PSE has been "Dissolved"

[May Day 10]

My gut says the team is not for sale.  I do believe they *at least, have looked into selling off some of the team to an equity firm kind of deal, but remaining the owner and managing partner.  

All noise from the team, media, etc seems to indicate that Pegula is very happy being the Sabres' owner.  At the NHL draft he was front and center and seemed to be very engaged.  Pegula has taken a ton of lumps in his 12 years of ownership.  They are finally getting a lot of love in the local and national press... they may be finally turning the corner into a good stroke of playoff years.  It would be a tough time to bail, and leave your era/legacy the past 12 years of awfulness.

 

The focus will soon start to shift towards what the Pegulas' kids are going to do.  I expect Matthew and Jessica and her husband at the very least start to assume prominent roles in the next several years.

 

There is a lack of local buyer(s) to really make it work.  I cant see Pegula deliberately selling the team to an outside interest, and without any safeguards of the team staying.  That goes against everything we have witnessed, and his actions to date.  If there was a local guy, say Bob Rich didnt have alligator arms... and he was willing to pay market price for the team, I do think Pegula would consider selling.

[May Day 10]

2 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

Pegula bought the team in February of 2011. Their last playoff appearance was April of 2011. 

Pat Lafontaine was hired November 13, 2013. He quite March 1, 2014. He worked for the Sabres for something like 75 days. 

I want Pegula to keep the team. I want the team to stay. But he has been a really bad owner. Maybe the worst owner the NHL has ever seen. The Sabres current drought is nearly 2x the next longest.  Super nice guy, but the Sabres org has been notoriously toxic/dysfunctional since the day he came in. This in no way, shape, or form has anything to do with the date or the hiring/resignation of Lafontaine. It started before that, and it continues after it. Terry has always been really bad at this. 

 

I am hoping that without Kim as the buffer as President Terry can stay the hell away from what they are building. I am a fan of the current hockey staff and roster.

 

I have heard good information from a few places that friction with Kim was the biggest driving force/factor in LaFontaine's resignation.  Basically he was president, but she would override his decisions over his head.  Lots of little things, but it caused a huge meltdown when there was the Sabres parents' trip.  Miller wanted to bring his wife and Lafontaine said no, it was a parents trip to help team building, and Kim Pegula overruled.

 

Thats a big reason the Pegulas have been so publicly obsessed with communication, collaboration and all that in their hires.  

[Mango]

15 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

 

I have heard good information from a few places that friction with Kim was the biggest driving force/factor in LaFontaine's resignation.  Basically he was president, but she would override his decisions over his head.  Lots of little things, but it caused a huge meltdown when there was the Sabres parents' trip.  Miller wanted to bring his wife and Lafontaine said no, it was a parents trip to help team building, and Kim Pegula overruled.

 

Thats a big reason the Pegulas have been so publicly obsessed with communication, collaboration and all that in their hires.  

 

That information has to be Terry. Kim was not named president of the Sabres until after Russ Brandon left in 2018.

It has been reported that Terry was going around the president to scheme ideas. It was reported that Terry was regularly meeting with Regier and going around Ted Black. He was asked about it and was quoted as something along the lines of "Ted Black does not have a monopoly on hockey IQ". One would think that if it happened again in the next regime (it did), that it was the same guy doing the same thing, that he all but admitted to just a few months prior. 

Kim had/has her own issues, but by and large from 2018 on the organization found some more stability. Kruger and Co. were a terrible mistake, but we course corrected fairly quickly and also pulled the rip chord on Eichel. I was highly critical of all things Adams, but right now the team is in a good spot. I credit KP with a lot of that stability. 

[Mr. WEO]

45 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Hockey is Terry's first love.  Why would he sell now that the team is setup for long-term success?  It doesn't make any sense.

 

How do you know this?

 

Anyway, fracking was his first love----and he sold that business right when it's value peaked (and has since tanked).

 

Then he bought a team that had known playoff success and turned it into one of regular season futility.  I guess he can do what he wants.  Be President of the Bills and the Sabres....

 

 

[May Day 10]

2 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

That information has to be Terry. Kim was not named president of the Sabres until after Russ Brandon left in 2018.

It has been reported that Terry was going around the president to scheme ideas. It was reported that Terry was regularly meeting with Regier and going around Ted Black. He was asked about it and was quoted as something along the lines of "Ted Black does not have a monopoly on hockey IQ". One would think that if it happened again in the next regime (it did), that it was the same guy doing the same thing, that he all but admitted to just a few months prior. 

