Well that was an absolute crap fest - PostGame thread

[90sBills]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

like who?

For starters Dawkins and Brown. Getting the ball out quickly will make the tackles look a lot better. 

[GoBills808]

Just now, 90sBills said:

For starters Dawkins and Brown. Getting the ball out quickly will make the tackles look a lot better. 

ok this would be for you and @Mikie2timesthen

 

 

this is the top of his drop on the play that he said proves Allen 'can't read defenses'...he wants the ball to go to Diggs who is 'only covered by an LB'...like do you really think Josh Allen wouldn't recognize Diggs matched up in man v an LB? He tucks this because the DB over Shakir is playing outside leverage in hi/lo bracket reading QB here and he doesn't want to throw into that

 

as for the tackles lol Dawkins is already beat here which when you roll this you see negates the Cook checkdown because he has to dodge Highsmith, Brown gets beat as well which is why Allen initially drifts but the rookie executes nice slide to help

[90sBills]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

ok this would be for you and @Mikie2timesthen

 

 

this is the top of his drop on the play that he said proves Allen 'can't read defenses'...he wants the ball to go to Diggs who is 'only covered by an LB'...like do you really think Josh Allen wouldn't recognize Diggs matched up in man v an LB? He tucks this because the DB over Shakir is playing outside leverage in hi/lo bracket reading QB here and he doesn't want to throw into that

 

as for the tackles lol Dawkins is already beat here which when you roll this you see negates the Cook checkdown because he has to dodge Highsmith, Brown gets beat as well which is why Allen initially drifts but the rookie executes nice slide to help

I’m not sure how one snapshot will prove anything giving that lackluster performance by the 1st team overall. Hopefully when it’s real in a couple of weeks they’d be a lot sharper.

[BuffaloBaumer]

I think the Jets game will be our worst of the season. NJ will come out flying, the crowd will be electric, and that dline could absolutely swallow our oline. Having said that, I am not worried about the remainder of the season but if Buffalo does lay an egg week 1, social media will be unbearable until we get week 2 over with. 

[Jerome007]

6 minutes ago, BuffaloBaumer said:

I think the Jets game will be our worst of the season. NJ will come out flying, the crowd will be electric, and that dline could absolutely swallow our oline. Having said that, I am not worried about the remainder of the season but if Buffalo does lay an egg week 1, social media will be unbearable until we get week 2 over with. 

Expect that after any lackluster game. Last year, before the Bengals fiasco, the Bills only lost 3 games, all by a small margin too, no blowouts at all. Yet it seemed all doom and gloom at times here ha  ha. But it was true there were many worrying signs. Though there is a difference and middle ground between avoiding issues with rose colored glasses, and screaming "the sky is falling" every second.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Jerome007

[Einstein]

11 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

I’m not sure how one snapshot will prove anything giving that lackluster performance by the 1st team overall. 

 

It has nothing to do with performance.

 

It is the playcall.

 

3rd and 4 wasn't Frazier. It was McDermott.

[newcam2012]

4 hours ago, 90sBills said:

I don’t think it’s arguable at all that’s he’s a top 3 qb in this league. Of course he can read defenses. He’s an elite qb. Can he improve on that ability? Absolutely! If he’s able to improve on knowing how defenses are playing him he would be more decisive on where to go with the ball. This will lead to quicker releases to help out the Oline. All of a sudden the Oline wouldn’t seem as bad because the ball is out quicker. Also knowing and taking what defenses give him will make his receivers better.

 

What you’re advocating in your post is give Allen superior teammates in all positions for him to be successful. That’s not an elite qb. That’s a qb that needs his team to lift him up. Elite qbs elevate mediocre teammates and make them look good. There are offensive talents on this team. He needs to adjust his game to take advantage of them.

 

I have a lot of hope going into this season. Those couple of series put a little dent in my optimism. I thought him and the offense would come out a lot sharper than they did. Given what happened in the Cincy game and all offseason to ‘focus on football’ he came out looking really indecisive. 

