Kirksey signing with the Bills PS

[Ga boy]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Edmunds had amazing range.  He covered a lot of space.  Given how much he was in the vicinity,  it was surprising how relatively few plays he made.  

Maybe he was protecting himself from injury and the big hit.  You would think that he could’ve put some hurt on guys, like Lewis.  I see Diggs curling up and collapsing to protect himself.  It’s paid off for both.

[Shaw66]

5 minutes ago, Ga boy said:

Maybe he was protecting himself from injury and the big hit.  You would think that he could’ve put some hurt on guys, like Lewis.  I see Diggs curling up and collapsing to protect himself.  It’s paid off for both.

It's the difference between offense and defense.  Except for running backs, offensive skill position players often protect themselves.  That's a change from the old days, when everyone was expected to be aggressive hitters.  On defense, there's not a lot of room for guys who don't punish ball carriers.  If Edmunds was protecting himself for five years to be sure he got a contract, well, the Bills should have dumped him earlier.   Especially for a guy who plays in the middle, he is one of the least aggressive hitters I've seen in recent years.  

[Dr. Who]

40 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

It's the difference between offense and defense.  Except for running backs, offensive skill position players often protect themselves.  That's a change from the old days, when everyone was expected to be aggressive hitters.  On defense, there's not a lot of room for guys who don't punish ball carriers.  If Edmunds was protecting himself for five years to be sure he got a contract, well, the Bills should have dumped him earlier.   Especially for a guy who plays in the middle, he is one of the least aggressive hitters I've seen in recent years.  

So disappointing. I expected more from a Klingon.

[Beck Water]

28 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

It's the difference between offense and defense.  Except for running backs, offensive skill position players often protect themselves.  That's a change from the old days, when everyone was expected to be aggressive hitters.  On defense, there's not a lot of room for guys who don't punish ball carriers.  If Edmunds was protecting himself for five years to be sure he got a contract, well, the Bills should have dumped him earlier.   Especially for a guy who plays in the middle, he is one of the least aggressive hitters I've seen in recent years.  

 

I'm not gonna get into defending Edmunds as a hitter.

 

I'll just point out that some of the biggest hits (and by extension, biggest hitters) are actually poor tackling technique.  Donte Whitner exemplified this Back in Da Day.  He would go for the BOOM! but if the opponent managed to deflect, they were gone and Whitner was trying to pick himself up off the turf and recover to pursue.

There's actually a stat kept around missed tackles.  Like the drop stat, it is not an official NFL stat, has some subjectivity behind it, and the different statistical services who provide it may differ a bit.

 

Anyway, Tremaine Edmunds was scored with one (1) missed tackle - 1% missed tackles - last season.

Milano, who to (my perception anyway) is a much more aggressive hitter, had 13 missed tackles, 11.6%.

 

I'm not trying to knock on Milano, just to point out that "aggressive hitting" is a mixed blessing from the point of view of a defense.

[Coach Tuesday]

5 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I'm not gonna get into defending Edmunds as a hitter.

 

I'll just point out that some of the biggest hits (and by extension, biggest hitters) are actually poor tackling technique.  Donte Whitner exemplified this Back in Da Day.  He would go for the BOOM! but if the opponent managed to deflect, they were gone and Whitner was trying to pick himself up off the turf and recover to pursue.

There's actually a stat kept around missed tackles.  Like the drop stat, it is not an official NFL stat, has some subjectivity behind it, and the different statistical services who provide it may differ a bit.

 

Anyway, Tremaine Edmunds was scored with one (1) missed tackle - 1% missed tackles - last season.

Milano, who to (my perception anyway) is a much more aggressive hitter, had 13 missed tackles, 11.6%.

 

I'm not trying to knock on Milano, just to point out that "aggressive hitting" is a mixed blessing from the point of view of a defense.

Agree with this.  Edmunds’ tackling style is more of the crocodile-death-roll where he grabs the legs and twists.  Not exactly how they teach it but it does the job.  The issue is he is so tall and top-heavy that the shorter ball carrier often twists forward for a couple of extra yards during the tackle.

 

As compared to Winfield who, despite being 5’7”, ended the play at the point of contact every single time.

