Former NYJ 5th rounder.

Garret Wallow - 11% snaps - 2nd year Texan 5th rounder.

Jalen Reeves-Maybin snaps- 7% - Former Detroit 5th rounder.  6 years in the league with 14 career starts.

Kevin Pierre-Louis - 4% snaps - 9 year veteran formerly on 6 different teams.

Neville Hewitt - 2% snaps- 8 year veteran.

 

Texans DTs

Maliek Collins - 52% snaps - By far the best DT.  Missed 2 games.

Roy Lopez - 48% snaps - 2nd year Texans 6th rounder.

Kurt Hinish - 37% snaps - Rookie UDFA.

Thomas Booker - 18% snaps - Rookie 5th rounder.

Michael Dwumfour - 17% snaps - 2nd year UDFA.  Waived by the Texans in December.

Jaleel Johnson - 7% snaps - Waived by the Texans in November.

Taylor Stallworth - 2% snaps - 5 year veteran UDFA.

 

I think Kirksey will love having Milano next to him and the Bills DTs in front of him.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, BarleyNY said:

 

I am originally from Cleveland and still follow the Browns too. I watched Kirksey play for six years. He’s possibly an upgrade to what’s on the Bills roster so I’m not knocking the signing. My comments were aimed at those acting like we just signed Bobby Wagner or that he is an upgrade from Edmunds (or even comparable).

 

Kirksey has been a below average to average MLB to date. And he’s had a lot of injury issues. One big caveat is that he has mostly played on poor defensive squads. He only played with decent talent around him for one season in GB. He may do better here with the talent on this defense. Again, it’s a good signing in that it’s better than what we know we have on the roster. Heck, I wouldn’t knock any PS signing under almost any circumstance anyway. But the reaction by some has been ridiculous. 

Fair enough as a reaction to the "he starts week one" "after half time week 2", upgrade from Edmunds because (more tackles in....more games played) gang.  That's been kind of chafing my grits as well.  I think this is a solid cutdown-day signing and it's excellent that we were able to put him on the PS at least to come up to speed in our offense and complete his rehab.  The 53 man roster had questions at backup OT, MLB, and QB and props to Beane for addressing all 3.
 

My point is that I don't think truly below-average players keep getting signed into their 30's.  Kirksey got a second contract from the Browns for 4 years, $38M ($9.5/yr).  They did have some defensive talent at that point with Myles Garrett, Emmanuel Ogbah, and Joe Schoebert - and they re-upped Kirksey at that point even though they switched their defense from 3-4 to 4-3 and moved him outside.  It IS the Browns, but do they really do that for a guy who's below average? For comparison, $9.5M AAV would currently slot him in at #7 ILB in the league, between DeVondre Campbell and Demario Davis.

 

Then Green Bay signed him 2 year, $13M ($6.5/yr) - again, that's not a star, but it's not a "below average" player offer to a 7 year vet who just got cut 2 years into his 2nd contract.  It would currently slot him in at #10 ILB in AAV, between Eric Kendricks and Ju'Whuan Bentley   

 

If we look at the league as an "efficient marketplace" which favors youth, even taking into account that FA get overpaid, Kirksey's contract history says GMs think he's average or above.

 

He HAS struggled with injuries, starting in 2018 after the Browns drafted Baker and the hope was they were going somewhere (and it looked as though they switched back to 3-4?).  Was he trying to "play up to his contract" or find an extra gear to help the Browns to a winning season, and over-extended himself?  Milano did this up to 2020, but he seems to have learned to "play within himself" and change up his technique to help this.  Last year was the first season in 5 years he managed a full season, and starting the season with an injury issue doesn't bode well. 

 

He HAS played on mostly poor defensive squads, though the Browns at least broke even in 2018 (and like I said, had some defensive talent); Green Bay had an OK D in 2020 IIRC.  The Texans also showed flashes towards the end of last season.

To me, this is similar to signing AJ Klein in 2020, when Klein was 29 and just off 2 years starting with the Saints (though we paid Klein a lot more).  What I want to know is what kind of player is Kirksey?  What I mean by that is, in Klein we got below average native athleticism combined with above-average knowledge of the game and ability to read and react to his keys quickly ("Coach Klein" as Micah Hyde calls him), plus willingness to THUMP as a tackler. 