Kim had/has her own issues, but by and large from 2018 on the organization found some more stability. Kruger and Co. were a terrible mistake, but we course corrected fairly quickly and also pulled the rip chord on Eichel. I was highly critical of all things Adams, but right now the team is in a good spot. I credit KP with a lot of that stability. 

 

I think she was probably still going around the building and making decisions prior to her presidency as well.  

 

Im not a Kim Pegula (or Terry) hater or anything.  I just think that in a lot of ways, this organization was undermined by their desire to be involved, as well as failure in defining roles.  It was all very dysfunctional.  They hired Adams, who seems to open to including the Pegulas (and probably others) in roundtable-style decisions... and I think Krueger was as well, and to some extent, Botterill... but those guys were just awful at their jobs.  

[Mango]

3 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

 

I think she was probably still going around the building and making decisions prior to her presidency as well.  

 

Im not a Kim Pegula (or Terry) hater or anything.  I just think that in a lot of ways, this organization was undermined by their desire to be involved, as well as failure in defining roles.  It was all very dysfunctional.  They hired Adams, who seems to open to including the Pegulas (and probably others) in roundtable-style decisions... and I think Krueger was as well, and to some extent, Botterill... but those guys were just awful at their jobs.  

 

I don't think we are saying anything terribly different here. 

I agree. I don't hate any of them. They have certainly invested a lot. But they have been really bad owners in the NHL. I find myself constantly frustrated by it the longer it drags on. I don't want them gone. I want them to stay but to also to stop sucking. 

[EasternOHBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

 

Pegula bought the team in February of 2011. Their last playoff appearance was April of 2011. 

Pat Lafontaine was hired November 13, 2013. He quite March 1, 2014. He worked for the Sabres for something like 75 days. 

I want Pegula to keep the team. I want the team to stay. But he has been a really bad owner. Maybe the worst owner the NHL has ever seen. The Sabres current drought is nearly 2x the next longest.  Super nice guy, but the Sabres org has been notoriously toxic/dysfunctional since the day he came in. This in no way, shape, or form has anything to do with the date or the hiring/resignation of Lafontaine. It started before that, and it continues after it. Terry has always been really bad at this. 

 

I am hoping that without Kim as the buffer as President Terry can stay the hell away from what they are building. I am a fan of the current hockey staff and roster.

 

THANK YOU for at least acknowledging that we have major issues and being "the best hockey market in the country" isn't cutting it right now.

 

The row with Pat is what I think essentially took our franchise and royally screwed up the organization is what I was getting at. It took what could have been just a small playoff drought and made it into an extremely long one. The damage that was done that day is still not acknowledged enough and it shows how badly Pegula has botched things with the Sabres. Had he chosen to back Pat we would have probably been in a much stronger position to rebuild properly. Pegula still has not healed that rift and that REALLY bothers me... I am hoping he does sell the team and the Sabres stay and win the Cup or show they can return to the playoffs regularly.

Edited August 29, 2023 by EasternOHBillsFan

[Mango]

17 minutes ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

THANK YOU for at least acknowledging that we have major issues and being "the best hockey market in the country" isn't cutting it right now.

 

The row with Pat is what I think essentially took our franchise and royally screwed up the organization is what I was getting at. It took what could have been just a small playoff drought and made it into an extremely long one. The damage that was done that day is still not acknowledged enough and it shows how badly Pegula has botched things with the Sabres. Had he chosen to back Pat we would have probably been in a much stronger position to rebuild properly. Pegula still has not healed that rift and that REALLY bothers me... I am hoping he does sell the team and the Sabres stay and win the Cup or show they can return to the playoffs regularly.

 

I don't know how the Sabres could possibly be reeling from a guy who worked for them for 90 days 10 years ago. 

The Sabres have been struggling due to bad ownership pre and post LaFontaine. Terry treated Pat the same way he treated Ted Black/Regier. 

[EasternOHBillsFan]

1 minute ago, Mango said:

 

I don't know how the Sabres could possibly be reeling from a guy who worked for them for 90 days 10 years ago. 

The Sabres have been struggling due to bad ownership pre and post LaFontaine. Terry treated Pat the same way he treated Ted Black/Regier. 

 

It established a pattern of mismanagement that alienated one of the biggest stars we've ever had as a franchise. How is that not extremely important?

