Josh Allen is the best weapon in the NFL and he’s not protected.

[HOUSE]

He will be protected, the Steelers bltzed almost every play. In a real game Josh would have made them pay for that. This is why Buffalo drafted Kincaid. 

We could use a better RT,that's about it.

Edited August 22, 2023 by HOUSE

[Heavy Kevi]

18 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I'll say what I've said before, and get flamed for it.  

 

I think Allen is the problem. 

 

Yes, Allen may be the best weapon in the NFL, but if he is, it's because he runs around back there and sometimes takes off for big gains.  

 

Allen is not the best quarterback in the NFL. 

 

If he were the best quarterback in the NFL, I'd agree, he needs great protection.   But if the Bills want to take advantage of his running, they need lineman who can block downfield, and that's what they have.  

 

The problem with the Bills is not that they can't protect Allen.  The problem is that Allen doesn't do what great quarterbacks do, which is to release the ball quickly and accurately to the receiver who is open.   That's what good QBs do.  They have high completion percentages because they take and make the easy throws. 

 

Allen is not patient.   He isn't willing to give up on a play and take the easy throw.  He wants the chunk play every play.   Good quarterbacks take the chunk play when it's there and take the easy throw when it isn't.  

 

Either his coaches are failing him, or he's failing himself.   His future, if it's bright, is as a pocket passer, and he's wasting his precious time on the field by trying to hit home runs every play.  The best quarterbacks take what's easy.  

 

18 hours ago, Cash said:

 

Agreed.  (With the obvious caveat that better O-line play will help any QB, pretty much across the board.)  In Allen's breakout year, he set his career high for completion % with 69.2%, then dropped down to a still-respectable 63.3% each of the last 2 years.  IMO one of the differences is that "Breaking Out Josh" was more willing to take the easy throws and checkdowns if his first read wasn't there.  Once he became established as "Franchise QB Josh", he had the caché to follow his natural instincts more:  Namely, extend plays and keep looking for the home run no matter what.  I don't mind that he has that mindset, I just think he needs to mature a bit and take the easy stuff when it's there.  And save the hero ball for key moments rather than being the default mode of play.  There's nothing wrong with throwing the ball away on 1st or 2nd and 10 or less if it'll avoid a sack or QB hit.

 

 

Both points are valid... Especially about Josh's breakout '20 vs '21 and '22.

 

But I keep thinking about 2 things when it comes to this:

 

1. There was much talk about last year that the deep throws were easier on Josh's elbow, and that's why they went deep so much and became one dimensional down the stretch. Add in the Kincaid pick and what should be a significant amount of 12 formation, and it seems to me the coaches know this and are trying to adjust.

 

2. Josh has acknowledged that and said this year he wants to take more of what the defense gives him, and do more things that traditional pocket passers do.

 

Josh's inclination is 6 on every play. That is pretty hard to deny, but I think he wants it bad enough to adjust. I certainly dont know, but if I had to guess, Allen's air yards per play are going to decline significantly, and his comp % will rise by at least a few percentage points this year.

 

I will disagree with the blanket "Josh is the problem". I think of course he needs to get better, and I don't know that he's "the best weapon", but he's certainly one of them and he needs to find his identity beyond "huge arm, jumps over guys".

[oldmanfan]

28 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Yup, this is correct. 

 

We have a franchise QB for the first time since Kelly, and the Bills plan has consistently been to go cheap on the line: mid-round OL, low-end free agents, a lot of developmental projects. 

 

LG has been a rotation of past their prime veterans: Vlad Ducasse, Quinton Spain, Ike Boettger, Rodger Saffold. 

 

RT has been approached the same way by this regime: Jordan Mills, Connor McDermott, Cody Ford (briefly), Daryl Williams, Spencer Brown, David Quesenberry, Bobby Hart. 

 

I'm listening to WGR from yesterday, and it's just shocking to me that they are puzzled after Saturday that RT is still a problem. Say it out loud, this team banked on a 3rd Rounder from Northern Iowa taking a big step, despite being a below average starter with a back injury on his resume now. 

 

Fans were pointing out after the 2nd Training Camp practice that Brown couldn't even bend down to pick up his helmet. 

 

So more of the same on the line: David Edwards, Van Demark, Connor McGovern, etc. It's cheap, low-end players. 

 

 

 

 

Nice of you to omit the fact that Brown was practicing fully the next day though.

[pocoboy]

20 hours ago, Tipster19 said:

Think about that. In its simplicity why is that? This has to be Beane’s biggest error/flaw and may just cost him his job. It’s very frustrating to just watch this underperforming OL and realize the results it’s going to bring. 

 

The **** flows downhill. We'll see at the end of this season how that Year 2 thing goes.

[Shaw66]

5 minutes ago, Heavy Kevi said:

 

 

 

Both points are valid... Especially about Josh's breakout '20 vs '21 and '22.

