Good Night / Bad Night - Pre-season game 2

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

41 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Well that was a mess. The worst pre-season outing for many a year, probably the worst under this regime who have generally had very strong pre-seasons. Not a huge number of positives let's have a go at picking the bones out of it...

 

Good Night for...

 

Dalton Kincaid - Let's start with the first round pick. 3 receptions for 45 yards, but it wasn't just the numbers it was how he did it. The two great traits on his college tape were his smooth route running and excellent soft hands. They were both on display last night as, operating mainly out of the slot, he tested the middle of the Steelers defense. The potential for this guy to have an impact as a rookie is definitely there. He still has some work to do as a blocker, we know that, but as long as Knox is back in the lineup one would presume he will be asked to do that fleetingly. Good to see him get some chemistry with Josh Allen and he looks already like a solid addition. 

 

O'Cyrus Torrence - And then to the second round pick. The Bills starting offensive line struggled, more of that later, but the interior was less the problem and Torrence was the pick of the bunch. He is definitely ahead in the run game of where he is as a pass protector at this stage but he did enough to prevent his guy getting penetration again last night. Another positive display for the big man, and yet again he took all the first team snaps at right guard. I think we can call this competition over now. He is the starter. 

 

Kyle Allen - I was very (legitimately) critical of Allen last week so I give him props for his performance last night even though it was garbage time. He just looked more comfortable, his footwork was much cleaner and a couple of those outs really showed the zip his arm has that the competitor for the job, Matt Barkley, definitely doesn't. Barkley having three interception and a fumble on the night didn't hurt either. I don't like either option personally and I'd be scouring the cut lists for guys to bring in and back up Josh. But Allen is back in the competition. It might end up as a game 3 shoot out. 

 

Justin Shorter - The leading Bills receiver on the night was 5th round rookie Justin Shorter with 5 catches for 47 yards and a touchdown. There is one note of caution for Shorter fans in that he was playing among the back of the roster receivers in the 4th Quarter this week which is a drop from last week where he played exclusively with the 'twos'. That doesn't necessarily mean anything other than that the Bills wanted to make sure they got a good look at him and he responded well. At this stage I see him increasingly close to nailing down a roster spot. 

 

Greg Rousseau - Don't know that Rousseau is a guy who had anything to prove or anything at stake last night... but unlike many of the starters who played that way Rousseau still actually seemed to play with some energy and enthusiasm. His sack on a play action fake that he read well wasn't necessarily proof of anything in itself but I think he does look primed to take another step forward in year 3. 

 

 

Bad Night for...

 

Dion Dawkins - It is time to be concerned about our tackles. Dion was awful. He still looks overweight to me. He had penalties, he had whiffs in protection (including one that resulting on Josh's elbow - yes that elbow - getting hit) he was getting pushed about by the Steelers. The final third of last season Dion played his worst run of consecutive football probably since his sophomore season and it has always been a worry for me that a guy with his body type and weight fluctuation is unlikely to play at tackle to a high level into his 30s. Spencer Brown struggled again too, but that is almost baked in at this stage. Dion has been one of two consistent anchors (along with Morse) on an otherwise unstable line in the Beane era... if we are witnessing any sort of sustained decline in his levels the Bills have a real problem. 

 

Middle Linebackers - If the Bills are not panicking, as some here insisted they were not this week, then they bleeding well should be. The long touchdown run saw both linebackers (Milano as well as Dodson) completely washed by the Steelers offensive line. And Dodson was so consistently out of position that he was benched for the final series of starters and the Bills went back to the guy they didn't even have in the competition at Fisher in AJ Klein come out with the first time. He was little better and struggled, as we know he does, in space. I don't know when Terrell Bernard is expected back but it feels a bit of a risk to me throw him in week 1 as the starter with no pre-season when we have no idea what he will be. People are now rationalising in their own minds that we might go to a full scale dime defense and play Rapp at linebacker a chunk of the time. I don't know. But man this is a concern. I think even getting to "not a liability" status feels tricky right now.  

