BillStime Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 Fourteenth Amendment Section 3 | Constitution Annotated | Congress.gov | Library of Congress No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability. Trump to far-right extremists: STAND DOWN and STAND BY A lot of aiding and comforting going on here: 1 1 1
The Frankish Reich Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 I don't agree with this approach, trying to disqualify him from the ballot based on the 14th Amendment. The proper constitutional approach was to impeach him, which happened, but did not succeed. (All you Ron DeSantis types out there - bet you wish that had succeeded) This is unlike the prosecutions, which I believe are valid and of varying strength/merit. Bragg NY prosecution: stupid, and a shaky legal theory Smith classified docs prosecution: solid and proper Smith Jan 6 prosecution: meritorious and necessary, but far from a slam dunk Willis GA prosecution: the best thought-out, but very complex and will depend on proof 2 1
BillStime Posted August 30, 2023 Author Posted August 30, 2023 8 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: I don't agree with this approach, trying to disqualify him from the ballot based on the 14th Amendment. I don’t agree with how the right bastardized the second amendment but it’s in the constitution.
TSOL Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 Wow '16 really did break you guys badly huh 4 1 1 1
Tiberius Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 Just now, TSOL said: Wow '16 really did break you guys badly huh Ya, all the winning since then is a really bummer 🤣 2 1
TSOL Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 You guys just want to be able to run any sham candidate you want completely unopposed Are you really this scared of Trump/ conservatives Don't answer, we already know 1
BillStime Posted August 30, 2023 Author Posted August 30, 2023 5 minutes ago, TSOL said: Wow '16 really did break you guys badly huh Why cherry pick what’s in the constitution? The 14th Amendment is in there for a reason. 1
TSOL Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 4 minutes ago, BillStime said: Why cherry pick what’s in the constitution? The 14th Amendment is in there for a reason. Yeah I was looking at that when I was arguing with one of you booger eaters last week or so. I found it inconclusive You guys are the ones who want to be ble to cancel your political rivals and amendments to the Constitution. 2
ChiGoose Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 I remain skeptical of "one weird trick" ploys to beat Trump. Gotta do it at the ballot box. Can't count on stuff like this. 3 1
Tommy Callahan Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 Anything to keep him off the ballot. amirite And if he is, time for something to drive mass mail voting/harvesting. 1
The Frankish Reich Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 30 minutes ago, BillStime said: I don’t agree with how the right bastardized the second amendment but it’s in the constitution. You do have a point there. The words, standing alone, wouldn't support a reading that this clause was limited to those who engaged in or aided/abetted the rebellion of the insurrection in the southern states that led to the Civil War. What I see from the Supreme Court lately is this: the conservative faction says that we should rely on the words themselves and avoid contextual analysis. Unless, of course, the words themselves would lead to a conclusion they'd rather not reach ... 1 1 1
BillStime Posted August 30, 2023 Author Posted August 30, 2023 25 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: I remain skeptical of "one weird trick" ploys to beat Trump. Gotta do it at the ballot box. Can't count on stuff like this. How many tricks does Trump get to overturn an election? 1
ChiGoose Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 (edited) 13 minutes ago, BillStime said: How many tricks does Trump get to overturn an election? He should be prosecuted in accordance with the law. But there is a tendency to look for someone to "save us" from Trump that seems to try to downplay the reality that the only sure thing that can prevent him from winning is voters. Mueller was lionized as the guy who was going to get Trump even though it was known he wouldn't recommend prosecution no matter what because it would be against DOJ policy. So instead of doing things like investigating emoluments issues, money laundering and other Trump crimes, the Dems in Congress just sat back and assumed Mueller would take care of it. When he instead gave them an impeachment roadmap, they just shrugged and ignored it Remember freaking Avenatti? The scumbag lawyer that people thought was a hero when he was just a grifter? The second impeachment was rushed because the Dems wanted to act immediately, which lead to a lot of evidence not being included. Though I suppose that doesn't matter because there wouldn't be enough GOP senators to convict if Trump had murdered Mitch McConnell on the senate floor With the indictments, people hope he'll be convicted before the election. He may be. He might not be. It's not something that should be counted on and he can run from prison if he wants to anyway. Even if there is merit to the 14th Amendment claim (and there might be), it's not going to happen. It's just not. And it wouldn't be accepted by about half the country if it did The only thing that's going to stop Trump is the voters. Or maybe a Filet O'Fish sandwich Edited August 30, 2023 by ChiGoose 5 1
