Good Night / Bad Night - Pre-season game 2

[3rdand12]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Well that was a mess. The worst pre-season outing for many a year, probably the worst under this regime who have generally had very strong pre-seasons. Not a huge number of positives let's have a go at picking the bones out of it...

 

Good Night for...

 

Dalton Kincaid - Let's start with the first round pick. 3 receptions for 45 yards, but it wasn't just the numbers it was how he did it. The two great traits on his college tape were his smooth route running and excellent soft hands. They were both on display last night as, operating mainly out of the slot, he tested the middle of the Steelers defense. The potential for this guy to have an impact as a rookie is definitely there. He still has some work to do as a blocker, we know that, but as long as Knox is back in the lineup one would presume he will be asked to do that fleetingly. Good to see him get some chemistry with Josh Allen and he looks already like a solid addition. 

 

O'Cyrus Torrence - And then to the second round pick. The Bills starting offensive line struggled, more of that later, but the interior was less the problem and Torrence was the pick of the bunch. He is definitely ahead in the run game of where he is as a pass protector at this stage but he did enough to prevent his guy getting penetration again last night. Another positive display for the big man, and yet again he took all the first team snaps at right guard. I think we can call this competition over now. He is the starter. 

 

Kyle Allen - I was very (legitimately) critical of Allen last week so I give him props for his performance last night even though it was garbage time. He just looked more comfortable, his footwork was much cleaner and a couple of those outs really showed the zip his arm has that the competitor for the job, Matt Barkley, definitely doesn't. Barkley having three interception and a fumble on the night didn't hurt either. I don't like either option personally and I'd be scouring the cut lists for guys to bring in and back up Josh. But Allen is back in the competition. It might end up as a game 3 shoot out. 

 

Justin Shorter - The leading Bills receiver on the night was 5th round rookie Justin Shorter with 5 catches for 47 yards and a touchdown. There is one note of caution for Shorter fans in that he was playing among the back of the roster receivers in the 4th Quarter this week which is a drop from last week where he played exclusively with the 'twos'. That doesn't necessarily mean anything other than that the Bills wanted to make sure they got a good look at him and he responded well. At this stage I see him increasingly close to nailing down a roster spot. 

 

Greg Rousseau - Don't know that Rousseau is a guy who had anything to prove or anything at stake last night... but unlike many of the starters who played that way Rousseau still actually seemed to play with some energy and enthusiasm. His sack on a play action fake that he read well wasn't necessarily proof of anything in itself but I think he does look primed to take another step forward in year 3. 

 

 

Bad Night for...

 

Dion Dawkins - It is time to be concerned about our tackles. Dion was awful. He still looks overweight to me. He had penalties, he had whiffs in protection (including one that resulting on Josh's elbow - yes that elbow - getting hit) he was getting pushed about by the Steelers. The final third of last season Dion played his worst run of consecutive football probably since his sophomore season and it has always been a worry for me that a guy with his body type and weight fluctuation is unlikely to play at tackle to a high level into his 30s. Spencer Brown struggled again too, but that is almost baked in at this stage. Dion has been one of two consistent anchors (along with Morse) on an otherwise unstable line in the Beane era... if we are witnessing any sort of sustained decline in his levels the Bills have a real problem. 

 

Middle Linebackers - If the Bills are not panicking, as some here insisted they were not this week, then they bleeding well should be. The long touchdown run saw both linebackers (Milano as well as Dodson) completely washed by the Steelers offensive line. And Dodson was so consistently out of position that he was benched for the final series of starters and the Bills went back to the guy they didn't even have in the competition at Fisher in AJ Klein come out with the first time. He was little better and struggled, as we know he does, in space. I don't know when Terrell Bernard is expected back but it feels a bit of a risk to me throw him in week 1 as the starter with no pre-season when we have no idea what he will be. People are now rationalising in their own minds that we might go to a full scale dime defense and play Rapp at linebacker a chunk of the time. I don't know. But man this is a concern. I think even getting to "not a liability" status feels tricky right now.  

 

Damar Hamlin - It was a great night for Damar back in the state where he played his college ball, selected as an honorary captain with fellow Pit alum Dane Jackson. And then the game started. The partially blocked punt was Hamlin whiffing on his block (in Reggie Gilliam's normal wing spot btw for all the "cut Gilliam anyone can play special teams" guys) and he had a 15 yard low block penalty. He far from the only defensive player you could have picked out but his additional failure on special teams finds him a spot on the list. 

