Starting CB2...

[WhoTom]

7 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

Jackson is a minor upgrade from Levi Wallace, and Wallace was mediocre at best, our “contain/shell” style defense is what needs adjustment, not tossed out per say,  but adjusted to take better advantage of player skills, why they picked an aggressive man coverage CB for a soft zone defense, and then not use him to his skill set is kinda Billsy, we shall see how this plays out won’t we…, 

 

It was Billsy under previous regimes, but that's not the current M.O. Look at the way they designed an offense to maximize Josh's strengths and hide his weaknesses, and then they worked with him to fix the weaknesses. And they designed a defense to maximize the skillsets of the players.

 

I think this is more likely the case with Elam:

 

5 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Personally, I think CB2 is going to be less about who starts and more about defensive calls and matchups.  I can see for example Elam out there more on press/man coverage and Dane or Benford more zone for example.  So I am not convinced that whoever wins CB2 is going to dominate the snaps like Tre does in regard to "starting".

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by WhoTom

[Don Otreply]

3 minutes ago, WhoTom said:

 

It was Billsy under previous regimes, but that's not the current M.O. Look at the way they designed an offense to maximize Josh's strengths and hide his weaknesses, and then they worked with him to fix the weaknesses. And they designed a defense to maximize the skillsets of the players.

 

I think this is more likely the case with Elam:

 

 

I can see your point, but it takes a season or two, (sometimes more) for that concept to come to fruition, instead of drafting / free agency someone that already is talented at what is needed, its in a sense taking the long way around the barn, as the saying goes…,  

[TheyCallMeAndy]

17 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

And that’s the rub. The Bills have tried to improve on Jackson, but it hasn’t worked out yet. 

Because of his positive play, not his competition’s negative play. 

[BananaB]

7 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

Jackson is a minor upgrade from Levi Wallace, and Wallace was mediocre at best, our “contain/shell” style defense is what needs adjustment, not tossed out per say,  but adjusted to take better advantage of player skills, why they picked an aggressive man coverage CB for a soft zone defense, and then not use him to his skill set is kinda Billsy, we shall see how this plays out won’t we…, 

Jackson is not an upgrade over Wallace

[Dopey]

23 hours ago, Warcodered said:

Except isn't it Dane whose in the lead again somehow?

The op did ask IF Benford wins it. 

[Dopey]

20 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

It may have been bound to happen but the timing of a completely crap draft couldn’t have been worse - the entire 2022 draft is looking like a throwaway.  Benford and maybe Cook can partially salvage it, but considering what the Chiefs pulled from that draft class (and the Jets who took 2 likely All Pros in Round 1 alone), the Bills lost a major opportunity to capitalize on the end of Allen’s cheap window.

Calling a draft complete crap after one season is complete crap. 

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

10 hours ago, eball said:

The premise of this thread isn’t to give Beane a “break” for missing on Elam (if that is the case), but to ask a question about whether the team is in bad shape with three competent CB2 options.

 

 

That's a stupid premise.

 

The Bills will always be fine at cornerback as long as Sean McDermott is the Head Coach.

 

They can sign a guy off the street at any time and in a matter of weeks have him functioning well enough in their zone defense to be getting on with-- early on they did it with a forgotten never-was named Ryan Lewis who now plays in the XFL. The defense played at a high level with this crappy nobody starting at CB2.

 

They've excelled with end-of-the-draft nobodies and UDFAs over and over. Levi, Dane, Benford. 

 

Kaiir Elam was a pointless ######ed ass draft pick to begin with.

 

The talent level at WR is about 5X more important for this team than at CB.

 

There's probably hyperbole in this rant but no doubt about it there's a gem of a point in there somewhere too.

[FireChans]

6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I think this is what people miss on this topic.  They look at it that if Elam doesn't win it then it means Elam was not good, which isn't the case, he has had a good camp.  Its just that we have 3 guys all having good camps at the same position.  Which to me is a good thing.

 

Personally, I think CB2 is going to be less about who starts and more about defensive calls and matchups.  I can see for example Elam out there more on press/man coverage and Dane or Benford more zone for example.  So I am not convinced that whoever wins CB2 is going to dominate the snaps like Tre does in regard to "starting".

We didn’t draft Elam to be just as good as Levi Wallace.

[OldTimer1960]

18 hours ago, BigAl2526 said:

If Benford is as good as he seems to be, I think the Bills are fine at CB.  IIn theory, you want a first round draft pick to be on the field, but in the grand scheme of things, this is a tiny problem for the Bills compared with a couple other issues the Bills are dealing with.

I think this might be overestimating Benford.  He hasn’t beaten out Jackson who is OK, but they did want to replace him.

[Simon]

38 minutes ago, BananaB said:

Jackson is not an upgrade over Wallace

 

Levi Wallace was the worst pigeon the Bills have had on defense in 5-10 years.

Dane Jackson may not be all that and a bag of chips but he is a massive upgrade over the guy that every opposing co-ordinator went after the second the Bills stopped compromising their defense to try and protect him.

[GoBills808]

Just now, OldTimer1960 said:

I think this might be overestimating Benford.  He hasn’t beaten out Jackson who is OK, but they did want to replace him.

