Dorian and my pet peeve with the staff on rookies

[Alphadawg7]

19 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Huh? How hard could it possibly be? Edmunds did it and he didn’t sound like a Rhodes scholar when he spoke.

You really think Bernard was a good pick in the 3rd round? I don’t think there is a single person that thought that was a good pick. Virtually no except McD thinks he is a capable NFL linebacker. Which really begs the question who makes these draft day decisions?

 

I think you need to go back and read the posts because 1) I said nothing about Bernard and 2) We were discussing Dorian and whether he has any potential or not at MLB in the first place.  

[billsfan89]

3 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

To me the OP has the right hope but placed in the wrong spot. 

 

Let's get Kincaid out there early.  Early and often.   It is so much a possibility people seem to take it for granted now.  Use Kincaid from the start.   You let Kincaid play through errors if necessary.  Kincaid is the guy to use quickly

 

Get Torrence PT and hopefully starting by 4-5 games into the season.

 

As for Williams, not so fast.  I've been surprised the MLB hasn't been a Klein/Rapp split from the start.   Williams is in no way Kincaid.

 

Shakir wasn't ready for a larger role then.  And I don't know if he has earned a role now even.  Cook needed time but has responded, Shakir not so much.

 

Torrence and Kincaid were the best players in the draft at their position both should be plugged in right away. Williams should be worked in with Klein at MLB and hopefully he will take things over. Shakir will get worked in as he progresses. 

[Alphadawg7]

4 minutes ago, AuntieEm said:

Doesn't help when you read it back it sounds like seize enough not to stand out as the wrong word.

 

 

 

Yeah, also doesn't help not wanting to get up and get my newly needed glasses now that I am 47 because I have a 13 week old baby on my lap haha

[PonyBoy]

Is this a hidden we should have kept Edmunds thread? 🤔

[VW82]

There are certain guys you can bring and have them be day one starters. O'Cyrus looks like that type of player. 

 

Dorian flashes but he looks raw. Edmunds was similarly raw but we weren't really playing for anything five years ago. MLB is a really important part of any NFL defense let alone McD's. It makes sense to start someone like Klein while young guys like Williams and Bernard (ha) learn. 

 

This is an instance where I trust McD, and I wouldn't be surprised to see someone like Williams step up later in the year once he gets the hang of what we're trying to do. Cook made a similar mini leap second half of last year.  

 

Also, and not to derail the thread, but Elam looks lost despite lots of hand holding. Some guys never get it. Too much, too soon is a real thing for some of these kids.

[Alphadawg7]

12 minutes ago, PonyBoy said:

Is this a hidden we should have kept Edmunds thread? 🤔

 

Nope, while I knew Edmunds loss was gonna be worse than most people thought, I also didn't want to spend the money to resign him.   

 

This is a thread on how we have an open competition at a specific position and we are not letting a rookie, who might be the most talented option, currently try and compete for that position even though the other guys have yet to seize the opportunity.  

Edited August 21, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[PBF81]

24 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

You are not even making sense now.  The majority of our key players were drafted by this staff and front office.  

 

What is the evidence of "heavily" reliant upon free agents?  

 

Of our projected starting roster, here are the players that Beane has drafted, not including Allen, who's the one we're talking about protecting: 

 

Offense

Davis WR

Torrence OG

Brown OT

Knox TE

Cook RB  

 

Defense

Rousseau

Oliver 

Bernard 

Elam

Taron Johnson 

 

That impressive to you?  

 

 

24 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I didn't alter the context at all...I specifically said its too early to play the hindsight game with Cook.  You are just stating your opinion that Cook won't be a good RB and that Dean will be a "solid" LB.  We don't know either of those things yet, so again, too early to play hindsight games.  

 

Even if Cook develops into an average RB, or even above-average, we still have a hole at MLB.  My take has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Cook is any good or not.  RBs are all but a dime a dozen these days.  MLBs are not.  

 

It's a where do we get more utility, and where are we more hurtin' without a player in a role.  I don't think that there's much argument that we're worse off w/o a good MLB than we'd be without Cook.  So yes, it is context.  

 

 

24 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Am I the only one that catches the irony here lmao?  You are literally complaining we drafted offense instead of defense with Cook while also simultaneously ranting that its because our HC is obsessed with defense?  Lol, how does that even make sense lmao

 

Incorrect.  And I know what I think, thanks.  I've tried to explain it, but you're not comprehending what I'm writing.  See the para above.  A MLB is a huge piece to be missing from a defense.  My point is that Beane had no plan for Edmunds' departure, of if he did it was inadequate.  I'll let you choose between the two options.  I don't care.  