Based on your description here of Allen he certainly doesn't sound elite. 

 

He hasn't made his receivers better, he isn't decisive enough with his throws, he doesn't hit his check downs, and he doesn't make the proper adjustments. 

 

Did I summarize accurately what you said? 

 

Boy, I'm more confused than ever...

3 hours ago, 90sBills said:

For starters Dawkins and Brown. Getting the ball out quickly will make the tackles look a lot better. 

That's not the Bills offense. Allen isn't running a west coast offense or a version of it. Allen is more than capable of competing short quick passes. He did it with Beasley quite well. 

 

Joe Burrow and the Bengals are a great example of what you are talking about. That's not the Bills offense. 

[Mikie2times]

16 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Oh boy... This is all wrong. He went through his progressions right to left and ripped it to Davis as soon as he came to him and saw that the safety on that side of the field was facing the other way and Davis had gotten past his man. If he had thrown that route with the "anticipation" you propose, he would have had to float it in there instead of firing a bullet and the safety would have easily broken up the play or possibly intercepted it.

 

I don't know when it became dogma that seeing a route develop before throwing the ball is a bad thing, but in reality a QB would ideally always want to see a route develop before throwing it so he has more information about what kind throw he should be making. There is a time for anticipation throws, but deep corner routes with a safety roaming that side of the field is not one of them. This is literally basic Madden type stuff.

 

I'm genuinely shocked that you would post an opinion like this so confidently. What is going on these past few pages? Josh double clutches? He doesn't see the field? His OL is secretly top tier? Of course he makes mistakes but some of you are really grasping for straws here and for the life of me I can't understand why.

 

EDIT: Here's the play in question:

 

 

 

He has the in route for 7 yards and is looking right at it. He comes off it, holds the ball until the last millisecond, then rips an incredible pass down the sidelines to Davis. If this play happens 10 times, he will get strip sacked on at least one. Sacked on several others. Throw incompletion on several others. Where if he just takes the in route he will complete it with no risk 9 out of 10 times. Perhaps 10 out of 10.  

 

3 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

ok this would be for you and @Mikie2timesthen

 

 

this is the top of his drop on the play that he said proves Allen 'can't read defenses'...he wants the ball to go to Diggs who is 'only covered by an LB'...like do you really think Josh Allen wouldn't recognize Diggs matched up in man v an LB? He tucks this because the DB over Shakir is playing outside leverage in hi/lo bracket reading QB here and he doesn't want to throw into that

 

as for the tackles lol Dawkins is already beat here which when you roll this you see negates the Cook checkdown because he has to dodge Highsmith, Brown gets beat as well which is why Allen initially drifts but the rookie executes nice slide to help

This would be a great call out except the corner doesn't have anybody behind him. So if jumps the out as you think they designed, Allen has six. Prior to Diggs even making his break the Steelers DB already has his hips turned as he would be beat if he doesn't. 

 

[GoBills808]

Just now, Mikie2times said:

 

He has the in route for 7 yards and is looking right at it. He comes off it, holds the ball until the last millisecond, then rips an incredible pass down the sidelines to Davis. If this play happens 10 times, he will get strip sacked on at least one. Sacked on several others. Throw incompletion on several others. Where if he just takes the in route he will complete it with no risk 9 out of 10 times. Perhaps 10 out of 10.  

 

This would be a great call out except the corner doesn't have anybody behind him. So if jumps the out as you think they designed, Allen has six. Prior to Diggs even making his break the Steelers DB already has his hips turned as he would be beat if he doesn't. 

 

Safety picks that up if you keep rolling

[90sBills]

3 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

Based on your description here of Allen he certainly doesn't sound elite. 

 

He hasn't made his receivers better, he isn't decisive enough with his throws, he doesn't hit his check downs, and he doesn't make the proper adjustments. 

 

Did I summarize accurately what you said? 

 

Boy, I'm more confused than ever...