[Shaw66]

24 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I'm not gonna get into defending Edmunds as a hitter.

 

I'll just point out that some of the biggest hits (and by extension, biggest hitters) are actually poor tackling technique.  Donte Whitner exemplified this Back in Da Day.  He would go for the BOOM! but if the opponent managed to deflect, they were gone and Whitner was trying to pick himself up off the turf and recover to pursue.

There's actually a stat kept around missed tackles.  Like the drop stat, it is not an official NFL stat, has some subjectivity behind it, and the different statistical services who provide it may differ a bit.

 

Anyway, Tremaine Edmunds was scored with one (1) missed tackle - 1% missed tackles - last season.

Milano, who to (my perception anyway) is a much more aggressive hitter, had 13 missed tackles, 11.6%.

 

I'm not trying to knock on Milano, just to point out that "aggressive hitting" is a mixed blessing from the point of view of a defense.

That's interesting.   Thanks.   

 

Strictly based on my own eye test, I would guess that Edmunds put up that stat (which is pretty amazing) because he rarely laid out to hit someone, and he rarely came in hard and lead with his shoulder.  His tackling style is to hug the ball carrier and wrestle him down.  He's a big guy, so when he can get close enough to hug the guy, he's going down.   

 

I would guess that what doesn't show up in that stat are the times that he didn't attempt the tackle because he was coming on the scene passively.   

 

And he rarely made tackles driving the ball carrier back toward the line of scrimmage; he'd hug the guy and get dragged downfield a bit.

 

I think running backs knew they weren't going to get punished running up the middle, and that's not what you want running backs thinking.  They thought, "The big guy may tackle me, but he isn't going to hurt me."

 

His gap discipline was pretty bad early in his career, but he cleaned that up as the seasons went by.   

 

Now, I was a pretty big Edmunds defender while he was here, because I thought he was an important part of the pass defense, but i never defended his run-stopping or blitzing.  

 

As others have said, McBeane hoped he would grow into a transcendent linebacker, but he never did.  I think their experience with Edmunds caused them to refine their thinking a bit.  I think they now think that they need a guy with quickness and physical toughness in the middle, a guy who is solid but not necessarily a star in the pass defense.  I think they kept hoping Klein would emerge as a solid pass defender, but he just couldn't do it.  They've seen Kirksey on film, and I'm guessing he can give them what they need.  I'm sure they're still hoping one of Dodson, Bernard, or Williams will emerge.  

Edited September 2, 2023 by Shaw66

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, maddenboy said:

i dont think the point of the bend-but-dont-break philosophy is to wait for the opponent to make mistakes.

 

you cant just say, (for example):  on average, a 12 play drive will yield X number of penalties, Y number of dropped passes, and Z number of missed field goals.

 

The point of the bend-dont-break is to capitalize on those mistakes.  Where capitalize does not just mean 'eventually get the ball back.'

 

sacks.  forced fumbles.  QB hits.  Opponents geting frustrated and commiting personal fouls.  Tricking QBs. 

 

 

Edmunds gave you none of that.   Dont tell me it wasnt his job and i dont know his assignment, etc.   

I think the only time on Defense where your assignment does not involve making a play is either (1) eating a double team, or (2) setting the edge.   Otherwise, your assignment should be to do your role, so you can be in position to make a play if it presents. 

 

Never happened with Edmunds.  He was like the employee whose priority was to not get fired.  No thought of advancement.

 

 

 

Yeah sometimes the mistake is just a QB checking down a pass to a RB over the middle but putting it in a spot where they have to stop completely or reach back or over-extend.........and there were plays practically every game where this happened right in front of Edmunds.........and rather than take advantage of this already neutralized target by going for the ball Edmunds would just hug tackle them and allow the short gain. 

 

It's astounding that a guy with his reach hasn't forced a single fumble in the regular season since very early in the 2018........70 games played since the last.

 

[LABILLBACKER]

49 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I'm not gonna get into defending Edmunds as a hitter.

 

I'll just point out that some of the biggest hits (and by extension, biggest hitters) are actually poor tackling technique.  Donte Whitner exemplified this Back in Da Day.  He would go for the BOOM! but if the opponent managed to deflect, they were gone and Whitner was trying to pick himself up off the turf and recover to pursue.