 

Poona Ford - Think we all presumed Poona Ford was a lock for the roster but he wasn't great week 1 and he was even worse last night. Not sure on Jordan Phillips's status so maybe for now he is safe, but honestly, I am not sure Ford has justified a spot ahead of someone line Eli Ankou based on what we have seen on the field. It's $1.5m dead cap but a $750k saving to release him and if there is going to be a "didn't see that coming" cut in a week or so then Poona Ford could be one of the guys getting the bird. 

 

Special Teams - It wasn't a good night for special teams all the way around. Two good returns allowed to Pittsburgh, a partially blocked punt, very little by the way of our own return game. Messy. I will give Matthew Smiley some slack in the sense that it IS hard to get STs clicking in pre-season when you are cycling guys in and out to meet whatever snap thresholds have been set and the Bills had some sticky ST moments last pre-season too but were a really good unit once the regular season came around. This isn't one I'm majorly concerned about at this stage, some of the breakdowns were not their core guys, but it bears watching when we hit the regular season. 

 

 

As ever guys.... thought, comments, opinions and questions welcome! 1 more game to go. 

 

 

 

Thank you for your justified review.

Let us see how Bills recover from some of these glaring concerns.

Worry for me? Some of these were quite predictable.

 Such as LB and RT
Why Bills did not pursue , at the very least , a solid stop gap at MLB mystifies the mind lol
And to depend on Spencer Brown seemed high risk on a good day
Is Anthony Barr still out there ? Do McBeanes know something we dont about both these positions ?

 

Thank you Gunner for the clear eyed temperament 🙂

[3rdand12]

6 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

Allen needed 3.50 seconds to be more accurate.

 

The criticism of Dawkins play in the game is accurate............but people are really throwing themselves about Spencer Brown and he wasn't bad.

 

It's second down and 20 something..........a good pass rushing defense isn't giving you 3+ seconds to throw there.

 

Also, the 3rd down where Allen rolled right allowing a well blocked TJ Watt to get a pressure on Brown's side was entirely on Allen.

 

Allen has to step up in the pocket and get that ball out.

 

As I mentioned elsewhere too...........that play Gabe Davis made is actually a good example of why he's not a good enough WR opposite Diggs..........Gabe needs 3+ seconds to get open.......that's too much time needed for your second option to come free if you expect to execute methodically and deconstruct a defense.

Dorsey

[GoBills808]

33 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Just saw this clip from the endzone angle which shows exactly why Josh tried to run away:

 

TJ Watt beats Brown on the spin move and appears to be coming right at Josh with a full head of steam. It's at that moment that Josh decided to escape.

 

What Josh didn't expect, and what he will learn, is that Torrence is already WAY ahead of most rookie offensive linemen and made a great cerebral play coming off his double block and helping Brown trap Watt. This is honestly super impressive from Torrence from a physical and a mental standpoint. Last year the likes of Bates and Saffold wouldn't have made this play.

 

If Allen can trust his IOL to make plays like this on the regular he will stand in the pocket and deliver.

 

also just looking at timing

 

 

this is the top of his drop

 

DB w outside leverage on Shakir (might be Isabella not sure) means he still has eyes in backfield on Allen

so Diggs effectively bracketed

 

then Brown beaten inside by Watt so gets Allen off his spot (great play by rookie w slide help)

 

Dawkins man is past him so needs to avoid which takes the checkdown to Cook away

 

not much here to complain about imo, Allen and esp Torrence did themselves proud

Edited August 21, 2023 by GoBills808

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

6 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

As I mentioned elsewhere too...........that play Gabe Davis made is actually a good example of why he's not a good enough WR opposite Diggs..........Gabe needs 3+ seconds to get open.......that's too much time needed for your second option to come free if you expect to execute methodically and deconstruct a defense.

might not be this year (although if preseason is any indication maybe it will be this year) but by next year Kincaid and Diggs should be the clear #1 and #2 and Davis will be the third or fourth option which I think is a great role for him.

[NeverOutNick]

One thing I will say, is that after watching hard knocks at least our offensive line isn’t as bad as the Jets are. We definitely need some answers at tackle now and in the future though 

[Doc]

12 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

might not be this year (although if preseason is any indication maybe it will be this year) but by next year Kincaid and Diggs should be the clear #1 and #2 and Davis will be the third or fourth option which I think is a great role for him.