That's not the Bills offense. Allen isn't running a west coast offense or a version of it. Allen is more than capable of competing short quick passes. He did it with Beasley quite well. 

 

Joe Burrow and the Bengals are a great example of what you are talking about. That's not the Bills offense. 

No, you did not. Your summary is filled with all the general criticisms Allen gets. You said that he is not above being criticized but when he gets criticized you’re there to defend him without any acknowledgment that the criticisms may be correct. 

 

I do believe he is an elite qb. He’s #2 in my eyes. But that doesn’t mean he’s never wrong. What I got from Saturday night was disappointment that he and the team were not sharp. With the way last season ended and how he said football was going to be his #1 focus you’d think he’d be more crisp with his execution in this first opportunity to showcase since that playoff game. Move the ball efficiently. Take what defenses are given you. So yes it was a very disappointing performance. Hopefully they beat the Jets and all will be well again.

 

What’s there to be confused about? Defenses are adjusting to his playing style. Taking away the deep part of the field. Start taking the underneath stuffs. You said ‘It’s not the Bills offense’ followed by ‘Allen is more than capable of completing short passes’. Yes I agreed he is more than capable. Then do it. What is this crap about it not being their offense. The league is all about making adjustments to your opponent. So you’re saying they can’t do quick passes to help out their Oline as well as counter high safety looks because ‘that’s not their offense’? So you think only West Coast offenses have short passes?

[newcam2012]

8 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

No, you did not. Your summary is filled with all the general criticisms Allen gets. You said that he is not above being criticized but when he gets criticized you’re there to defend him without any acknowledgment that the criticisms may be correct. 

 

I do believe he is an elite qb. He’s #2 in my eyes. But that doesn’t mean he’s never wrong. What I got from Saturday night was disappointment that he and the team were not sharp. With the way last season ended and how he said football was going to be his #1 focus you’d think he’d be more crisp with his execution in this first opportunity to showcase since that playoff game. Move the ball efficiently. Take what defenses are given you. So yes it was a very disappointing performance. Hopefully they beat the Jets and all will be well again.

 

What’s there to be confused about? Defenses are adjusting to his playing style. Taking away the deep part of the field. Start taking the underneath stuffs. You said ‘It’s not the Bills offense’ followed by ‘Allen is more than capable of completing short passes’. Yes I agreed he is more than capable. Then do it. What is this crap about it not being their offense. The league is all about making adjustments to your opponent. So you’re saying they can’t do quick passes to help out their Oline as well as counter high safety looks because ‘that’s not their offense’? So you think only West Coast offenses have short passes?

I'm saying the Bills offense is built and predicated on longer passing plays; which takes longer to develop. I'm not a stat guy, but I'm willing to say that Allen Is near the top of average yards per pass attempt. 

 

It's been a consistent and constant theme that the Bills really don't utilize the screen game and Allen is reluctant to take the check downs. Last year, they didn't have a quality slot guy for quick passes.  Rather, Allen likes to scramble and look for the big plays down field. Often, he's successful and that's one asset that makes him special. Sure at times, it leads to turnovers or a less percentage completed passes. That's the way I see it. 

 

There's always been discussion about reigning in Allen. How much is too much or not enough? How much blame or credit goes to Allen and or the coaching staff? 

 

One play that immediately comes to mind is the Miami game. It was a fourth down play and Allen scrambled and scrambled towards the out of bounds sideline. At the last moment, he jumped and threw an amazing ball for a TD. Vintage Josh Allen! We all remember that.

 

Another game that jumps off the page is the 13 sec game. Allen was throwing darts down field with ease. It was orgasmic! 

 

In short, Allen is a gun slighter sort of speak. Think Brett Farve if you will. He will almost always look downfield first. Yes, almost to a fault sometimes instead of taking the underneath stuff. That's the trade off and the dilemma Dorsey and Daball faced. There is no easy answer or solution. 

 

My biggest criticism of Allen is his turnovers. Turnovers can really be game changers. 