 

Our play at MLB this season is going to be well below average.  Who knows what our play at RB will be, but given that it's much easier to replace a RB, seems that in the case of a MLB, it may have been wise to deal with that first.  

 

Clearly you see it otherwise, so we can agree to disagree.  The season will provide more insight as to whether it matters.  

 

My criticisms of Beane's approach to offense are largely limited to his approach, or lack thereof, of getting an above-average OL in place, not RBs, which is last on the list.  

 

 

[RoyBatty is alive]

24 minutes ago, VW82 said:

There are certain guys you can bring and have them be day one starters. O'Cyrus looks like that type of player. 

 

Dorian flashes but he looks raw. Edmunds was similarly raw but we weren't really playing for anything five years ago. MLB is a really important part of any NFL defense let alone McD's. It makes sense to start someone like Klein while young guys like Williams and Bernard (ha) learn. 

 

This is an instance where I trust McD, and I wouldn't be surprised to see someone like Williams step up later in the year once he gets the hang of what we're trying to do. Cook made a similar mini leap second half of last year.  

 

Also, and not to derail the thread, but Elam looks lost despite lots of hand holding. Some guys never get it. Too much, too soon is a real thing for some of these kids.

Agree om everything, especially on Elam.  I was a huge supporter of him coming into this year but he looks lost, so far.  Still holding out hope but he looks BAD.  And your comment about hand holding, not sure how you meant that but he is a very "handsy" cornerback.

 

At some point i think he will probably be a better safety and he has the size.

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Of our projected starting roster, here are the players that Beane has drafted, not including Allen, who's the one we're talking about protecting: 

 

Offense

Davis WR

Torrence OG

Brown OT

Knox TE

Cook RB  

 

Defense

Rousseau

Oliver 

Bernard 

Elam

Taron Johnson 

 

That impressive to you?  

 

Well you left of Tre, Dion, and Milano who were drafted with McD here who had a heavy hand in that draft and works with Beane on our current drafts, so don't think you get to exclude them as its still part of this regime.  

 

2 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

 

 

Even if Cook develops into an average RB, or even above-average, we still have a hole at MLB.  My take has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Cook is any good or not.  RBs are all but a dime a dozen these days.  MLBs are not.  

 

It's a where do we get more utility, and where are we more hurtin' without a player in a role.  I don't think that there's much argument that we're worse off w/o a good MLB than we'd be without Cook.  So yes, it is context.  

 

And if Dean doesn't work out and Cook becomes a pro-bowl RB, you would be wrong in your assessment that hindsight we should have drafted Dean...Hence its too early to play the hindsight game with these players.  Not sure how this is confusing to you on this point.  

 

2 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

 

 

Incorrect.  And I know what I think, thanks.  I've tried to explain it, but you're not comprehending what I'm writing.  See the para above.  A MLB is a huge piece to be missing from a defense.  My point is that Beane had no plan for Edmunds' departure, of if he did it was inadequate.  I'll let you choose between the two options.  I don't care.  

 

Our play at MLB this season is going to be well below average.  Who knows what our play at RB will be, but given that it's much easier to replace a RB, seems that in the case of a MLB, it may have been wise to deal with that first.  

 

Clearly you see it otherwise, so we can agree to disagree.  The season will provide more insight as to whether it matters.  

 

My criticisms of Beane's approach to offense are largely limited to his approach, or lack thereof, of getting an above-average OL in place, not RBs, which is last on the list.  

 

 

 

Make your mind up...on one hand you are complaining our HC has put too much emphasis on defensive players while complaining about drafting an offensive player.  You don't see the irony there?  

 

I am fine agreeing to disagree, but I don't even know what we are agreeing to disagree on.  I mean I was all for drafting a LB, so not sure what it is you think I disagree with in that regard.  

[MJS]

The Bills play rookies all the time, they just didn't with Cook and Elam last year. Most rookies have played right away under this regime.

[AuntieEm]

27 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Of our projected starting roster, here are the players that Beane has drafted, not including Allen, who's the one we're talking about protecting: 

 

Offense

Davis WR

Torrence OG

Brown OT

Knox TE

Cook RB  

 

Defense

Rousseau

Oliver 

Bernard 

Elam

Taron Johnson 

 

That impressive to you?  

 

 

 

Even if Cook develops into an average RB, or even above-average, we still have a hole at MLB.  My take has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Cook is any good or not.  RBs are all but a dime a dozen these days.  MLBs are not.  

