PSE has been "Dissolved"

[Doc]

7 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

That's not true.  For example, Rams owner Stan Kroenke owns the Denver Nuggets, LA Rams, and Colorado Avalanche, the MLS Colorado Rapids and some Euro soccer teams.  He did not acquire all of these teams at the same time.  He's won championships with the Rams, Nuggets, and Avalanche, so I suspect that he has a good feel for putting good people in place when running a professional sports franchise.  Many other professional sports owners either own multiple teams, like Kroenke, or often sell one team (or their interest in it) and buy into others.  Sometimes it's majority owners and sometimes minority owners like Magic Johnson, who owned a small piece of the LA Lakers and later bought a minority share of the LA Dodgers.

 

I agree that most pro sports owners don't make their initial fortune in sports (it's usually real estate, oil, capital management, etc.), but some owners have experience in professional sports when they buy a team.  The Pegulas did not have any such experience.

 

So one owner out of 32?  You're basically making his point.  Never mind that Kroenke ripped his home state's football team from it and moved it to LA purely just to make more money.

[RoyBatty is alive]

In related news, Jessica Pegula just won her first match in the US Open!

[PromoTheRobot]

31 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

 

That's not true.  For example, Rams owner Stan Kroenke owns the Denver Nuggets, LA Rams, and Colorado Avalanche, the MLS Colorado Rapids and some Euro soccer teams.  He did not acquire all of these teams at the same time.  He's won championships with the Rams, Nuggets, and Avalanche, so I suspect that he has a good feel for putting good people in place when running a professional sports franchise.  Many other professional sports owners either own multiple teams, like Kroenke, or often sell one team (or their interest in it) and buy into others.  Sometimes it's majority owners and sometimes minority owners like Magic Johnson, who owned a small piece of the LA Lakers and later bought a minority share of the LA Dodgers.

 

I agree that most pro sports owners don't make their initial fortune in sports (it's usually real estate, oil, capital management, etc.), but some owners have experience in professional sports when they buy a team.  The Pegulas did not have any such experience.

 

I hope you aren't holding Stan Kroenke up as an example of what we want in Buffalo.

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

It's hard to miss the NHL playoffs for 12 years.  

 

 

Actually it's easier than ever. 32 teams, half get in. There was once a time when there were 21 teams and 16 got in. 

[LabattBlue]

Half the NHL teams make the playoffs each year, and yet the Sabres have missed 12 years in a row. There is no way around it, the Pegula era has been an all-time bad NHL disaster, and yes while they appear to be looking up, they are still in a drought until they make the playoffs.  This year they are putting all their eggs in the Devon Levi basket…he of a whopping 7 career NHL games. 

 

We will see. 

[msw2112]

28 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

I hope you aren't holding Stan Kroenke up as an example of what we want in Buffalo.

 

It depends on what you mean by "example."  He has won titles in the NFL, NHL, and NBA, so sure, I'd sign up for some of that.  He's had some successful GMs, coaches and players on his rosters.

 

Personally, I think the guy is a scumbag.  He screwed the city of St. Louis to make a buck that he certainly didn't need.  His new stadium in LA was a big factor in luring the Chargers out of San Diego, screwing that fanbase too.

 

I've been on this board long enough that I should know better, but the only point I was trying to make is that the Pegulas were novices in the sports industry when they bought the Buffalo teams and they struggled out of the gate.   After gaining more experience, they have improved the quality of their hires and the quality of their teams.  The Sabres took a lot more trial and error than the Bills and it has been a long and painful ride for Sabres fans, but they seem to have figured it out.

 

I simply cited the example of Kronke as a guy with pro sports experience when he bought some of his teams.  How does that translate to me being a fan of Kronke or wanting someone like him for Buffalo?

Edited August 29, 2023 by msw2112

[msw2112]

52 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

So one owner out of 32?  You're basically making his point.  Never mind that Kroenke ripped his home state's football team from it and moved it to LA purely just to make more money.