[May Day 10]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

 

I don't think we are saying anything terribly different here. 

I agree. I don't hate any of them. They have certainly invested a lot. But they have been really bad owners in the NHL. I find myself constantly frustrated by it the longer it drags on. I don't want them gone. I want them to stay but to also to stop sucking. 

 

Yeah.  I love the stability.  I think they are fairly genuine people for billionaires.  I believe their desire is to win.  I love their resources.... but yeah.  

 

From day 1, they needed (for each franchise), a vetted and experienced team president to work alongside them who builds the team from the top down.  Ease them into managing and being involved.  I had thought they learned with the Sabres and was shocked to see them buy the Bills and not have that person in place (and continue to grope around with that buffoon Russ Brandon a few more years).

 

 

25 minutes ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

THANK YOU for at least acknowledging that we have major issues and being "the best hockey market in the country" isn't cutting it right now.

 

The row with Pat is what I think essentially took our franchise and royally screwed up the organization is what I was getting at. It took what could have been just a small playoff drought and made it into an extremely long one. The damage that was done that day is still not acknowledged enough and it shows how badly Pegula has botched things with the Sabres. Had he chosen to back Pat we would have probably been in a much stronger position to rebuild properly. Pegula still has not healed that rift and that REALLY bothers me... I am hoping he does sell the team and the Sabres stay and win the Cup or show they can return to the playoffs regularly.

 

That was a tough day, but it was just a symptom of the systemic failing of their structure and lack thereof.  

 

It was screwed up from day 1.  They decided to hang onto Regier and Ruff, who clearly ran their course here.  We had a decent nucleus that was stagnating, and with different leadership they may have been able to succeed.  That mini-run in the spring to grab a playoff spot was probably a bad thing.

 

There was a lockout shortened season that started in January, extra long offseason.  They waited that long and decided to fire Ruff early in that season, after all that time off, mainly because the home crowds were turning ugly and it was getting national/canadian media attention.  Half-measure.  They hired Ron Rolston who was unqualified/unfit.  

Then they hung onto Regier longer, allowed him to start a rebuild... but then decided to fire him, again early, the next season to hire LaFontaine (without a GM in place).  This was apparently due to a chance meeting at a Concussion seminar and an impulse.  I thought it was great as he had Craig Patrick as a mentor and I was all in on Lafontaine's stated philosophies and goals.  

Then LaFontaine left amid drama, leaving Murray as the GM and defacto president.  I honestly believe that Murray was going to serve as kind of more of a head scout/talent evaluation role, while LaFontaine would take care a lot of the interpersonal stuff and sign off on everything.  It could have worked.  LaFontaine is my favorite player all-time and its gutting that he is on the outs with ownership and the organization.

 

Murray was a disaster running the show.  They screwed Nolan over again which was bad mojo.  Bylsma was horrible, Housley was worse.  Botterill was a decent hire based on his resume, but he was a disaster as a general manager.  Kruger, woof.  They made bad hires, strange flat management structure, and waited too long to make moves, hanging onto bad for too long at times.

Edited August 29, 2023 by May Day 10

[EasternOHBillsFan]

Just now, May Day 10 said:

Then they hung onto Regier longer, allowed him to start a rebuild... but then decided to fire him, again early, the next season to hire LaFontaine (without a GM in place).  This was apparently due to a chance meeting at a Concussion seminar and a impulse.  I thought it was great as he had Craig Patrick as a mentor and I was all in on Lafontaine's stated philosophies and goals.  

 

Then LaFontaine left amid drama, leaving Murray as the GM and defacto president.  I honestly believe that Murray was going to serve as kind of more of a head scout/talent evaluation role, while LaFontaine would take care a lot of the interpersonal stuff and sign off on everything.  It could have worked.

 

Murray was a disaster running the show.  They screwed Nolan over again which was bad mojo.  Bylsma was horrible, Housley was worse.  Botterill was a decent hire based on his resume, but he was a disaster as a general manager.

 

Once again, a pivotal moment in this history of the franchise... what could have been, much like Bill Polian. That's why I talked about it and how devastating the Murray era was... Pegula was supposed to be a hockey guy #1 and look at what happened. 

 

[Mango]

8 minutes ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

Once again, a pivotal moment in this history of the franchise... what could have been, much like Bill Polian. That's why I talked about it and how devastating the Murray era was... Pegula was supposed to be a hockey guy #1 and look at what happened. 

