Dorian and my pet peeve with the staff on rookies

[Alphadawg7]

I have a love-hate relationship with how McD and the staff have handled rookies.  Unless we have had no choice, we often bring them along slowly.  And its hard to argue against the results given they have developed a lot of young talent into superstars, quality starters, or good role players.  

 

BUT...there are times where it just doesn't make sense and they need to get the rookies move involved and still don't.  And I just don't understand the hesitation at times.  

 

For example Shakir last year.  With Crowder going down and McKenzie struggling as the top slot WR, it made no sense to not give Shakir more reps out there to at least get him some experience and see what he could do.  And they could have always added Cole after if he wasn't up to the task.  Instead, we are entering this year with him penciled in as the slot still with big question marks around him because we didn't get him on the field enough last year despite some promising plays from him.  Even AJE, they took him 2nd round and then buried him on the depth chart behind guys at the end of their careers and he basically barely saw any time as a rookie.  And honestly, he has never not been buried despite strong camps, showing some promise, and even a 6.5 sack season last year.  

 

This year for me its Dorian Williams.  We came in with a huge hole at MLB, they said he was drafted with the intent he could be a candidate to play at MLB.  But then they open camp running him behind Milano where he won't see the field much without injuries.  Meanwhile our MLB position is grossly unsettled while Dorian has been shining at a position he likely won't see the field much at.  And I get the concept of them not wanting a rookie learn two positions, but that also means someone else is ready to step up at MLB, and so far that isn't happening.  

 

I am hoping the continued unsettled nature of the MLB will cause them to start getting Dorian some reps in practice soon or early in the season for a possible switch by mid to late season.  He is showing a lot of promise, and I just hope they don't sit on this kid for a season like they have done at times in the past.  If someone doesn't lock down the MLB position, they absolutely better see if Dorian can be the guy before we head into next offseason.  

[VaMilBill]

I think a great example was with Milano when he was a rookie. He clearly flashed in nearly all games he played in. But they wouldn’t start him and he would rotate in and out of the lineup. 
 

I think at this point, Dorian can’t be any worse than Dodson. Might as well give him the experience and maybe he will grow into something better than Dodson. Dodson is a known quantity 

[John from Riverside]

First, let me say that I absolutely believe that Dorian should be playing that Mike linebacker position rookie mistakes be damned
 

But I understand it we are a championship caliber team, and McDermott doesn’t wanna play a rookie in the middle of his defense

Edited August 21, 2023 by John from Riverside

[NoSaint]

2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

First, let me say that I absolutely believe that Dorian should be playing that Mike linebacker position rookie mistakes be damned
 

But I understand it we are a championship caliber team, and McDermott doesn’t wanna play a rookie in the middle of his defense

that’s why you have to get them reps early and often. So they aren’t playing like rookies later

[boyst]

meh on williams. we drafted the wrong LB to play MLB.

[Prospector]

2 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

that’s why you have to get them reps early and often. So they aren’t playing like rookies later

I kind of agree with this... couldn't be much worse than what Dodson did, and he should continually get better as the year progresses... where as Dodson may have hit his ceiling

[Saxum]

7 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

First, let me say that I absolutely believe that Dorian should be playing that Mike linebacker position rookie mistakes be damned
 

But I understand it we are a championship caliber team, and McDermott doesn’t wanna play a rookie in the middle of his defense

 

It is very hard for a rookie to come in and make calls on defense even if player has skills to play the position.

 

[fergie's ire]

I think McDermott's handling of Williams is influenced by his experience with Bernard last year.  I heard him saying that Bernard's head was spinning last year because there was too much for him to learn.  Matches what we saw on the field.  A player whose strength was supposed to be reacting and quickness was slow and a step behind.  It always looked like he was thinking too much and unsure of himself.  Again, sometime during OTAs, I heard McDermott mention that and mentioning that they wanted to keep things simpler for Williams.  If they keep it simple by having him just focus on learning the Will, he can be a valuable backup and sub, unlike Bernard who was useless last year.

[Shaw66]

Well, I just logged in to see if there was some news out of practice that Williams was taking reps in the middle.  I found no news, but at least there was some speculation on the subject. 

 

Alpha, I gotta say I don't completely agree, because I think McD knows more about this than we do.  At least in general.  

 

I've watched a lot of kids go from high school sports to college sports and a lot go from college to the pros, and there is one comment that is repeated regularly:   It's a big jump.  It's not the same game, and the talent and knowledge levels of the veterans is way above that of the rookies coming in.  I think coaches will tell you that they see it all the time - the rookies on the team simply can't compete with the veterans on the team.  Many of the rookies actually take a year or two before they can compete, and two or more years before they can hold their own.   It's just in the nature of sports.  