 

There are numerous examples.  I cited two, Kronke (who I'm no fan of, but was simply making the point that he had pro sports experience when he bought some of his teams), and Magic Johnson (a minority owner in first the Lakers, and later, the Dodgers).  Jeremy Jacobs once owned the NBA franchise that is now the Sacramento Kings and now own the Boston Bruins.  Jerry Reinsdorf owned the Chicago White Sox and later bought the Bulls (and still owns both).  Ted Turner owned the Atlanta Braves, Hawks and Thrashers.  Ted Leonis owns the Washington Capitals and Wizards.  Paul Allen owns the Portland Trailblazers and Seattle Seahawks.  Wayne Huzienga owned the Florida Marlins and Miami Dolphins.  Tom Hicks owned the Dallas Stars and Texas Rangers.

 

So, no, I am not making his point.  There are clearly many more examples than "one owner out of 32."

 

Not all of these owners have had success with each team, but many have.  Kronke has titles in the NFL, NHL, and NBA.  The patient rebuild of the Avalanche was similar to the rebuild the Sabres are doing now.  Kronke may be a selfish prick and a money monger, but he did a good job being patient and letting his hockey people build a great team.  He also let his GM blow up the cap to bring in Matthew Stafford, OBJ, Jalen Ramsey and other big names (the complete opposite approach to the Avalanche rebuild) and got a Super Bowl for the Rams.  The Nuggets were something in the middle, but more similar to the Avalanche, building around Jokic and Murray with some strong role players and a great coach.  Magic has titles with the Lakers and Dodgers.  Jacobs has a title with the Bruins.  Reinsdorf has titles with the Bulls (6) and White Sox (1).  Turner has a title with the Braves, Leonis has one with the Capitals, Allen has one with the Seahawks, and it pains me to say it, but Hicks has one with the Stars (despite the obvious fact that Hull's skate was in the crease).

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by msw2112

[Jauronimo]

4 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

 

There are numerous examples.  I cited two, Kronke (who I'm no fan of, but was simply making the point that he had pro sports experience when he bought some of his teams), and Magic Johnson (a minority owner in first the Lakers, and later, the Dodgers).  Jeremy Jacobs once owned the NBA franchise that is now the Sacramento Kings and now own the Boston Bruins.  Jerry Reinsdorf owned the Chicago White Sox and later bought the Bulls (and still owns both).  Ted Turner owned the Atlanta Braves, Hawks and Thrashers.  Ted Leonis owns the Washington Capitals and Wizards.  Paul Allen owns the Portland Trailblazers and Seattle Seahawks.  Wayne Huzienga owned the Florida Marlins and Miami Dolphins.  Tom Hicks owned the Dallas Stars and Texas Rangers.

 

So, no, I am not making his point.

Here's the rest of the NFL and NHL.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NHL_franchise_owners

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFL_franchise_owners

 

Nearly all are first time owners or they inherited teams from their parents.  "Novices to sports management" is a silly criticism to levy at an owner.  You make it sound like there is a traditional route to owning an NFL or NHL franchise that they skipped along the way.  Meanhwile there are owners who have been in the game for 6 decades who still make "novice" mistakes and meddle in affairs they should stay out of.

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

The success with the Bills, despite the early hiccups, is the greatest entry he could have.  The NFL is the premier sports league in the world.

 

But yes, I brought up selling 25% and having the minority owner run the day-to-day stuff.  Again no reason to completely sell the team now that they're finally good again.

 

 

Selling it gets him the entire windfall.  Why keep 25%?  So he can feel the thrill of a  minority owner? I would take the extra 200 million or so.

 

I give him credit for ultimately realizing going with Rex was a disaster and hiring Beane--the rest was on autopilot for Pegula.  The Sabres are what happens when he doesn't luck into a Beane. 

46 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

I hope you aren't holding Stan Kroenke up as an example of what we want in Buffalo.

 

Actually it's easier than ever. 32 teams, half get in. There was once a time when there were 21 teams and 16 got in. 

 

 

my point.