 

Damar Hamlin - It was a great night for Damar back in the state where he played his college ball, selected as an honorary captain with fellow Pit alum Dane Jackson. And then the game started. The partially blocked punt was Hamlin whiffing on his block (in Reggie Gilliam's normal wing spot btw for all the "cut Gilliam anyone can play special teams" guys) and he had a 15 yard low block penalty. He far from the only defensive player you could have picked out but his additional failure on special teams finds him a spot on the list. 

 

Poona Ford - Think we all presumed Poona Ford was a lock for the roster but he wasn't great week 1 and he was even worse last night. Not sure on Jordan Phillips's status so maybe for now he is safe, but honestly, I am not sure Ford has justified a spot ahead of someone line Eli Ankou based on what we have seen on the field. It's $1.5m dead cap but a $750k saving to release him and if there is going to be a "didn't see that coming" cut in a week or so then Poona Ford could be one of the guys getting the bird. 

 

Special Teams - It wasn't a good night for special teams all the way around. Two good returns allowed to Pittsburgh, a partially blocked punt, very little by the way of our own return game. Messy. I will give Matthew Smiley some slack in the sense that it IS hard to get STs clicking in pre-season when you are cycling guys in and out to meet whatever snap thresholds have been set and the Bills had some sticky ST moments last pre-season too but were a really good unit once the regular season came around. This isn't one I'm majorly concerned about at this stage, some of the breakdowns were not their core guys, but it bears watching when we hit the regular season. 

 

 

As ever guys.... thought, comments, opinions and questions welcome! 1 more game to go. 

 

 

 

sounds right to me.
 

Adding overall it was another good night for the wr position group. They have some big guys that have catch radius…. Id love to see them go that way over tiny quick guys that never seem to work out the way you’d like, I have little optimism about harty, Isabella 

 

shorter and sherfield, made difficult catches in traffic. 

[Norcalbillsfan]

Great point about Dawkins, I'm not sure why everyone thinks it's all spencer brown. Dawkins did not look good end of last season and he looked horrible against the steelers. 

 

I watched the game a 2nd time. And brown had some bone head moments but he has a motor and he's such an athlete he makes blocks across the feild that Dawkins could never dream of. Example the block in the back call on brown was a little ticky tacky call but Brown was out there being physical. Dawkins was not at all tonight, he looked slow and straight up out of shape. Getting put on his heals by rookie linebackers. 

 

I'm actually more concerned about Dawkins much more than Brown.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, No_Matter_What said:

Gunner, I wrote it in another thread - I think MLB is much less concern than people make it. Edmunds will be missed, but it is just one guy (one position) and it won't impact the defense that much. As long as offense produces on the same level as last year, we'll be fine. So if anything, we should be worried about Oline play.

 

Yea I just don't agree. I would agree if I thought they were getting mediocre MLB play. At the moment they are not even getting that. They are getting liability MLB play. You probably have to go back to Adolphus Washington on the Dline in 2017 to find a guy who is starting who is at that liablity level. 

 

If they find their way to mediocre I agree they will work their way around it. And obviously I agree on the oline. Particularly the tackles.

[MWK]

15 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Gotta' add Ed Oliver to the bad night list.  

 

Everything Ed did was trash.   Seumalo threw him around like he was a practice squad hopeful and it didn't get much better for him on the other side.

 

Tim Settle was atrocious too.   He tackled Poona Ford on the long TD run by allowing himself to get collapsed.

 

Daquon sucked too.

 

The DT's were the worst of the worst units on the field for the Bills.

 

Good thing we have the “brilliant” Eric Washington coaching them

[Simon Says]

32 minutes ago, Doc said:

Yeah Ford is looking like a cut.  And big mistake not playing Williams at MLB.

Williams is not proving he can play MIDDLE linebacker in this defense 

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Kincaid looks like the real deal out there running routes

 

If he can be a passable blocker he's immediately option#2 in the pass game

 

He doesn't need to be a passable blocker. He is going to play in the slot.