 

And what goes along with that is what McDermott always says about his players - it's a competition, and the best player gets the playing time.  The best player is not the player with the most potential; it's the player who plays the best.  A couple of weeks ago I was arguing with people daily about why Elam isn't getting more playing time.  One of the arguments was that he needs the experience on the field to get better.  He's the most talented, so the Bills should let him grow into the position by playing him.   That is not how McDermott does it, and I think McDermott is right.   Among other reasons, he's right because the  players on the team know who the best players are, and they want the best players on the field.  They don't want to spill their guts every Sunday playing beside a guy who has potential.  They want the best players out there.  Every second string player on a team wants playing time so that he can grow and develop and prove himself, but the coach can't run the team that way. 

 

As for Williams, there are some arguments to be made to the contrary, but even then, I think we have to defer to the coaches.  You and others make this argument they drafted him to play the middle and then declared at the start of camp that he would begin his career exclusively on the outside.  Well, that declaration was made after they saw him in rookie camp and OTAs.   I think they saw him and realized he just isn't ready yet.  What did they see?   I don't know, but it probably was that he didn't see the field nearly well enough, that he had trouble learning all of the new concepts they were throwing at him.   Whatever, I'm pretty sure that they decided that he just needed time to grow.  I trust that judgment. 

 

Now, things are a little different.  I haven't seen the games, but the reports have been that he's held up pretty well when he's gotten time on the field.  The game hasn't been too big or too fast for him.  So, there's that.   In the middle, on the other hand, no one has stepped up and clearly won the job.  Dodson hasn't done it.   Bernard had his rookie season to get used to the size and speed of the game, but before he got injured he wasn't opening eyes and showing people that he was realizing the potential Beane and McDermott had seen in him.   And there are football games to be played. 

 

For me, the problem is not who's going to play middle linebacker in two weeks against the Jets.  I want to know who's going to play middle linebacker in December.  From what I've heard, only Williams has shown the kind of talent the Bills need at the position.  In this situation, I think the need at the position may call for a different approach than usual.  I would, as you suggest, start teaching him the job now and get him on the field in the middle in the next two preseason games.  If it means having Milano or Hyde call the defense, fine.  Just get him experience and force feed his growth.   In fact, if it's necessary, put Milano in the middle and leave Williams outside.   One way or the other, it's hard to ignore his talent when the other guys are struggling as much as they are. 

[Alphadawg7]

4 minutes ago, fergie's ire said:

I think McDermott's handling of Williams is influenced by his experience with Bernard last year.  I heard him saying that Bernard's head was spinning last year because there was too much for him to learn.  Matches what we saw on the field.  A player whose strength was supposed to be reacting and quickness was slow and a step behind.  It always looked like he was thinking too much and unsure of himself.  Again, sometime during OTAs, I heard McDermott mention that and mentioning that they wanted to keep things simpler for Williams.  If they keep it simple by having him just focus on learning the Will, he can be a valuable backup and sub, unlike Bernard who was useless last year.

 

I definitely understand this approach, and its not wrong, and McD and company have successfully developed guys this way in the past.  However, there comes a time where the hole is too glaring to not start getting the kid exposed to the position and seeing if he can develop there enough this year to be a better option.

 

I am not saying throw Dorian to the wolves at MLB right now, I mean he hasn't been learning the position at all thus far.  I am just saying start getting the kid some reps in practice in case they need to try and make a change later in the season given we haven't seen anyone step up and look ready to cease control of the MLB spot yet.

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, I just logged in to see if there was some news out of practice that Williams was taking reps in the middle.  I found no news, but at least there was some speculation on the subject. 

 

Alpha, I gotta say I don't completely agree, because I think McD knows more about this than we do.  At least in general.  

 

I've watched a lot of kids go from high school sports to college sports and a lot go from college to the pros, and there is one comment that is repeated regularly:   It's a big jump.  It's not the same game, and the talent and knowledge levels of the veterans is way above that of the rookies coming in.  I think coaches will tell you that they see it all the time - the rookies on the team simply can't compete with the veterans on the team.  Many of the rookies actually take a year or two before they can compete, and two or more years before they can hold their own.   It's just in the nature of sports.  