There's actually a stat kept around missed tackles.  Like the drop stat, it is not an official NFL stat, has some subjectivity behind it, and the different statistical services who provide it may differ a bit.

 

Anyway, Tremaine Edmunds was scored with one (1) missed tackle - 1% missed tackles - last season.

Milano, who to (my perception anyway) is a much more aggressive hitter, had 13 missed tackles, 11.6%.

 

I'm not trying to knock on Milano, just to point out that "aggressive hitting" is a mixed blessing from the point of view of a defense.

If you compare both Milano and Tremaine side by side, Milano had a higher solo tackle percentage of 68 compared to Tremaine 's 63.  Tremaine had his best year on year 2 with an AV of 14. It went down every year after that.  Milano's all pro season last year was an AV of 19.  It just seemed like whenever TE made a tackle there was help involved. 

[RochesterLifer]

My concern with Edmunds' departure is the extra demands his absence will place on our DBs. Nobody will deny he took a lot of space in the middle. White and CB2 (TBD) will have to cover a bit more inside. Poyer and Hyde (aging and coming off injuries) will be responsible for more space in front of them. It's a game of inches and we may see a lower rate of success among our DBs as they miss the help they got in all directions from Edmunds. Time will tell, but this is my '23 concern.

Edited September 2, 2023 by RochesterLifer

[Bob in STL]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

I'm not gonna get into defending Edmunds as a hitter.

 

I'll just point out that some of the biggest hits (and by extension, biggest hitters) are actually poor tackling technique.  Donte Whitner exemplified this Back in Da Day.  He would go for the BOOM! but if the opponent managed to deflect, they were gone and Whitner was trying to pick himself up off the turf and recover to pursue.

There's actually a stat kept around missed tackles.  Like the drop stat, it is not an official NFL stat, has some subjectivity behind it, and the different statistical services who provide it may differ a bit.

 

Anyway, Tremaine Edmunds was scored with one (1) missed tackle - 1% missed tackles - last season.

Milano, who to (my perception anyway) is a much more aggressive hitter, had 13 missed tackles, 11.6%.

 

I'm not trying to knock on Milano, just to point out that "aggressive hitting" is a mixed blessing from the point of view of a defense.

It might be interesting to see Milano's 13 missed tackles.  I bet that some of them are on plays when most LB's would not have been in the play to miss the tackle.   

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, Beck Water said:

Anyway, Tremaine Edmunds was scored with one (1) missed tackle - 1% missed tackles - last season.

Milano, who to (my perception anyway) is a much more aggressive hitter, had 13 missed tackles, 11.6%.

 

I think having a 1% missed tackle rate is kind of like having a 1% interception rate. In theory it looks good on paper but in reality it means you aren't pushing the envelope enough to create big plays.

[Allen2Moulds]

4 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Edmunds had amazing range.  He covered a lot of space.  Given how much he was in the vicinity,  it was surprising how relatively few plays he made.  

He had everything but the instincts. 

[Beck Water]

21 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I think having a 1% missed tackle rate is kind of like having a 1% interception rate. In theory it looks good on paper but in reality it means you aren't pushing the envelope enough to create big plays.

 

That's one POV.  Another POV is that you're trading some *thump* and some TFL for the sure wrap-and-tackle

 

For Edmunds, probably some truth to both.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Bob in STL said:

It might be interesting to see Milano's 13 missed tackles.  I bet that some of them are on plays when most LB's would not have been in the play to miss the tackle.   

 

With scoring "drops", they're only supposed to score as drops 'a pass that a WR should catch with ordinary effort' ie, that hits the WR on the hands or within a rough rectangle from his upper thighs to just over his head and on either side such that he could still 2 hand it - which means they don't count a number of catches we fans look at and say "a top NFL WR needs to make that".

 

Similar deal supposed to be the case with missed tackles - they aren't supposed to score as missed, a tackle where the LB has to make extraordinary effort.

 

I think Milano has made an effort the last couple years to let some tackles go or shoe-string them from behind, where he would previously stick out one arm and risk injuring a shoulder or tearing a pec.  And it still worked for the Bills last season because he'd slow the guy down and Edmunds or Poyer would seal it.