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think Josh was flushed on that first 3rd down. He bailed too early. I don't mind him being over cautious in pre-season (although he certainly wasn't on the mad scramble later) but if that is the regular season he has to stand in and make that throw IMO.

I just rewatched it.  You and @Ralonzo are correct.  He bailed early.  He could’ve stepped up to the left in between Dawkins and McGovern but he wouldn’t have been able to make the throw to Diggs or Harty on the right.  He would’ve been able to hit Davis in the scramble drill though.  
 

His reluctance to stay in the pocket hurt him in this case and in many others throughout his career…..but our OL play over the years is the reason bailing is his first instinct. 

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea I just don't agree. I would agree if I thought they were getting mediocre MLB play. At the moment they are not even getting that. They are getting liability MLB play. You probably have to go back to Adolphus Washington on the Dline in 2017 to find a guy who is starting who is at that liablity level. 

 

If they find their way to mediocre I agree they will work their way around it. And obviously I agree on the oline. Particularly the tackles.

Mmhmmmm.

 

and wait til that position is targeted 3rd down after 3rd down all season

[NewEra]

12 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Kincaid looks like the real deal out there running routes

 

If he can be a passable blocker he's immediately option#2 in the pass game

He’s the real deal regardless if he can block or not imo.  He can get open, catch and rac

[Rocky Landing]

Definitely a bad night for my liver.

[JerseyBills]

Thought Hamlin had a great night besides those 2 plays otherwise agree. Neal also looked good, played fast.

 

Where is Leonard Floyd??

[NoSaint]

35 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No, agreed. That bears watching too. We ask a lot of him so if he has lost a step that is a problem too. He didn't make the cut for bad night because one screw up wasn't nearly enough given the competition last night 😂

I mentioned it a bit back and I do wonder how losing tremaine may impact him.

 

perhaps absorbing more weight in the lower levels and middle as an aging guy could be a problem. More green space, more hits etc…

16 minutes ago, Norcalbillsfan said:

Great point about Dawkins, I'm not sure why everyone thinks it's all spencer brown. Dawkins did not look good end of last season and he looked horrible against the steelers. 

 

I watched the game a 2nd time. And brown had some bone head moments but he has a motor and he's such an athlete he makes blocks across the feild that Dawkins could never dream of. Example the block in the back call on brown was a little ticky tacky call but Brown was out there being physical. Dawkins was not at all tonight, he looked slow and straight up out of shape. Getting put on his heals by rookie linebackers. 

 

I'm actually more concerned about Dawkins much more than Brown.

there have been threads about concern about DD whenever there’s been a photo of him the last several months 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

 

Damar Hamlin - It was a great night for Damar back in the state where he played his college ball, selected as an honorary captain with fellow Pit alum Dane Jackson. And then the game started. The partially blocked punt was Hamlin whiffing on his block (in Reggie Gilliam's normal wing spot btw for all the "cut Gilliam anyone can play special teams" guys) and he had a 15 yard low block penalty. He far from the only defensive player you could have picked out but his additional failure on special teams finds him a spot on the list. 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Thought Hamlin had a great night besides those 2 plays otherwise agree. Neal also looked good, played fast.

 

Where is Leonard Floyd??

I thought Hamlin actually looked really good. He seemed to be so fluid and comfortable out there on defense. In very good position in coverage. Got his nose in there on several runs.

 

The low block penalty was possibly the dumbest call of the game. It seemed like he was just trying to get in there to tackle, and hit the blocker on his waist.  

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

Middle Linebackers - If the Bills are not panicking, as some here insisted they were not this week, then they bleeding well should be. The long touchdown run saw both linebackers (Milano as well as Dodson) completely washed by the Steelers offensive line. And Dodson was so consistently out of position that he was benched for the final series of starters and the Bills went back to the guy they didn't even have in the competition at Fisher in AJ Klein come out with the first time. He was little better and struggled, as we know he does, in space. I don't know when Terrell Bernard is expected back but it feels a bit of a risk to me throw him in week 1 as the starter with no pre-season when we have no idea what he will be. People are now rationalising in their own minds that we might go to a full scale dime defense and play Rapp at linebacker a chunk of the time. I don't know. But man this is a concern. I think even getting to "not a liability" status feels tricky right now.  