 

Davis will likely be gone next year.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

also just looking at timing

 

 

this is the top of his drop

 

DB w outside leverage on Shakir (might be Isabella not sure) means he still has eyes in backfield on Allen

so Diggs effectively bracketed

 

then Brown beaten inside by Watt so gets Allen off his spot (great play by rookie w slide help)

 

Dawkins man is past him so needs to avoid which takes the checkdown to Cook away

 

not much here to complain about imo, Allen and esp Torrence did themselves proud

 

 

While I understand the criticism we judge the pass pro at a different standard than most teams because our QB holds the ball longer than anyone.

 

Most teams have to get the ball out when receivers aren't yet open and trust their playmakers.

 

But that's who Josh Allen is at this point..........which is why so many of us were quite adamant about the need to add options in the passing game that Allen would trust to get open or at least not have to see college-open in order to throw it to them.

 

I know you were a fan of the idea of adding Hopkins because of that..........but if Kincaid doesn't fill that role it may be another season of Allen getting further ingrained in the bad habit of holding the ball until the receiver comes open and Josh evoking memories of Rob Johnson evacuating "NFL clean" pockets hoping to buy time for Gabe Davis.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by BADOLBILZ

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Have to wonder if this was an effort thing because it’s preseason sort of deal or just outplayed by better talent. 

 

 

It was chaos, that's for sure.     Daquon goes to the outside shoulder of his blocker.........Oliver to the outside of his blocker.............and nothing in front of Pickett but a wide open view of the field and 10-15 yards of real estate to scramble left in front of him.    I understand that they aren't game planning but........maybe a little communication is still in order?    There was another play where Oliver went wide and wiped out Rousseau like he thought they had a stunt planned and Rousseau didn't know it?   If they were trying to look unprepared they succeeded.

[CincyBillsFan]

11 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

I know you were a fan of the idea of adding Hopkins because of that..........but if Kincaid doesn't fill that role it may be another season of Allen getting further ingrained in the bad habit of holding the ball until the receiver comes open and Josh evoking memories of Rob Johnson evacuating "NFL clean" pockets hoping to buy time for Gabe Davis.

 

Judas Priest this is over the top - comparing Allen to Rob Johnson.  Really?

 

 

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

5 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Judas Priest this is over the top - comparing Allen to Rob Johnson.  Really?

 

 

 

 

 

 

No just in regard to holding the ball too long and trying to extend plays too often...........with a bad OL being the excuse.

 

But people forget though that Rob Johnson wasn't unproductive when the Bills had a good team..........he averaged a whopping 8.5 yards per pass attempt and had a passer rating close to 110 over the 1998-1999 seasons.    He was a big play machine and numbers were elite when he was actually on the field and not concussed or otherwise injured for those teams.

 

For reference, Josh Allen averaged 7.6 yards per attempt with a 96 passer rating last season while Mahomes averaged 8.1 with a 109 last season.

  

[GoBills808]

18 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

While I understand the criticism we judge the pass pro at a different standard than most teams because our QB holds the ball longer than anyone.

 

Most teams have to get the ball out when receivers aren't yet open and trust their playmakers.

 

But that's who Josh Allen is at this point..........which is why so many of us were quite adamant about the need to add options in the passing game that Allen would trust to get open or at least not have to see college-open in order to throw it to them.

 

I know you were a fan of the idea of adding Hopkins because of that..........but if Kincaid doesn't fill that role it may be another season of Allen getting further ingrained in the bad habit of holding the ball until the receiver comes open and Josh evoking memories of Rob Johnson evacuating "NFL clean" pockets hoping to buy time for Gabe Davis.

 

 

 

 

granted I think this is one play in isolation but the read does seem to be Diggs and I don't think Allen wants to go there and bring the DB into the play, not if he's serious as he says about limiting turnovers

 

I really believe the reasons we don't see more 'on schedule' stuff lately in order of importance are 1-personnel specifically wideout (which is why you are correct I was in favor of Hopkins) 2-he has lost faith behind the line which manifests in bad lower body/comp% issues 3- yes he has a tendency to muddy up progressions and rely too heavily on his escapability but I think the criticism that he isn't capable of processing what's going on back there fast enough is way overblown

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

granted I think this is one play in isolation but the read does seem to be Diggs and I don't think Allen wants to go there and bring the DB into the play, not if he's serious as he says about limiting turnovers

 

I really believe the reasons we don't see more 'on schedule' stuff lately in order of importance are 1-personnel specifically wideout (which is why you are correct I was in favor of Hopkins) 2-he has lost faith behind the line which manifests in bad lower body/comp% issues 3- yes he has a tendency to muddy up progressions and rely too heavily on his escapability but I think the criticism that he isn't capable of processing what's going on back there fast enough is way overblown