 

It's a where do we get more utility, and where are we more hurtin' without a player in a role.  I don't think that there's much argument that we're worse off w/o a good MLB than we'd be without Cook.  So yes, it is context.  

 

 

 

Incorrect.  And I know what I think, thanks.  I've tried to explain it, but you're not comprehending what I'm writing.  See the para above.  A MLB is a huge piece to be missing from a defense.  My point is that Beane had no plan for Edmunds' departure, of if he did it was inadequate.  I'll let you choose between the two options.  I don't care.  

 

Our play at MLB this season is going to be well below average.  Who knows what our play at RB will be, but given that it's much easier to replace a RB, seems that in the case of a MLB, it may have been wise to deal with that first.  

 

Clearly you see it otherwise, so we can agree to disagree.  The season will provide more insight as to whether it matters.  

 

My criticisms of Beane's approach to offense are largely limited to his approach, or lack thereof, of getting an above-average OL in place, not RBs, which is last on the list.  

 

 

Heck you fix an oline then it almost doesn't matter who you got at rb. 

Edited August 21, 2023 by AuntieEm

[Buffalo_Stampede]

 

 

 

[FireChans]

18 minutes ago, MJS said:

The Bills play rookies all the time, they just didn't with Cook and Elam last year. Most rookies have played right away under this regime.

The Bills don’t play rookies who suck. They just have a lot of them.

[Augie]

1 hour ago, PonyBoy said:

Is this a hidden we should have kept Edmunds thread? 🤔

 

I don’t think so, but it can be an “I told you so” to those who thought he was pure trash. He had value, but I don’t get $18mil/year. 

[GunnerBill]

They actually said straight away after picking him that they saw him more as an outside guy. And watching his gap discipline and taking on blocks I don't think he is close to ready to play the MIKE.

 

I get it the alternatives are rubbish. Maybe they have to find a way to make the Milano - Williams duo work... but I still suspect to do that now you'd end up with Milano playing the more disciplined MLB role and Williams a little more free to roam as a WLB. 

 

I just think people convincing themselves that if they just went to Williams or just play Rapp in dime looks it would all be okay are slightly deluding themselves. There is no easy answer on the roster unless Bernard gets healthy and suddenly clicks.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

They actually said straight away after picking him that they saw him more as an outside guy. And watching his gap discipline and taking on blocks I don't think he is close to ready to play the MIKE.

 

I get it the alternatives are rubbish. Maybe they have to find a way to make the Milano - Williams duo work... but I still suspect to do that now you'd end up with Milano playing the more disciplined MLB role and Williams a little more free to roam as a WLB. 

 

I just think people convincing themselves that if they just went to Williams or just play Rapp in dime looks it would all be okay are slightly deluding themselves. There is no easy answer on the roster unless Bernard gets healthy and suddenly clicks.

I don’t get the last comment. Suddenly clicks? We know absolutely nothing about Bernard.

[Jauronimo]

5 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I have a love-hate relationship with how McD and the staff have handled rookies.  Unless we have had no choice, we often bring them along slowly.  And its hard to argue against the results given they have developed a lot of young talent into superstars, quality starters, or good role players.  

 

BUT...there are times where it just doesn't make sense and they need to get the rookies move involved and still don't.  And I just don't understand the hesitation at times.  

 

For example Shakir last year.  With Crowder going down and McKenzie struggling as the top slot WR, it made no sense to not give Shakir more reps out there to at least get him some experience and see what he could do.  And they could have always added Cole after if he wasn't up to the task.  Instead, we are entering this year with him penciled in as the slot still with big question marks around him because we didn't get him on the field enough last year despite some promising plays from him.  Even AJE, they took him 2nd round and then buried him on the depth chart behind guys at the end of their careers and he basically barely saw any time as a rookie.  And honestly, he has never not been buried despite strong camps, showing some promise, and even a 6.5 sack season last year.  

 

This year for me its Dorian Williams.  We came in with a huge hole at MLB, they said he was drafted with the intent he could be a candidate to play at MLB.  But then they open camp running him behind Milano where he won't see the field much without injuries.  Meanwhile our MLB position is grossly unsettled while Dorian has been shining at a position he likely won't see the field much at.  And I get the concept of them not wanting a rookie learn two positions, but that also means someone else is ready to step up at MLB, and so far that isn't happening.  