 

And what goes along with that is what McDermott always says about his players - it's a competition, and the best player gets the playing time.  The best player is not the player with the most potential; it's the player who plays the best.  A couple of weeks ago I was arguing with people daily about why Elam isn't getting more playing time.  One of the arguments was that he needs the experience on the field to get better.  He's the most talented, so the Bills should let him grow into the position by playing him.   That is not how McDermott does it, and I think McDermott is right.   Among other reasons, he's right because the  players on the team know who the best players are, and they want the best players on the field.  They don't want to spill their guts every Sunday playing beside a guy who has potential.  They want the best players out there.  Every second string player on a team wants playing time so that he can grow and develop and prove himself, but the coach can't run the team that way. 

 

As for Williams, there are some arguments to be made to the contrary, but even then, I think we have to defer to the coaches.  You and others make this argument they drafted him to play the middle and then declared at the start of camp that he would begin his career exclusively on the outside.  Well, that declaration was made after they saw him in rookie camp and OTAs.   I think they saw him and realized he just isn't ready yet.  What did they see?   I don't know, but it probably was that he didn't see the field nearly well enough, that he had trouble learning all of the new concepts they were throwing at him.   Whatever, I'm pretty sure that they decided that he just needed time to grow.  I trust that judgment. 

 

Now, things are a little different.  I haven't seen the games, but the reports have been that he's held up pretty well when he's gotten time on the field.  The game hasn't been too big or too fast for him.  So, there's that.   In the middle, on the other hand, no one has stepped up and clearly won the job.  Dodson hasn't done it.   Bernard had his rookie season to get used to the size and speed of the game, but before he got injured he wasn't opening eyes and showing people that he was realizing the potential Beane and McDermott had seen in him.   And there are football games to be played. 

 

For me, the problem is not who's going to play middle linebacker in two weeks against the Jets.  I want to know who's going to play middle linebacker in December.  From what I've heard, only Williams has shown the kind of talent the Bills need at the position.  In this situation, I think the need at the position may call for a different approach than usual.  I would, as you suggest, start teaching him the job now and get him on the field in the middle in the next two preseason games.  If it means having Milano or Hyde call the defense, fine.  Just get him experience and force feed his growth.   In fact, if it's necessary, put Milano in the middle and leave Williams outside.   One way or the other, it's hard to ignore his talent when the other guys are struggling as much as they are. 

 

I don't take any exception to anything stated here, and I agree that the coaches have shown they can develop guys in the past.  But, sometimes the hole is too glaring to not try and get the better talent ready sooner rather than later.  Sometimes, out of need usually, you got to trust the kids talents and test his ability to get ready to play the position.  And right now, until someone steps up, it appears we have a big need still at MLB and that Dorian has the potential to be the better player at MLB.  

 

If the MLB continues to be a weak point, I hope they give him a chance to see if he can be ready to step up into this spot later in the year if needed.  

[NewEra]

37 minutes ago, boyst said:

meh on williams. we drafted the wrong LB to play MLB.

That may be true, but the other options are even worse and have little to no chance to ever be starters at any position.  At least this kid has a chance to be an average to plus starter at mlb.  
 

The Bernard injury really sucks.  I think they wanted Bernard to win the job.  When Dodson loses his cool and plays poorly in the games, the door was wide open.  Too bad Bernard couldn’t walk through it with an injured hammys.  I’m not his biggest fan due to his size but he’s the only other guy that I think can do what mcdermott wants at the position in coverage. 

 

I’d like to see a healthy competition between Williams and Bernard.  Let’s them battle and improve and hope one can be a solid starter down the stretch and going forward 

[billsfan89]

53 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

First, let me say that I absolutely believe that Dorian should be playing that Mike linebacker position rookie mistakes be damned
 

But I understand it we are a championship caliber team, and McDermott doesn’t wanna play a rookie in the middle of his defense

I think splitting time between Klein and Dorian makes sense. I think you have to live with rookie mistakes early on and let him roll so that hopefully late in the season he comes on strong

[Shaw66]

42 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I don't take any exception to anything stated here, and I agree that the coaches have shown they can develop guys in the past.  But, sometimes the hole is too glaring to not try and get the better talent ready sooner rather than later.  Sometimes, out of need usually, you got to trust the kids talents and test his ability to get ready to play the position.  And right now, until someone steps up, it appears we have a big need still at MLB and that Dorian has the potential to be the better player at MLB.  

 

If the MLB continues to be a weak point, I hope they give him a chance to see if he can be ready to step up into this spot later in the year if needed.  

I agree.  I guess it's the hole that makes this different.   Look at Torrence and Bates.   If Torrence had talent but didn't know what he was doing, they'd just play Bates there until Torrence developed.   The problem at middle linebacker is that they don't have anyone in the position whose at least passable, or at least it seems that way.  Under those circumstances, it seems to me you put the most talented guy out there and work with him.