 

But I keep thinking about 2 things when it comes to this:

 

1. There was much talk about last year that the deep throws were easier on Josh's elbow, and that's why they went deep so much and became one dimensional down the stretch. Add in the Kincaid pick and what should be a significant amount of 12 formation, and it seems to me the coaches know this and are trying to adjust.

 

2. Josh has acknowledged that and said this year he wants to take more of what the defense gives him, and do more things that traditional pocket passers do.

 

Josh's inclination is 6 on every play. That is pretty hard to deny, but I think he wants it bad enough to adjust. I certainly dont know, but if I had to guess, Allen's air yards per play are going to decline significantly, and his comp % will rise by at least a few percentage points this year.

 

I will disagree with the blanket "Josh is the problem". I think of course he needs to get better, and I don't know that he's "the best weapon", but he's certainly one of them and he needs to find his identity beyond "huge arm, jumps over guys".

I agree with all of this.  The point is that there are things that Josh should be doing that he didn't do for the past couple of years.  There are a variety of reasons why, I'm sure, but I'm not worried about the past.   It's up to Dorsey to get Josh's game under control, to give him the plays he can succeed with, and to get Josh to adjust his attitude to stay in the pocket and take the easy passes.  

[Straight Hucklebuck]

13 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Nice of you to omit the fact that Brown was practicing fully the next day though.

If you want to bank on him surviving all season then go for it. 

 

David Quesenberry is your backup. 

 

Allen is going to have to move off his spot all season. 

 

Sorry, he didn't get better like the Bills brass thought he was going to. 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

'Josh Allen is the best weapon in the NFL and he’s not protected.'

*
🤔

I would have thought the 'Bartender Incident / Rumour' would have been impetus enough.

[oldmanfan]

8 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

If you want to bank on him surviving all season then go for it. 

 

David Quesenberry is your backup. 

 

Allen is going to have to move off his spot all season. 

 

Sorry, he didn't get better like the Bills brass thought he was going to. 

The Dutch kid is your backup.  And if you actually watch the game and what Brown did he handled Watt pretty well.  But God  forbid anything that works against your biases.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

The Dutch kid is your backup.  And if you actually watch the game and what Brown did he handled Watt pretty well.  But God  forbid anything that works against your biases.

Okay, guess we’ll find out. 

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Okay, guess we’ll find out. 

Yes we will.  That’s why they play the games.

[The Jokeman]

20 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

It will be a true houdini act for JA17 to stay healthy all season if this offensive line is as bad they looked against the Steelers or even resemble something remotely close to it.

 

Just amazes me that Beane wouldn't see what the best GM in the business has done in KC and try and copy that in terms of completely overhauling your offensive line. Mind you the Chiefs opted for this approach despite getting to a SB in 2020 and understood they weren't nearly as good as they needed and wanted to protect their franchise QB for the long haul.

Beane added 3 starting caliber OGs in this offseason in McGovern, Edwards and Torrence. He also added a guy like Shell in who's started a few years. What else do you want him to do?

Edited August 22, 2023 by The Jokeman

[theRalph]

Watch some freaking film before you crush the O-Line. Allen had 12 dropbacks vs. Steelers. 6 were clean pockets. 3 pressures were on the OL (Dion, Cybo, and Spencer) and 3 were on Allen himself when he unnecessarily escaped the pocket.

[oldmanfan]

Just now, The Jokeman said:

Beane added 3 starting caliber OGs in this offseason in McGovern, Andrews and Torrance. He also added a guy like Shell in who's started a few years. What else do you want him to do?

We are supposed to have All Pros at every position, and Pro Bowl guys as backups at every position

Just now, theRalph said:

Watch some freaking film before you crush the O-Line. Allen had 12 dropbacks vs. Steelers. 6 were clean pockets. 3 pressures were on the OL (Dion, Cybo, and Spencer) and 3 were on Allen himself when he unnecessarily escaped the pocket.

That would force people to overcome their biases.  We can't have that.

[PatsFanNH]

15 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I think it's hard to rationalize preseason performances meaning nothing and the assertion that this line up is pretty competent myself

 

 

two guesses who has the most TDs in the league over the last 3years

 

 

Lol I am guessing Allen, but who has more SB Trophy’s and MVP Trophies?  Who has completed more insane passes like not looking side arm etc…  I am not knocking Allen just saying it should just say he is ONE OF the top talents in the NFL which he is… 

[Mr. WEO]

21 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Why couldnt this have fit into any of the other threads discussing the pre-season game or the offensive line?

 

check the byline...

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

I think some of the debacle vs the Steelers is just not giving the Steelers their due…that is a scary front 7 with tj watt in the lineup and their 1st string offense had already seen some action in the preseason the week prior. 
 