 

But yeah, I'd like to see them too.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

That's interesting.   Thanks.   

 

Strictly based on my own eye test, I would guess that Edmunds put up that stat (which is pretty amazing) because he rarely laid out to hit someone, and he rarely came in hard and lead with his shoulder.  His tackling style is to hug the ball carrier and wrestle him down.  He's a big guy, so when he can get close enough to hug the guy, he's going down.   

 

I would guess that what doesn't show up in that stat are the times that he didn't attempt the tackle because he was coming on the scene passively.   

 

And he rarely made tackles driving the ball carrier back toward the line of scrimmage; he'd hug the guy and get dragged downfield a bit.

 

I think running backs knew they weren't going to get punished running up the middle, and that's not what you want running backs thinking.  They thought, "The big guy may tackle me, but he isn't going to hurt me."

 

His gap discipline was pretty bad early in his career, but he cleaned that up as the seasons went by.   

 

Now, I was a pretty big Edmunds defender while he was here, because I thought he was an important part of the pass defense, but i never defended his run-stopping or blitzing.  

 

As others have said, McBeane hoped he would grow into a transcendent linebacker, but he never did.  I think their experience with Edmunds caused them to refine their thinking a bit.  I think they now think that they need a guy with quickness and physical toughness in the middle, a guy who is solid but not necessarily a star in the pass defense.  I think they kept hoping Klein would emerge as a solid pass defender, but he just couldn't do it.  They've seen Kirksey on film, and I'm guessing he can give them what they need.  I'm sure they're still hoping one of Dodson, Bernard, or Williams will emerge.  

 

I think that's a pretty fair take.  Depending upon what you mean by wrap, that may actually be good tackling technique, but of course getting dragged downfield is not.  When Poyer or Milano tackles, guys generally know they've been hit.

 

I do feel that Edmunds got more aggressive tackling the last 2 years.  IIRC, in 2020 he was playing almost all season with an AC Joint sprain (injured 1st or 2nd game), which made him tentative.

[Nephilim17]

1 hour ago, Allen2Moulds said:

He had everything but the instincts. 

I might ad ferocity to that. I know playing for the big hit can lead to mistakes, but how good would it be to have a linebacker who made slot guys and TEs afraid to catch it over the middle? I think instilling that kind of fear can be factor for at least some opponents. How bad do you really want that ball on the slant route? 

[Shaw66]

5 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think that's a pretty fair take.  Depending upon what you mean by wrap, that may actually be good tackling technique, but of course getting dragged downfield is not.  When Poyer or Milano tackles, guys generally know they've been hit.

 

I do feel that Edmunds got more aggressive tackling the last 2 years.  IIRC, in 2020 he was playing almost all season with an AC Joint sprain (injured 1st or 2nd game), which made him tentative.

Yeah, it was pretty clear to me that aggressive tackling was somethin he was working on.   It didn't come naturally, but he made a go at it. 

[starrymessenger]

7 hours ago, Allen2Moulds said:

He had everything but the instincts. 

I think he also just lacked being a badass, a person with bad intentions. His athletic traits are elite. If he had more hasty he could be legendary. What has been said about his tackling technique is accurate. I think the reason for it has everything in to do with personality. The few times I saw him hit with an edge he was an absolute wrecking ball (although once his victim was Dane Jackson).

The Bears got the player we know, for good or ill. That's not going to change.

[balln]

12 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Edmunds had amazing range.  He covered a lot of space.  Given how much he was in the vicinity,  it was surprising how relatively few plays he made.  

That’s because he has no instincts. Takes a bit of anticipation and gamble to make plays. Unfortunately he has very little of that 

[MasterStrategist]

Bottom line, we need more "splash"/impactul plays from our new MLB. 

 

As much as I liked the "potential" of Tremaine, he never made the impactful plays.  Reliable but not exceptional player and bmnever thought he was a "natural leader" (something he got much better at).  Glad he got the contract he received, but that again was based on "potential".

 

Even if it's piecing together a MLB, subpackages/etc, I'm hoping we can get more impactful plays and more aggression.