 

 

I will likely bow out over this because it feels like we are spinning in circles. I don't think the Sabres are suffering from Lafontaine's resignation. I think that is a minor blip in a string of blips, one right after another. PL is no more significant than any other. They have suffered for 12 years because their ownership sucks. The owners sucked before Patty. And they sucked after. I agree there is a pattern. It started before Patty and kept going after.

 

Lafontaine feels significant to the community, I get it. But he hasn't done much of anything since. Not defending Pegula here, but Lafontaine has yet to prove any stickiness with any NHL franchise. He worked for the Islanders for less time than he worked in Buffalo before also leaving in a huff. I would be very quick to point the finger at Pat here had the Sabres done anything over the following decade. But I still think he likely deserves some blame. Comparing a guy who has never managed a professional sports roster for any significant amount of time to Bill Polian is so far out there. 

[Shemp]

One of the very first acts of Pegulas was to invest $10 million into the lockerroom. I didn't think that was a good idea and it was a bad priority. The whole episode of Terry coming crying to Lafontaine to take charge really stuck in my craw. Then the way Lafontaine was fired seemed so secretive and arbitrary...and the rumors that his concussions had something to do with his competency...all rubbed me the wrong way.  It all seemed like chaos.  If I recall, a lot of the conflict between Lafontaine and Murray/Pegula was the decision to trade Miller. And as it turned out, Buffalo didn't have good goaltending or a good team for the better part of a decade afterwards.

 

 

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

How do you know this?

 

Anyway, fracking was his first love----and he sold that business right when it's value peaked (and has since tanked).

 

Then he bought a team that had known playoff success and turned it into one of regular season futility.  I guess he can do what he wants.  Be President of the Bills and the Sabres....

 

Because they have a good, young nucleus and were 1 point away from making the playoffs last year.

 

He also bought a team that had missed the playoffs for 14 straight years and within his 3rd full year of ownership they went back to the playoffs and keep going back.  And that team is far more important of the two.  So yeah, he can do what he wants.

[msw2112]

The Pegulas had no background in sports management and it showed in their early years with both teams.  The Rex Ryan hire and reliance on Russ Brandon with the Bills were terrible moves.  Fortunately, they learned their lesson fairly quickly and now have good people in place with Beane and McDermott.  Sure, we can get into 13 seconds and other coaching decisions on the field, but for the most part, the Bills management team is competent, smart, and stable.

 

With the Sabres, it took MUCH longer and several rounds of front office and coaching hires to achieve the necessary stability.  With Kevin Adams in place, it appears that they have finally gotten there with the Sabres too.  Again, we could quibble about Adams not doing enough about the goaltending situation, or the team needing a new assistant coach for the penalty kill, but overall, the franchise appears to be stable on and off the ice, with an upward trajectory.

 

I personally would like to see the Pegula family retain ownership of both teams.  They've had more than their share of growing pains and taken their lumps, but now that they've gotten over the hump and have stable management in place and quality teams on the field/ice, I think they will be excellent owners.  Despite their mis-steps, they have always been committed to the Buffalo region and they have always been willing to spend whatever it takes to be successful.  While it's true that they tightened their belts with the Sabres a couple of years ago, that was the house cleaning that was needed to allow the Adams administration to come in, restructure, and get back on track.  They have since added quality talent to the front office (such as Karamanos) and are paying players that deserve it (Thompson, Cozens, Samuelsson, etc.)  Thus, I hope the rumors of the Sabres prepping for sale are untrue.

[Mr. WEO]

54 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Because they have a good, young nucleus and were 1 point away from making the playoffs last year.

 

He also bought a team that had missed the playoffs for 14 straight years and within his 3rd full year of ownership they went back to the playoffs and keep going back.  And that team is far more important of the two.  So yeah, he can do what he wants.

 

It's hard to miss the NHL playoffs for 12 years.  The nucleus has been discussed for years...

 

He can still hang out with the team, etc.  He should let someone else own/run/be President is all.  Might be better for fans as well as the team.  "Almost making the playoffs in year 12" isn't a great entry for a team President/Owner's resume for sports management.

 

And yeah, he hired Beane who drafted Allen and the rest followed.  Before that he Whaley'd and Rex'd...etc. 

[PromoTheRobot]

5 hours ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

Did they make the playoffs in the last two years? 

 

The Buffalo Sabres last made the playoffs in 2011!!!!!! In 2014 after Tim Murray came in and began wrecking the franchise,  LaFontaine left the Sabres. How is that so difficult to understand????