 

In short, I don't believe the Bills game plan advocates for lots of underneath throws. Couple that with Allen being more apt to make longer down the field passes. 

 

However, I do remember the Bills coming out and being effective vs the Rams. Short quick passes that opened up the deep throws. I believe that was the case the following game vs Tenn. I'm not so sure Allen had confidence in his WRs last year. Cook was also learning on the job. 

 

Perhaps, this year they will get back to utilizing the short game. They certainly didn't do it vs Miami or Cincinnati in the playoffs. 

 

 

 

[90sBills]

1 hour ago, newcam2012 said:

I'm saying the Bills offense is built and predicated on longer passing plays; which takes longer to develop. I'm not a stat guy, but I'm willing to say that Allen Is near the top of average yards per pass attempt. 

 

It's been a consistent and constant theme that the Bills really don't utilize the screen game and Allen is reluctant to take the check downs. Last year, they didn't have a quality slot guy for quick passes.  Rather, Allen likes to scramble and look for the big plays down field. Often, he's successful and that's one asset that makes him special. Sure at times, it leads to turnovers or a less percentage completed passes. That's the way I see it. 

 

There's always been discussion about reigning in Allen. How much is too much or not enough? How much blame or credit goes to Allen and or the coaching staff? 

 

One play that immediately comes to mind is the Miami game. It was a fourth down play and Allen scrambled and scrambled towards the out of bounds sideline. At the last moment, he jumped and threw an amazing ball for a TD. Vintage Josh Allen! We all remember that.

 

Another game that jumps off the page is the 13 sec game. Allen was throwing darts down field with ease. It was orgasmic! 

 

In short, Allen is a gun slighter sort of speak. Think Brett Farve if you will. He will almost always look downfield first. Yes, almost to a fault sometimes instead of taking the underneath stuff. That's the trade off and the dilemma Dorsey and Daball faced. There is no easy answer or solution. 

 

My biggest criticism of Allen is his turnovers. Turnovers can really be game changers. 

 

In short, I don't believe the Bills game plan advocates for lots of underneath throws. Couple that with Allen being more apt to make longer down the field passes. 

 

However, I do remember the Bills coming out and being effective vs the Rams. Short quick passes that opened up the deep throws. I believe that was the case the following game vs Tenn. I'm not so sure Allen had confidence in his WRs last year. Cook was also learning on the job. 

 

Perhaps, this year they will get back to utilizing the short game. They certainly didn't do it vs Miami or Cincinnati in the playoffs. 

 

 

 

No doubt Allen can make amazing plays. As fans we love those! I don’t want him to lose that mentality. Just be more selective. I also hear ya on the Bills offensive philosophy. But Dorsey and Allen have to adjust if the Bills are to go far. Hopefully this year like you said.

[HappyDays]

7 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

He has the in route for 7 yards and is looking right at it. He comes off it, holds the ball until the last millisecond, then rips an incredible pass down the sidelines to Davis. If this play happens 10 times, he will get strip sacked on at least one. Sacked on several others. Throw incompletion on several others. Where if he just takes the in route he will complete it with no risk 9 out of 10 times. Perhaps 10 out of 10.  

 

Yeah taking the 7 yard in route on 2nd and 24 will work every time because the defense gives it up for free. You really blew my mind with that one.

 

By your logic Allen should literally never stand in the pocket and take deep shots. Every long developing play has the potential to become a sack. That is why 2nd and 24 is not easy to get out of... I think our offense should feature more quick game than it did last year, and I believe it will, but miss me with the "1 out of 10 times this perfectly executed deep route and throw will be a strip sack." What kind of point do you think you're making here?

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by HappyDays

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, 90sBills said:

With the way last season ended and how he said football was going to be his #1 focus you’d think he’d be more crisp with his execution in this first opportunity to showcase since that playoff game. Move the ball efficiently. Take what defenses are given you.