 

 

 

 

Whether he's capable or not isn't the concern at this point.........we haven't gotten to the point where we are wondering if he's broken or not adaptive or gotten exposed or whatever..........he's just been putting a lot of "wtf" moments on tape where Diggs in particular is wide open and Allen seems to not be seeing that part of the field or anticipating at an elite QB level.   If he knows what that route is he has to trust Diggs to run a great route and put that ball where only he can get it.    It wasn't a slant or something it was an out route........unless he leaves it to the insider it's not getting picked.

[GoBills808]

20 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Whether he's capable or not isn't the concern at this point.........we haven't gotten to the point where we are wondering if he's broken or not adaptive or gotten exposed or whatever..........he's just been putting a lot of "wtf" moments on tape where Diggs in particular is wide open and Allen seems to not be seeing that part of the field or anticipating at an elite QB level.   If he knows what that route is he has to trust Diggs to run a great route and put that ball where only he can get it.    It wasn't a slant or something it was an out route........unless he leaves it to the insider it's not getting picked.

😂😂Agree to disagree on wide open there, diggs is bracketed imo

 

DB can sift thru there and make a play on ball

 

I mean yes he can probably rip it in there but maybe he's supposed to come off that look, it's not like he has an issue throwing to Diggs  lol

 

 

[Sierra Foothills]

I'm as concerned about the OT situation as anyone is. That said most fans have a tendency to overreact (i.e. - Barkley is better than Kyle Allen) so there's certainly a chance that the OT play will round into form by opening day and that we're overreacting in the moment..

 

As for the  MLB situation I'm still not that concerned because I think they'll either scheme an adequate answer or maybe come up with a personnel solution. I do feel like Taylor Rapp or Dorian Williams will somehow be a part of the answer.

 

What I'm actually very concerned about right now is how poorly the Bills interior D-linemen looked against Pittsburgh. DaQuan played well last year but he seemed to have a poor outing on Saturday. Ed Oliver... well he's Ed Oliver... a player with clear strengths and weaknesses. Settle played through some injuries last year and the jury is out on him. Jordan Phillips is recovering from injury. When he's healthy he's an asset but will he become more dependable as he gets older? And is it possible that Poona Ford is a declining player? 

 

Their play against the Steelers was disheartening and if the interior D-line can't play at an above average level, it won't matter much who's playing MLB for the Bills.

 

I also wonder how well the D-line is coached. It seems like the interior guys often lose containment in making vain attempta at applying pressure and this habit of not being in front of the QB opens passing lanes. If they're not going to apply pressure then they should settle for keeping the QB in the pocket and keeping their hands in the passing lanes. Pickett looked like he was doing 7 on 7 drills. His throw to the TE to beat Milano was made easy by the failure of the D-line.

 

 

[transplantbillsfan]

Wait... is Pooona Ford #98????

 

Are you sure you meant to say he had a bad night?

[BigAl2526]

I agree on Dawkins.  He looked fat an out of shape in the spring.  It makes me wonder if he takes off season conditioning as seriously as he should.

[BADOLBILZ]

21 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Just saw this clip from the endzone angle which shows exactly why Josh tried to run away:

 

TJ Watt beats Brown on the spin move and appears to be coming right at Josh with a full head of steam. It's at that moment that Josh decided to escape.

 

What Josh didn't expect, and what he will learn, is that Torrence is already WAY ahead of most rookie offensive linemen and made a great cerebral play coming off his double block and helping Brown trap Watt. This is honestly super impressive from Torrence from a physical and a mental standpoint. Last year the likes of Bates and Saffold wouldn't have made this play.

 

If Allen can trust his IOL to make plays like this on the regular he will stand in the pocket and deliver.

 

 

Still gotta' step up in that pocket if you are an NFL QB.   He has 5+ yards of space to step up with nobody in front and get the ball out.   Diggs was running a short route and just needed a split second to get wide open.   It's pre-season.......Allen doesn't need practice scrambling right.      

[dave mcbride]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Still gotta' step up in that pocket if you are an NFL QB.   He has 5+ yards of space to step up with nobody in front and get the ball out.   Diggs was running a short route and just needed a split second to get wide open.   It's pre-season.......Allen doesn't need practice scrambling right.      

Hey, Josh needs his street ball practice reps too!