 

I am hoping the continued unsettled nature of the MLB will cause them to start getting Dorian some reps in practice soon or early in the season for a possible switch by mid to late season.  He is showing a lot of promise, and I just hope they don't sit on this kid for a season like they have done at times in the past.  If someone doesn't lock down the MLB position, they absolutely better see if Dorian can be the guy before we head into next offseason.  

A year later and I'm not convinced that Shakir deserves a roster spot.  Gotta know the playbook if you want reps and you better catch the ball when thrown to you.

 

Epenesa still isn't a starting material.  He needed two years to transform his body from a plodding power rusher to an undersized speed rusher or something like that.

 

Dorian has reportedly looked lost in practice at WLB.  Forget about MLB for now.  

 

Rookies who are ready to play have played.  Shakirs, Epenesas, and undersized linebackers get to watch and learn.

[Alphadawg7]

23 minutes ago, MJS said:

The Bills play rookies all the time, they just didn't with Cook and Elam last year. Most rookies have played right away under this regime.

 

The list is a bit longer than that in recent years.  Earlier years when the roster was bad, sure, rookies had a quicker path to the starting lineup.  But the last few years guys like Cook, Elam, Shakir, AJE, Boogie, and now Dorian have had slow paths to the field despite having the need for help at their respective positions.  

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

The list is a bit longer than that in recent years.  Earlier years when the roster was bad, sure, rookies had a quicker path to the starting lineup.  But the last few years guys like Cook, Elam, Shakir, AJE, Boogie, and now Dorian have had slow paths to the field despite having the need for help at their respective positions.  

Do you think there’s probably a correlation with how good those players are and how much playing time they get? 
 

Are we even sure that Elam, Shakir, AJE, Boogie, Bernard and Williams will be in the league in 3 years?

[PBF81]

52 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Well you left of Tre, Dion, and Milano who were drafted with McD here who had a heavy hand in that draft and works with Beane on our current drafts, so don't think you get to exclude them as its still part of this regime.  

 

Beane didn't draft them, so that pretty much takes care of that.  I'm pretty sure that Beane was hired after that draft, so if he "had a heavy hand in that draft" that'd be pretty impressive.  Too bad he hasn't come close since otherwise.  

 

 

52 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

And if Dean doesn't work out and Cook becomes a pro-bowl RB, you would be wrong in your assessment that hindsight we should have drafted Dean...Hence its too early to play the hindsight game with these players.  Not sure how this is confusing to you on this point.  

 

Well, it's pretty certain that we'll be without even an average MLB this season.  Again, and you seem to have missed this, it's about marginal differences, not an offensive player vs. a defensive player.  Thinking that way is how the better GMs build better teams.  That's our problem in large measure.  

 

 

52 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Make your mind up...on one hand you are complaining our HC has put too much emphasis on defensive players while complaining about drafting an offensive player.  You don't see the irony there?  

 

Again, untrue, you're trying to make it that way.  Again, I know what I think thanks. 

 

 

52 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I am fine agreeing to disagree, but I don't even know what we are agreeing to disagree on.  I mean I was all for drafting a LB, so not sure what it is you think I disagree with in that regard.  

 

Great.  But I originally responded to your statement ... 

 

Quote

 

This year for me its Dorian Williams.  We came in with a huge hole at MLB, they said he was drafted with the intent he could be a candidate to play at MLB.  

 

 

All I did was to point out that if that's true, then they came to that conclusion on their own.  Absolutely no one with any notable credentials in the NFL Draft world suggested that Williams was even capable of playing MLB.  

 

You're defending that thinking by Beane & Co.  

I'm saying it's problematic when a GM drafts a player with the intention of playing a position that absolutely no one else believes he's capable of playing effectively, and suggesting that if "we" (the "they" that you refer to above) really thought that, then it should raise questions about those that thought it since it's far from reality.  As it turns out, that's exactly the case as well.  Perhaps take it up with them.  But if you want to talk about irony, that might be a good place to start.  Defending the people that thought something like that.  

 

And FWIW, I took an absolute rash here after the Draft suggesting the same, that Williams was ill-qualified to play MLB.  I was told that "they" are experts and I don't know what they do.  No, I didn't watch him at Tulane, I'm also not one of those people that claims to have watched our draft picks play extensively whereever they played college ball.  But I can read many Draft Profiles by people that did along with his strengths and weaknesses.  If others, including our own FO ignore the obvious, well, that's on them, don't you think?  Not sure why you're defending them.  

 

Either way, we disagree there.  

 

Go BILLS!!!!

 

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by PBF81