 

I didn't see the problem as Allen not taking what the Steelers defense gave him. He took several quick open throws. The issue to me was that he looked like he was terrified to take a single hit, presumably because the coaches drilled that into his head. I know Allen has a tendency to get a little wild at a hint of pressure but some of his reps on Saturday were way beyond what he looks like in real games. I choose to believe that it is because his priority #1 was to avoid taking hits in a meaningless preseason game.

 

In general the further away I get from the game the better I feel about the offense. Brown and Dawkins were not as bad as I thought on my first watch, Morris was hopeless trying to play Knox's role as the blocking TE, Allen as I mentioned above was more concerned with avoiding contact than playing the position. I expect the offense to still be a top 3 scoring offense as it has been every year since 2020. Hopefully it will be less boom or bust than it was last year. Adding Kincaid and Harty and bumping Cook up to the #1 RB is hopefully a sign that the team wants the offense to be more efficient/on schedule.

 

The defense on the other hand I am genuinely concerned about. Poyer and Hyde may have lost a step, I am not fully confident Tre White is his old self again and I'm even less confident in whoever will be playing across from him, MLB currently may not have even a replacement level player to perform the job, the pass rush looked as ineffective as it did to close out 2022. I worry that until Von Miller is fully recovered we will have zero true game changing difference makers on that side of the ball. Even the Chiefs who have had mediocre defensive talent throughout the Mahomes era at least had Chris Jones giving OCs nightmares and capable of taking over games. Who is that guy on our defense that opponents have to game plan around? When is the last time a Super Bowl participant didn't have a single guy like that on defense? It's a troubling thought.

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by HappyDays

[JoPoy88]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I didn't see the problem as Allen not taking what the Steelers defense gave him. He took several quick open throws. The issue to me was that he looked like he was terrified to take a single hit, presumably because the coaches drilled that into his head. I know Allen has a tendency to get a little wild at a hint of pressure but some of his reps on Saturday were way beyond what he looks like in real games. I choose to believe that it is because his priority #1 was to avoid taking hits in a meaningless preseason game.

 

In general the further away I get from the game the better I feel about the offense. Brown and Dawkins were not as bad as I thought on my first watch, Morris was hopeless trying to play Knox's role as the blocking TE, Allen as I mentioned above was more concerned with avoiding contact than playing the position. I expect the offense to still be a top 3 scoring offense as it has been every year since 2020. Hopefully it will be less boom or bust than it was last year. Adding Kincaid and Harty and bumping Cook up to the #1 RB is hopefully a sign that the team wants the offense to be more efficient.

 

The defense on the other hand I am genuinely concerned about. Poyer and Hyde may have lost a step, MLB currently may not have even a replacement level player to perform the job, the pass rush looked as ineffective as it did to close out 2022. I worry that until Von Miller is fully recovered we will have zero true game changing difference makers on that side of the ball. Even the Chiefs who have had mediocre defensive talent throughout the Mahomes era at least had Chris Jones giving OCs nightmares and capable of taking over games. Who is that guy on our defense that opponents have to game plan around? When is the last time a Super Bowl participant didn't have a single guy like that on defense? It's a troubling thought.

Agree and I think it’s a bit difficult to judge Allen’s performance what with penalties sabotaging drives all over the place on Saturday.

[Mikie2times]

18 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah taking the 7 yard in route on 2nd and 24 will work every time because the defense gives it up for free. You really blew my mind with that one.

 

By your logic Allen should literally never stand in the pocket and take deep shots. Every long developing play has the potential to become a sack. That is why 2nd and 24 is not easy to get out of... I think our offense should feature more quick game than it did last year, and I believe it will, but miss me with the "1 out of 10 times this perfectly executed deep route and throw will be a strip sack." What kind of point do you think you're making here?