I can’t think of too many teams I’d want to see less than the Steelers for offensive linemen still getting used to playing with their teammates in their first preseason action.  There’s a few new pieces that are getting their feet wet.  

10 minutes ago, PatsFanNH said:

Lol I am guessing Allen, but who has more SB Trophy’s and MVP Trophies?  Who has completed more insane passes like not looking side arm etc…  I am not knocking Allen just saying it should just say he is ONE OF the top talents in the NFL which he is… 

Of course we’ll never be able to tell, but I’d be curious how Allen and mahomes would perform if they swapped teams.  It’s impossible to not give mahomes the number 1 ranking with all the hardware he has but we have seen him falter when his offensive line isn’t protecting him well.  

 

josh gets the oline play pretty much every week that mahomes got against TB in the Super Bowl lol

 

 

 

 

[Thurman#1]

21 hours ago, Tipster19 said:

Think about that. In its simplicity why is that? This has to be Beane’s biggest error/flaw and may just cost him his job. It’s very frustrating to just watch this underperforming OL and realize the results it’s going to bring. 

 

 

 

As usual, and especially with people who say this often, what looks simple and is often loudly called simple is often complex and multi-faceted in real life. Stuff that fits a person's confirmation bias doesn't get the slightest real-world check in the brain, it's just bring out the pitchforks time.

 

This thread is a pretty good example.

 

Joe Marino did a play-by-play breakdown of the pressure on Josh and found that a lot of it was on Josh himself. Backing up into rushers who had been directed too deep around him without any pressure forcing that backup. Leaving clean pockets. And so on.

 

 

 

It's in the first ten minutes.

 

Here's an example of one play that was not Allen's fault according to Joe:  "#4 you had a completion to Stefon Diggs on a first and ten on a comeback route. Josh faced a little pressure in his face because DeMarvin Leal, the Pittsburgh Steelers defensive tackle executed a good bull rush on O'Cyrus Torrence who got worked back into Allen and it affected him just a little bit but it was still a good throw and completion to Stefon Diggs. I would say the reason for the pressure was O'Cyrus Torrence. His hands were wide and late and so DeMarvin Leal was able to get into his chest and work him back and so the pressure on that play, the responsibility for that is O'Cyrus Torrence."

 

Interestingly, he blamed one play on Kincaid, saying he completely missed a chip he was supposed to make, which left Dawkins in an impossible position.

 

His conclusion was there were 12 dropbacks, and he was pressured on six of them, including the sack. He blamed Allen's pocket management for three of them. "Two times, I "guess" it was Dion Dawkins but I thought that was more of a result of Josh Allen and his pocket management. So big asterisk, big air quotes around Dion Dawkins for two of them."

 

Blamed Brown for one, one on Torrence and one on Dalton Kincaid.

 

Marino also points out how terrific the protection was for Barkley and Kyle Allen. Hmmm.

 

 

 

 

 

[Billsfan1972]

19 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I see it as a problem.   Great quarterbacks win Super Bowls.  Great players who play quarterback tend not to.   Michael Vick is perhaps the best example.  Cam Newton is another.  

 

When John Elway was a great player, he didn't win Super Bowls.   When he learned to play quarterback, he did.  

Then what is Mahomes????? Are you saying Mahomes is a great QB & Allen only a great player who is a QB?  Very few QB's win a Superbowl and we can add Hurts to the list above too as he has yet to win????

 

Again Shaw66 I expect McD shoulders none of the blame either????

[FilthyBeast]

1 hour ago, The Jokeman said:

Beane added 3 starting caliber OGs in this offseason in McGovern, Edwards and Torrence. He also added a guy like Shell in who's started a few years. What else do you want him to do?

 

Torrance looks like a real find but obviously need to see what he does when the games actually matter (and stay healthy which has been a big issue with younger players in recent years).

 

I still think Morse is just average finesse type player and one more concussion away from being done with football period.

 

But getting back to tackle, if Brown is a bust and Dawkins is in a steep decline obviously won't matter how strong your interior is if pressure from edge is an issue and that's how most QB's get seriously injured with the blindside hits vs pocket collapsing in the middle.

[Alphadawg7]

21 hours ago, Tipster19 said:

Ok, I guess the real test will be the Jets’ DL against this impenetrable wall that we have as an OL. Me personally I don’t expect to like the results.

Come on man, talk about being unreasonable and whiney just to be whiney.  What did you think was gonna happen?  Did you expect Beane to trade for 5 picks in the first 2 rounds to rebuild every OL spot in one offseason?

 

We signed guys in FA and then drafted one of the best OL prospects in the draft who has looked the part so far as well.

 

These threads are dumb.  If you’re going to start one then at the very least post what SPECIFICALLY Beane could have done different this offseason.  
 

I mean he made the most moves on OL than any other position on the team this year. 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Alphadawg7