 

Maybe McDermott thinks Dodson isn't as bad as people here do.  Maybe he thinks Dodson is Bates, and he can hold the fort until someone more talented (Bernard or Williams) raises his game.   Actually, I doubt that, because his comment about being "concerned" didn't sound like the sort of thing he'd say if he had to play Bates at guard.  He wouldn't say he was concerned.  

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I say start Dorian now so we can hate him quicker than normal.

[Alphadawg7]

13 minutes ago, NewEra said:

That may be true, but the other options are even worse and have little to no chance to ever be starters at any position.  At least this kid has a chance to be an average to plus starter at mlb.  
 

The Bernard injury really sucks.  I think they wanted Bernard to win the job.  When Dodson loses his cool and plays poorly in the games, the door was wide open.  Too bad Bernard couldn’t walk through it with an injured hammys.  I’m not his biggest fan due to his size but he’s the only other guy that I think can do what mcdermott wants at the position in coverage. 

 

I’d like to see a healthy competition between Williams and Bernard.  Let’s them battle and improve and hope one can be a solid starter down the stretch and going forward 

 

It still may be Bernards job to lose if he can get back in time as Dodson's lack of discipline and mental struggles at the position are keeping that door open for him.  

 

And not only is he still unproven there, but like you said his size is a concern in terms of being able to play a full season at MLB.  Which is where I keep coming back to the need to start seeing if Dorian can acclimate to the position here as the season goes on to see if he can be a better option as the season progresses.  

 

 

You know, its possible that maybe they are keeping Dorian at OLB in case there is a dooms day scenario where MLB just remains a big issue and they have no choice but to slide Milano over down the stretch and Dorian would be ready to step in at OLB in that case.  Not saying they are planning on that, but it also would not shock me if that is part of the consideration on why Dorian is at OLB primarily right now.  Obviously they want/hope that someone else like Bernard, Dodson, etc step up and cease control of the spot, but if they falter they will have to consider other options there as it's an important position in McD's defense.  

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 And its hard to argue against the results given they have developed a lot of young talent into superstars, quality starters, or good role players.  

 

Is it hard to argue?
 

Imo there is 1 developed superstar 17, one borderline developed star 58, handful of starters/role players of varying quality, 91, 50, 73, 13, bass, 88, 27. Maybe Cook…. 
 

they originally built a solid roster, it seems like sustaining it has not gone as well. 
 

Too many high dollar declining players for my liking, and the young talent pipeline doesn’t seem to be there. 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[RoyBatty is alive]

1 hour ago, boyst said:

meh on williams. we drafted the wrong LB to play MLB.

Gee, amazing how many times you are going to bring this up.

[FilthyBeast]

I actually give all the credit in the world to this regime for putting Kincaid and Torrence right into the mix as rookies and both look like clear cut day one starters and contributors out of the gate.

 

There's obviously a reason though they don't want Williams playing MLB despite the gaping hole there right now.....we just need to wait a little long to understand what exactly that reason is.

[Alphadawg7]

Just now, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Is it hard to argue?
 

Imo there is 1 developed superstar 17, one borderline developed star 58, handful of starters/role players of varying quality, 91, 50, 73, 13, bass, 88, 27. Maybe Cook…. 
 

they originally built a solid roster, it seems like sustaining it has gone as well. 
 

Too many high dollar declining players for my liking, and the young talent pipeline doesn’t seem to be there. 

 

 

I mean they drafted a majority of their best players and starters.  Allen and Edmunds were both raw...Allen became elite and Edmunds made multiple probowls and was top 5 in tackles since entering the league (and proving it can get a lot worse at MLB with him now gone).  Then you got Milano who is one of the better OLB in the league and Tre who was one of the best corners in the league before injury.  They took a raw TE out of college and made him into a pretty good player in Knox who has 15 TD's the last 2 seasons despite limited usage in the pass game and never catching a TD in college.  Then they took a DE in Groot who sat out his last year of college and was raw coming out and turned him into a promising and pretty good young player for us.  

 

Then you have guys who have been good to solid for the team as well such as Oliver, Taron, Benford, Devin, etc too.  Then there is still promising young talent where its too early to know like Elam, Shakir, Cook, Dorian, and of course the big one in Kincaid.  

 

So I personally think they have done a pretty good overall job in developing guys here in a lot of cases even if I don't agree on how they handled some of them like I mentioned in my OP.