[msw2112]

2 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Here's the rest of the NFL and NHL.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NHL_franchise_owners

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFL_franchise_owners

 

Nearly all are first time owners or they inherited teams from their parents.  "Novices to sports management" is a silly criticism to levy at an owner.  You make it sound like there is a traditional route to owning an NFL or NHL franchise that they skipped along the way.  Meanhwile there are owners who have been in the game for 6 decades who still make "novice" mistakes and meddle in affairs they should stay out of.

 

You are entitled to your opinion, but I think you are reading way too deeply into my comments.  All I said was that the Pegulas lacked pro sports experience when they bought the teams and that's a fact.  I think they have improved with experience, and that's not a fact, but an opinion.  My opinion is based on where the Bills are today versus when the Pegulas bought the team and where the Sabres are today versus when the Pegulas bought that team.  

 

I also believe that in some cases, having experience can be helpful, but I agree with you that it's no guaranteed predictor of success.  Some owners have no experience and win in their first season.  Others own teams for decades and are mired in continual futility.

 

All this said, I enjoy a good debate as much as the next guy, but I do have a full-time job and have to get back to it.  Go Bills, Go Sabres, and F Stan Kronke.

[PromoTheRobot]

56 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

 

It depends on what you mean by "example."  He has won titles in the NFL, NHL, and NBA, so sure, I'd sign up for some of that.  He's had some successful GMs, coaches and players on his rosters.

 

Personally, I think the guy is a scumbag.  He screwed the city of St. Louis to make a buck that he certainly didn't need.  His new stadium in LA was a big factor in luring the Chargers out of San Diego, screwing that fanbase too.

 

I've been on this board long enough that I should know better, but the only point I was trying to make is that the Pegulas were novices in the sports industry when they bought the Buffalo teams and they struggled out of the gate.   After gaining more experience, they have improved the quality of their hires and the quality of their teams.  The Sabres took a lot more trial and error than the Bills and it has been a long and painful ride for Sabres fans, but they seem to have figured it out.

 

I simply cited the example of Kronke as a guy with pro sports experience when he bought some of his teams.  How does that translate to me being a fan of Kronke or wanting someone like him for Buffalo?

 

Listen. 98% of team owners are novices. No one comes in with a degree in owning a sports team. You are imagining a thing that doesn't really exist.  There's also a good deal of luck in winning titles.

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Selling it gets him the entire windfall.  Why keep 25%?  So he can feel the thrill of a  minority owner? I would take the extra 200 million or so.

 

I give him credit for ultimately realizing going with Rex was a disaster and hiring Beane--the rest was on autopilot for Pegula.  The Sabres are what happens when he doesn't luck into a Beane. 

 

 

my point.

 

He'll get a windfall whenever he sells and he'll get to enjoy a winning team, which he's been waiting for for 12 years.

 

He picked the right coach and GM with the Bills.  And with a QB like Josh, he'll be able to get good ones in the future if need be.

[Mr. WEO]

6 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

He'll get a windfall whenever he sells and he'll get to enjoy a winning team, which he's been waiting for for 12 years.

 

He picked the right coach and GM with the Bills.  And with a QB like Josh, he'll be able to get good ones in the future if need be.

 

What does he gain by surrendering  control to retain  25% of the team?  I asked you this above. 

 

Doesn't make a lot of sense.  Cash out and cheer on the team in your suite.  Not be on the hook for fixing up that ratty venue too.  

 

Where's the bump?

[Doc]

10 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

What does he gain by surrendering  control to retain  25% of the team?  I asked you this above. 

 

Doesn't make a lot of sense.  Cash out and cheer on the team in your suite.  Not be on the hook for fixing up that ratty venue too.  

 

Where's the bump?

 

Maybe money to fix up that ratty arena?  I don't know.  Again I said it didn't make sense to sell the team, now that they're starting to get good.  Selling 25% seemed like the most plausible explanation out of the "he did it to sell the team" scenarios.

[msw2112]

19 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Listen. 98% of team owners are novices. No one comes in with a degree in owning a sports team. You are imagining a thing that doesn't really exist.  There's also a good deal of luck in winning titles.