 

I think my point is pretty clear. If Allen can in fact read defenses, he chooses to not take anything underneath. Everything, regardless of down, is waiting for something longer to open up. In the mean time, he gets in 3rd in long as a result, gets sacked as a result, throws picks as a result. Yes, he makes Josh like, nobody else can make plays as a result, but I would just rather convert a damn first down and create some level of rhythm. As one poster pointed out in a thread awhile back, it's like watching a 3 point shooting team in basketball. It's nice when they go down. But they don't always go down. Josh is feast or famine with everything. 

 

Last year, the reason was the line sucked, the WR's can't get open, Josh has a hurt arm, and the OC doesn't call anything short. Literally a hysterical cocktail of bs. At the very least, is it all possible in the litany of excuses that Josh in fact contributed? 

 

Not one person took the path of Occam's razor and said, hey, maybe the QB is passing up his quick reads. In fact, maybe he doesn't even look for them. Then maybe, just maybe, if he passes on his quick reads he will get sacked more. Maybe fumble more. Is that happening? Great Scott! It is in fact happening. Despite watching him pass these options up over and over and over, I'm a J-Ass for simply pointing it out. 

 

I'm done posting about this. He's a great player. It is not worth laboring over this conversation another day. I hope I'm wrong and if I am, please bump this thread. It's not like I get my rocks off watching my favorite team and favorite player not do well. I hope to hell I'm wrong on all of it, Josh has an MVP season, and dunks on my face.   

[HappyDays]

6 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Everything, regardless of down, is waiting for something longer to open up. In the mean time, he gets in 3rd in long as a result

 

So the example you choose to die on a hill is a 2nd and 24? You realize if he takes the 7 yard in cut there it is now 3rd and 15 at best, AKA 3rd and long? And then on the next play he would have to stand a few seconds in the pocket to deliver a long strike?

 

Seems clear to me that you got stuck in the weeds trying to criticize a play that you have no business criticizing and now you're trying to BS your way out of it. If you want to make a point that Allen and the offense need to take easier throws sometimes, have at it. But you chose a bizarre example to make your point on.

[Warcodered]

22 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

I choose to believe that it is because his priority #1 was to avoid taking hits in a meaningless preseason game.

and he put up with that plan until he couldn't take it any more on the last play and they didn't put him back in after that.

[Mikie2times]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

So the example you choose to die on a hill is a 2nd and 24? You realize if he takes the 7 yard in cut there it is now 3rd and 15 at best, AKA 3rd and long? And then on the next play he would have to stand a few seconds in the pocket to deliver a long strike?

 

Seems clear to me that you got stuck in the weeds trying to criticize a play that you have no business criticizing and now you're trying to BS your way out of it. If you want to make a point that Allen and the offense need to take easier throws sometimes, have at it. But you chose a bizarre example to make your point on.

I would say valid point, my bad. But I was never "dying on the hill" over that play. I didn't recall the down and distance as you pointed out. I can post a practical season worth of examples of what I'm describing. So if anything you seem to want to reduce this more to a singular example a lot more than I do. But as I said, this is growing pointless.  No example will change your mind. Does it even matter if it did? You think your opinion is more accurate/educated. I think mine is. It's an old fashion pissing match and I don't come here for that. If you want to circle back mid season sounds good. 

[HappyDays]

9 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

I would say valid point, my bad. But I was never "dying on the hill" over that play. I didn't recall the down and distance as you pointed out. I can post a practical season worth of examples of what I'm describing. So if anything you seem to want to reduce this more to a singular example a lot more than I do. But as I said, this is growing pointless.  No example will change your mind. Does it even matter if it did? You think your opinion is more accurate/educated. I think mine is. It's an old fashion pissing match and I don't come here for that. If you want to circle back mid season sounds good. 

 

I say let's see how the offense looks in real games before drawing conclusions about Allen's willingness to take easier completions. He was doing it last year right up until he busted his UCL which I believe forced him and Dorsey to cut back on some of those shorter routes that put stress on the elbow. His accuracy noticeably dipped after the injury and the kinds of throws you're talking about require precision. In the limited reps he had against the Steelers I can tell his elbow is back to regular function and his accuracy has returned to normal.