 

https://www.buffalohockeybeat.com/stunner-pat-lafontaine-resigns-from-sabres/

 

I can tell you didn't fully read my post.

 

The Buffalo Sabres last made the playoffs in 2011!!!!!! In 2014 after Tim Murray came in and began wrecking the franchise,  LaFontaine left the Sabres. How is that so difficult to understand????

 

https://www.buffalohockeybeat.com/stunner-pat-lafontaine-resigns-from-sabres/

 

Oooh, you got me. Can't argue with that point.😂 Nothing ever changes, right? Once you suck, you suck. 

 

That was 9 years ago. Let me catch you up.

 

The Sabres have put together one of the best young rosters in the NHL. Hockey isn't like football. It takes a few years to build a team, especially though the draft. But take a minute and Google top NHL prospects and see how many Sabres show up on that list. These Sabres are akin to the 2019 Bills.

1 hour ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

It established a pattern of mismanagement that alienated one of the biggest stars we've ever had as a franchise. How is that not extremely important?

 

Then how do you explain how good they are now?

Edited August 29, 2023 by PromoTheRobot

[Doc]

41 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

It's hard to miss the NHL playoffs for 12 years.  The nucleus has been discussed for years...

 

He can still hang out with the team, etc.  He should let someone else own/run/be President is all.  Might be better for fans as well as the team.  "Almost making the playoffs in year 12" isn't a great entry for a team President/Owner's resume for sports management.

 

And yeah, he hired Beane who drafted Allen and the rest followed.  Before that he Whaley'd and Rex'd...etc. 

 

The success with the Bills, despite the early hiccups, is the greatest entry he could have.  The NFL is the premier sports league in the world.

 

But yes, I brought up selling 25% and having the minority owner run the day-to-day stuff.  Again no reason to completely sell the team now that they're finally good again.

[Jauronimo]

2 hours ago, msw2112 said:

The Pegulas had no background in sports management and it showed in their early years with both teams.  The Rex Ryan hire and reliance on Russ Brandon with the Bills were terrible moves.  Fortunately, they learned their lesson fairly quickly and now have good people in place with Beane and McDermott.  Sure, we can get into 13 seconds and other coaching decisions on the field, but for the most part, the Bills management team is competent, smart, and stable.

 

With the Sabres, it took MUCH longer and several rounds of front office and coaching hires to achieve the necessary stability.  With Kevin Adams in place, it appears that they have finally gotten there with the Sabres too.  Again, we could quibble about Adams not doing enough about the goaltending situation, or the team needing a new assistant coach for the penalty kill, but overall, the franchise appears to be stable on and off the ice, with an upward trajectory.

 

I personally would like to see the Pegula family retain ownership of both teams.  They've had more than their share of growing pains and taken their lumps, but now that they've gotten over the hump and have stable management in place and quality teams on the field/ice, I think they will be excellent owners.  Despite their mis-steps, they have always been committed to the Buffalo region and they have always been willing to spend whatever it takes to be successful.  While it's true that they tightened their belts with the Sabres a couple of years ago, that was the house cleaning that was needed to allow the Adams administration to come in, restructure, and get back on track.  They have since added quality talent to the front office (such as Karamanos) and are paying players that deserve it (Thompson, Cozens, Samuelsson, etc.)  Thus, I hope the rumors of the Sabres prepping for sale are untrue.

No new owner comes in with a background in sports management.  You don't make your billions in sports management.  

[msw2112]

2 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

No new owner comes in with a background in sports management.  You don't make your billions in sports management.  

 

That's not true.  For example, Rams owner Stan Kroenke owns the Denver Nuggets, LA Rams, and Colorado Avalanche, the MLS Colorado Rapids and some Euro soccer teams.  He did not acquire all of these teams at the same time.  He's won championships with the Rams, Nuggets, and Avalanche, so I suspect that he has a good feel for putting good people in place when running a professional sports franchise.  Many other professional sports owners either own multiple teams, like Kroenke, or often sell one team (or their interest in it) and buy into others.  Sometimes it's majority owners and sometimes minority owners like Magic Johnson, who owned a small piece of the LA Lakers and later bought a minority share of the LA Dodgers.

 

I agree that most pro sports owners don't make their initial fortune in sports (it's usually real estate, oil, capital management, etc.), but some owners have experience in professional sports when they buy a team.  The Pegulas did not have any such experience.