 

I'm listening.  But please, respectfully, don't tell me what I am or am not imagining.  It's condescending and inappropriate.  There is no question that the Pegulas had no experience when they bought the Sabres.  It's my opinion that through trial and error, and sure, some luck, they have learned from their mistakes and have a better idea of what they are looking for in GM and coaching hires.  They appear to now prefer hires who are thoughtful and measured in their approach, who do their homework, have a plan, and stick to it.  Beane, McDermott, Adams and Granato all fit this profile.  It's a major contrast to the likes of Rex Ryan, Russ Brandon, Tim Murray, Ralph Kreuger and others who are more impetuous, marketing-focused, headline-seeking types that they've hired in the past.

 

While there are college degrees in sports management, I would agree with you that most team owners don't have one (although some front office people probably do).  I know someone who has such a degree and he's worked for an NBA franchise and now works for a major college sports program.  He's not going to own a team anytime soon.  But I still think that many people learn from their experience and that some owners who have been in the sports business have a better feel for hiring good people to run their teams due to that experience.  That doesn't mean that there's no luck involved in professional sports success or that every sports team owner with past experience has benefitted from their experience, but to say that it's an imaginary concept is incorrect.

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Maybe money to fix up that ratty arena?  I don't know.  Again I said it didn't make sense to sell the team, now that they're starting to get good.  Selling 25% seemed like the most plausible explanation out of the "he did it to sell the team" scenarios.

makes no business sense. 
 

Why lose money on a refurb when you can cash out now and let the next guy put his money in that pit. 
 

owning an NFL team is the real cache. Adding the NFL is just a revenue drain in this case. 
 

he can still where meat his hat and jersey and stop by the locker room…

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

he can still where meat his hat and jersey and stop by the locker room…

Can you get Uhura to look at the universal translator?  I missed something there

[RiotAct]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

makes no business sense. 
 

Why lose money on a refurb when you can cash out now and let the next guy put his money in that pit. 
 

owning an NFL team is the real cache. Adding the NFL is just a revenue drain in this case. 
 

he can still where meat his hat and jersey and stop by the locker room…

mmmmm, meat.

[Doc]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

makes no business sense. 
 

Why lose money on a refurb when you can cash out now and let the next guy put his money in that pit. 
 

owning an NFL team is the real cache. Adding the NFL is just a revenue drain in this case. 
 

he can still where meat his hat and jersey and stop by the locker room…

 

The time to cut bait was years ago.  He's not keeping the Sabres for business reasons.

[FitzShowUsYourTitz]

On 8/28/2023 at 1:34 PM, Doc said:

I could see him doing that in the past, but the team is on the cusp of the playoffs this year.

 

Edit: Why the laughing emoji, Dillenger4?  Do I smell a wager?

Let’s think like a business person, and not a fan for a second.  Do you think someone would prefer to sell when a team is on the upswing? … sells for more money, etc?

 

Come on now!  
just sayin’

[FitzShowUsYourTitz]

On 8/28/2023 at 2:30 PM, Big Turk said:

 

Highly unlikely a person who has been "shopping" a team would undertake a project the size and scope of which the upgrades to Key Bank Center will likely entail, which are planned to take "years" to complete as much of the work will be done during the offseason, which is about to get a lot shorter starting next year.

 

I'll chalk this up in the bar talk coming from a friend of a friend of a cousin's sister's friend category

Come on man.  Have a lil ounce of business sense.  The answer to your question is yes.  
Lets remove a zero or two here:

Lets say your house is worth $900 million

OK, $900,000.  But it’s literally a worn out piece of *****. (You even have a 26 year old tv hanging in your main room!).

 

It’s time to sell… but you know you want to get the most bang for your buck so you realize if you put say put 10% into fixing up the joint…and prices continue to rise and rise and rise and the team gets good (not even scary good, just playoff good) a couple years from now it could be worth $1.4 million instead on $900k.  
This is what smart business people do.  
Come on now!