Yeah, maybe I'm misremembering but I don't recall a time when I thought hey Benford looked good

[FireChans]

8 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

Levi Wallace was the worst pigeon the Bills have had on defense in 5-10 years.

Dane Jackson may not be all that and a bag of chips but he is a massive upgrade over the guy that every opposing co-ordinator went after the second the Bills stopped compromising their defense to protect him.

A legitimate bad take.

 

Not only does this ignore that for the majority of Levi's career, he had borderline All-Pro Tre White across the field, along with Poyer and Hyde (gee, if I was an offensive coordinator, I wonder who I would throw at), but it's also completely not supported by the numbers.

 

Levi Wallace his last season in Buffalo, aka sans Tre White for a large part of the year, allowed a passer rating of 72.6 when targeted.

 

Dane last year allowed 82.1.

 

Elam allowed a tremendously bad 96.3.

 

Benford allowed 84.1.

 

Levi Wallace was the victim of being a solid player surrounding by stars, and the weakest player in the secondary by default.  And this caused him to get vilified by the people who don't know what they are talking about. He's a better player the the three "solid depth" amigos who can't seem to break out of the mediocre paper bag they are stuck in.

Edited August 25, 2023 by FireChans

[Airseven]

28 minutes ago, Dopey said:

The op did ask IF Benford wins it. 

 

Fair.

 

It's still a problem if a GM trades up for a player in round 1 who can barely get on the field. Benford is getting reps, in part, because of the Elam problem.

 

GMs need to hit on early picks. Bills may be plateauing because guys like Ford, Epenesa, Basham, and Elam didn't develop. Even Oliver and Edmunds have been above average players but not what the team expected them to become. We'll see about Rousseau. Still hope.

[Simon]

15 minutes ago, FireChans said:

And this caused him to get vilified by the people who don't know what they are talking about.

 

The irony of this insult coming from somebody who uses "passer ratings" to judge a player's technique, ability, awareness and reliability is through the roof.

[FireChans]

8 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

The irony of this insult coming from somebody who uses "passer ratings" to judge a player's technique, ability, awareness and reliability is through the roof.

Sorry, I wasn't referring to you in particular, just that I think he was a little bit of a trendy kicked dog on this board, particularly because his personal competition in the secondary.

 

FWIW, Levi also crushed the other dudes in pretty much other metric. Not saying much based on their level of play.

 

I guess if the eye-test says that Elam has much better technique, ability, awareness and reliability, but allowed a 70% completion rate and a 96.3 passer rating when the ball was thrown his way, I would ask, of what use is the eye test?

Edited August 25, 2023 by FireChans

[Simon]

Just now, FireChans said:

Sorry, I wasn't referring to you in particular, just that I think he was a little bit of a trendy kicked dog on this board, particularly because his personal competition in the secondary.

 

FWIW, Levi also crushed the other dudes in pretty much other metric. Not saying much based on their level of play.

 

I guess if the eye-test says that Elam has much better technique, ability, awareness and reliability, but allowed a 70% completion rate and a 96.3 passer rating when the ball was thrown his way, I would ask, of what use is the eye test?

 

I think Elam has mostly looked like hell also; clearly uncomfortable, doing too much guessing, getting wrong-footed regularly, etc.

Dane Jackson isn't the best athlete on the field but he knows where he's supposed to be, is not hesitant to get there and is willing to attack both opponents and the ball. If he had better feet, he'd possibly be a legitimate long term option as a starter.

Wallace was just a train wreck. I respect him for working his ass off to maximize what he had and somehow carve out a career for himself, but when you combine that limited athleticism with poor field awareness, absolutely gawdawful technique and the kind of fear that prevented him from attacking his assignments, I think the Bills felt they had to compromise their entire defense to protect him and it legitimately degraded the unit as a whole.

 

 

[BananaB]

43 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

Levi Wallace was the worst pigeon the Bills have had on defense in 5-10 years.

Dane Jackson may not be all that and a bag of chips but he is a massive upgrade over the guy that every opposing co-ordinator went after the second the Bills stopped compromising their defense to try and protect him.

Did you not watch Dane get picked on on 3rd and long last year? It was ***** brutal

Edited August 25, 2023 by BananaB

[Simon]

9 minutes ago, BananaB said:

Did you not watch Dane get picked on on 3rd and long last year? It was ***** brutal

 

Yeah, he's not a good enough athlete to hold up consistently without help and gets exposed for it on occasion.

Yet he's still a better option than Wallace, who could regularly be seen spinning in circles at any down/distance whether the ball was near him or not. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

Yeah, maybe I'm misremembering but I don't recall a time when I thought hey Benford looked good

 

Week 1 at the Rams. Was kinda lots of meh after that and whilst he did have injuries by the end of last year Elam had beaten Benford out. The fact that they appear to be back the other way around coming out of camp is legitimately concerning for their 1st rounder.

[GETTOTHE50]

was Elam really that bad last year? I honestly dont remember cursing at him during the games.

 

like idt he missed tackles or whiffed on assignments.