 

What I'm looking for is some info on what kind of player Kirksey is in that regard?

 

 

 

[eball]

1 minute ago, BillsFan2313 said:

 

Then why did he trade up for Edmunds? 

 

Because of his freakish athletic measurables…

 

[BillsFan2313]

Just now, eball said:

 

Because of his freakish athletic measurables…

 

 

Ok... and?

[Coach Tuesday]

Just now, BillsFan2313 said:

 

Ok... and?

And something about “they’ve evolved.”

[DrDawkinstein]

11 minutes ago, wppete said:

I just watched his highlights and read up on him and this guy looks like a solid MLB. What am I missing? Why did he get cut? He looks like an upgrade from Edmunds and definitely Dodson and Bernard.

 

There is an SI.com article posted a few times in this thread that has a decent explanation. Long story short, they save $5.2M on the cap, he had tweaked a hammy at the start of camp, and Demeco Ryans as a D coach and former LB wants to bring in his own guys.

 

edit: found it

https://www.si.com/nfl/texans/news/houston-texans-53-man-roster-cutdown-day-christian-kirksey-demeco-ryans

Edited August 31, 2023 by DrDawkinstein

[BADOLBILZ]

35 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

True, I didn't see the INTs, the forced fumbles, the sacks.

But that's a narrow view of what counts as "making mistakes." Not giving up the big play, making an offense sustain a 12 play drive without a holding penalty, a dropped catch, a false start causing a 1st and 15 ... all of those things are critical to a bend but don't break philosophy. And Edmunds was a very good fit for that.

 

 

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth here...........you literally said a low 50's PFF level......which Edmunds had in his first 4 seasons........was "really bad" in McD's scheme.

 

Now you are giving him credit for causing false starts?    C'mon now.

 

The reality is that his level of play worked in all of those seasons where he performed at a Kirksey-esque overall level............it wasn't "really bad"..........it was the defensive equivalent of Devin Singletary.

 

Plenty adequate to win a SB with...........but Edmunds is like a RB with a good very ypa who just isn't a threat in the passing game.    That's a legitimate disappointment for a mid-first round pick at a devalued position. 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by BADOLBILZ

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

After getting a good look at the reports on the guy, and with what we had seen up until that point I can't imagine this move as anything but a net plus.

 

Going in, the model seems to be to have one big hole clogger in the middle (Poona Ford) and one gap penetrator (Oliver) to let one LB attack and one LB cover (Milano). With Taylor Rapp and Taron Johnson, along with a stable of CB2 options I think the plan was to decrease the importance of MLB as much as possible with a lot of heavy nickel/dime looks.

 

Getting a guy who can  be an average state is better than what we have and will not be the lynchpin of the defense. That's going to be the safety group (I think)

5 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

There is an SI.com article posted a few times in this thread that has a decent explanation. Long story short, they save $5.2M on the cap, he had tweaked a hammy at the start of camp, and Demeco Ryans as a D coach and former LB wants to bring in his own guys.

 

edit: found it

https://www.si.com/nfl/texans/news/houston-texans-53-man-roster-cutdown-day-christian-kirksey-demeco-ryans

New coach, player over 30, injury history, cap space in a cut...yeah it's a common story. You just see it more at the opening of free agency 

[JohnBonhamRocks]

55 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Kirksey performed last year. 125 tackles, over 80 solo. The most combined tackles Klein has ever had was 75. 

 

Kirksey is a clear upgrade to any LB on the roster not named after an Italian cookie, even if he's more of a WIL than true Mike. 

Clearly you’ve never enjoyed a fresh Vanilla Matakeviché Al Forno

[Shaw66]

21 minutes ago, BillsFan2313 said:

 

Then why did he trade up for Edmunds? 

Their thinking about the position has evolved.  

[BuffaloRebound]

Kirksey surprisingly has made $37m so far in his NFL career.  Dude must really love football if he’s willing to be on the practice squad and then be making the vet minimum if he actually gets called up to the 53 man roster 

Edited August 31, 2023 by BuffaloRebound