BillStime Posted August 30, 2023 Author Posted August 30, 2023 34 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: He should be prosecuted in accordance with the law. But there is a tendency to look for someone to "save us" from Trump that seems to try to downplay the reality that the only sure thing that can prevent him from winning is voters. Mueller was lionized as the guy who was going to get Trump even though it was known he wouldn't recommend prosecution no matter what because it would be against DOJ policy. So instead of doing things like investigating emoluments issues, money laundering and other Trump crimes, the Dems in Congress just sat back and assumed Mueller would take care of it. When he instead gave them an impeachment roadmap, they just shrugged and ignored it Remember freaking Avenatti? The scumbag lawyer that people thought was a hero when he was just a grifter? The second impeachment was rushed because the Dems wanted to act immediately, which lead to a lot of evidence not being included. Though I suppose that doesn't matter because there wouldn't be enough GOP senators to convict if Trump had murdered Mitch McConnell on the senate floor With the indictments, people hope he'll be convicted before the election. He may be. He might not be. It's not something that should be counted on and he can run from prison if he wants to anyway. Even if there is merit to the 14th Amendment claim (and there might be), it's not going to happen. It's just not. And it wouldn't be accepted by about half the country if it did The only thing that's going to stop Trump is the voters. Or maybe a Filet O'Fish sandwich I'm not looking for anyone to save us from Trump. Democratic voters continue to do that over and over and over again since 2016 and that won't change in 2024 when pissed off women, young people and independents come out against Conald Trump. But tell me - what is the purpose of the Constitution? 1
All_Pro_Bills Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Frankish Reich said: I don't agree with this approach, trying to disqualify him from the ballot based on the 14th Amendment. The proper constitutional approach was to impeach him, which happened, but did not succeed. (All you Ron DeSantis types out there - bet you wish that had succeeded) This is unlike the prosecutions, which I believe are valid and of varying strength/merit. Bragg NY prosecution: stupid, and a shaky legal theory Smith classified docs prosecution: solid and proper Smith Jan 6 prosecution: meritorious and necessary, but far from a slam dunk Willis GA prosecution: the best thought-out, but very complex and will depend on proof Smith's J6 charges are double jeopardy as defined in A5. "Nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be put in jeopardy of life or limb." The Semate acquited Trump of all J6 charges under the House articles of impeachment. Smith's charges are moot. They are materially similar and refernce the same act. You can't be charged with conspiracy or obstruction of an act the court, in this case the Senate, has already determined you are innocent of and therefore had no involvement. The mystery is how Trump's legal team has been asleep at the wheel in filing any motions to dismiss or petition the Supreme Court directly. Edited August 30, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills
ChiGoose Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 6 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: Smith's J6 charges are double jeopardy as defined in A5. "Nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be put in jeopardy of life or limb." The Semate acquited Trump of all J6 charges under the House articles of impeachment. Smith's charges are moot. They are materially similar and refernce the same act. You can't be charged with conspiracy or obstruction of an act the court, in this case the Senate, has already determined you are innocent of and therefore had no involvement. The mystery is how Trump's legal team has been asleep at the wheel in filing any motions to dismiss or petition the Supreme Court directly. This... is not how that works. The reason Trump's lawyers haven't raised this is probably because they want to keep their licenses. 1
BillStime Posted August 30, 2023 Author Posted August 30, 2023 It's hilarious - the cult talks about the 25th amendment EVERY day here... yet we should dismiss the 14th. Can't make this up. 1
All_Pro_Bills Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 4 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: This... is not how that works. The reason Trump's lawyers haven't raised this is probably because they want to keep their licenses. Its not how what specifically works? Show me legal precedent where a President was tried and acquited by Congress and then indicted for participating in the same crime after leaving office. 1
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 1 hour ago, Chris farley said: Anything to keep him off the ballot. amirite And if he is, time for something to drive mass mail voting/harvesting. still totally positive they want him to win the primary 1
ChiGoose Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 16 minutes ago, BillStime said: I'm not looking for anyone to save us from Trump. Democratic voters continue to do that over and over and over again since 2016 and that won't change in 2024 when pissed off women, young people and independents come out against Conald Trump. But tell me - what is the purpose of the Constitution? The Constitution is an imperfect document. It was written over 200 years ago in a very different world. It didn't anticipate the modern world and it certainly didn't anticipate Donald Trump (though the Founders were quite worried about someone like him arising). So things like the 14th Amendment's disbarment clause are not super clear and lead to differing opinions. Is it self-executing? Does it require a finding of insurrection? If so, by whom and how? You can test it, have some body with standing move to disbar Trump. But that could have been done two years ago. Nothing relevant has changed in that time. So it feels a bit HashtagResistance-y and the latest in a line of "one weird tricks." Organize. Donate (especially monthly recurring donations). Volunteer. Vote. GOTV. That's the only way. 1
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