 

I genuinely do not understand how McBeane thought we were set at middle linebacker.

[GunnerBill]

13 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

 

I thought Hamlin actually looked really good. He seemed to be so fluid and comfortable out there on defense. In very good position in coverage. Got his nose in there on several runs.

 

The low block penalty was possibly the dumbest call of the game. It seemed like he was just trying to get in there to tackle, and hit the blocker on his waist.  

 

I thought Hamlin struggled generally. Agre on whoever said Neal played well though. He did.

[Einstein]

33 minutes ago, Norcalbillsfan said:

Great point about Dawkins, I'm not sure why everyone thinks it's all spencer brown. Dawkins did not look good end of last season and he looked horrible against the steelers. 

 

Agreed.

 

Brown got called for holding on the long Gabe Davis catch but holding could have easily been called on Dion too. They were both holding on the play. 

 

Pretty sad state of affairs when BOTH of your tackles are holding just to give the QB a couple seconds to throw.

 

[4merper4mer]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

Yeah Ford is looking like a cut.  And big mistake not playing Williams at MLB.

Williams is a pipsqueak.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

The Bills generally don’t have the offensive line/protection to hold up on those long developing pass plays. 

 

Yea and it is definitely on Dorsey and Josh to work more quick game. They have to. It is rule 101 when your protection is struggling. Get the ball out fast. 

[HappyDays]

Good night for Van Denmark. He played LT the entire 2nd half. I specifically watched him on every snap and I didn't see him lose a single rep. That's two weeks in a row that he looked solid at LT, albeit against 2nd and 3rd stringers.

 

Bad night for Elam. Somehow he has regressed even further. Last night was the worst performance I've seen from him. Way too grabby and looked lost in coverage a couple times. Maybe the all-22 will show some favorable reps but what I saw on broadcast footage was bad.

 

The whole 2022 draft class is trending towards throwaway status. Hopefully Cook can salvage it a bit. Luckily the 2023 draft class is looking like a possible home run.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

Good night for Van Denmark. He played LT the entire 2nd half. I specifically watched him on every snap and I didn't see him lose a single rep. That's two weeks in a row that he looked solid at LT, albeit against 2nd and 3rd stringers.

 

Bad night for Elam. Somehow he has regressed even further. Last night was the worst performance I've seen from him. Way too grabby and looked lost in coverage a couple times. Maybe the all-22 will show some favorable reps but what I saw on broadcast footage was bad.

 

The whole 2022 draft class is trending towards throwaway status. Hopefully Cook can salvage it a bit. Luckily the 2023 draft class is looking like a possible home run.

 

Agree with all. I could have out VD and Mims in good night and Elam in bad night again but already had Torrence as a repeat from last week and wanted to mix up a bit. 

 

I think Van Demark should be on this roster. I am kinda leaning towards Mims should too.

[BADOLBILZ]

4 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Agreed.

 

Brown got called for holding on the long Gabe Davis catch but holding could have easily been called on Dion too. They were both holding on the play. 

 

Pretty sad state of affairs when BOTH of your tackles are holding just to give the QB a couple seconds to throw.

 

 

 

 

Allen needed 3.50 seconds to be more accurate.

 

The criticism of Dawkins play in the game is accurate............but people are really throwing themselves about Spencer Brown and he wasn't bad.

 

It's second down and 20 something..........a good pass rushing defense isn't giving you 3+ seconds to throw there.

 

Also, the 3rd down where Allen rolled right allowing a well blocked TJ Watt to get a pressure on Brown's side was entirely on Allen.

 

Allen has to step up in the pocket and get that ball out.

 

As I mentioned elsewhere too...........that play Gabe Davis made is actually a good example of why he's not a good enough WR opposite Diggs..........Gabe needs 3+ seconds to get open.......that's too much time needed for your second option to come free if you expect to execute methodically and deconstruct a defense.