Well that was an absolute crap fest - PostGame thread

[GoBills808]

10 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

I think most if it has been a decline post 2021. I actually think his ability to read defenses has regressed with the departure of Daboll. Then really regressed last year as teams figured out a general way to limit his Joshness in the 2nd half of the season.  When Josh is decisive, think play action, he is in rhythm. He knows exactly what he wants to do with the ball. We saw this a lot in the end of 21. Some of that links to confidence and some to system. I think both have taken a hit for Josh. His confidence is hit because he has no exit ability when he doesn't know what to do with the ball. Then further, he is with a new coordinator that isn't nurturing him as much as far as helping with his progressions and allowing him to be decisive. 

 

We will see. I do not think he is Cam by any stretch. 

Bro I don't know if you are joking or what but 'he has no exit ability when he doesn't know what to do with the ball' is one of the least accurate descriptions of Josh Allen I've ever read

[SCBills]

If you need to feel better, watch this compilation of Mazi Smith, the guy Dallas took when we jumped them for Kincaid.  
 

Im sure he’ll get better, but yikes…

 

 

[newcam2012]

6 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

I think most if it has been a decline post 2021. I actually think his ability to read defenses has regressed with the departure of Daboll. Then really regressed last year as teams figured out a general way to limit his Joshness in the 2nd half of the season.  When Josh is decisive, think play action, he is in rhythm. He knows exactly what he wants to do with the ball. We saw this a lot in the end of 21. Some of that links to confidence and some to system. I think both have taken a hit for Josh. His confidence is hit because he has no exit ability when he doesn't know what to do with the ball. Then further, he is with a new coordinator that isn't nurturing him as much as far as helping with his progressions and allowing him to be decisive. 

 

We will see. I do not think he is Cam by any stretch. 

I think you are being ultra critical of Allen. The guy is simply elite, franchise, special, and one of the best in the league. To criticize Allen seems pretty disingenuous imho. Of course, there's always room for improvement but man let's focus on some bonafide issues. Allen isn't the problem he's the solution. He's the building block of the team. 

 

I just don't get the crusade you are on with regards to Allen. About 30 teams would trade their current QB for Allen in a heartbeat. Yes, the Allen who can't read defenses in your eyes. 

 

I think it's wise to focus your criticism elsewhere. 

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, newcam2012 said:

I think you are being ultra critical of Allen. The guy is simply elite, franchise, special, and one of the best in the league. To criticize Allen seems pretty disingenuous imho. Of course, there's always room for improvement but man let's focus on some bonafide issues. Allen isn't the problem he's the solution. He's the building block of the team. 

 

I just don't get the crusade you are on with regards to Allen. About 30 teams would trade their current QB for Allen in a heartbeat. Yes, the Allen who can't read defenses in your eyes. 

 

I think it's wise to focus your criticism elsewhere. 

 

 

Just because Allen is elite doesn’t mean he does everything perfect and cannot be criticized.  

[mjt328]

7 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

He can't read defenses as well as you and others think. That is what I believe. I feel he is slow to get the ball out as a result. Which contributes to a poor offensive line play and turnovers. It also contributes to some only Allen like plays we have seen. I feel Daboll understood this more about Josh than Dorsey. Daboll did more to simplify reads. To create more deliberate throws.

 

By in large, no, I would never think a QB could deliver Allens statistical profile without being very good at reading defenses. But I have never seen a QB thrive when plays break down like Allen has. That was until last year. It was like teams were not going to let him get to the sideline. Ever. Then later in the year, they stopped rushing him. I think teams are making him be just a QB and I think Josh struggles when he doesn't have the escape route he used for the last several years in the form of broken plays.  

 

My opinion isn't changing until I see a reason for it to change. It will change when I see him take hot routes off the blitz. When I see him concentrate more rhythm and timing. When I don't see constant double clutching. A general reduction in time to throw would also be a pretty damn good indicator.  Obviously I hope all these things happen. Allen is one of the best things to happen to all of us in our Bills fandom. Again, I can still be critical of him and feel that way too.  

 

The problem is not in the ability of Josh Allen to read a defense.

The problem is a combination of issues.

 

Stefon Diggs is the only proven receiver on the Bills capable of consistently beating coverage on short/quick/timing routes.  Gabe Davis is more of a downfield threat.  Isaiah McKenzie is just a gadget guy.  The loss of Cole Beasley last year was horribly underrated.  Defenses have gradually figured this out, and focused on taking Diggs away with extra coverage.

 

Realizing the extreme limitations of his other WRs, Ken Dorsey really had no choice but respond with an attack heavy with downfield passes.  While the offensive numbers remained strong overall, the efficiency decreased as the season rolled along.  The inconsistency increased.  It's only natural when you are talking about passes 20+ yards.  With downfield passing, this also requires an average O-Line to withstand an extra 1-2 seconds, which they are generally not capable of doing. 

 

By the end of 2022, all of this resulted in an offense that was mostly Allen running around in the backfield avoiding pass rushers and making miracles happen... along with an offense incapable of consistently sustaining drives, then nosediving in the Red Zone.

 

The success of this season depends on two things:

- Can the Bills get production from other WRs outside of Diggs, especially on quicker/short routes?

- If not, is the O-Line improved enough to allow deeper routes to develop?

 

 

[Heitz]

8 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Oh boy... This is all wrong.

 

Yeah, but the narrative HappyDays, the NARRATIVE!!! 

 

I can't believe that WGR and Bills talking heads are now the voice of reason 🤷‍♂️ 🤣  

[teef]

i haven't had a chance to watch the game yet, and now i'm not sure i even will.

 

 

so...who has been the most angry?

[Coach Tuesday]

5 minutes ago, teef said:

i haven't had a chance to watch the game yet, and now i'm not sure i even will.

 

 

so...who has been the most angry?

 

 

[teef]

1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

 

thank you so much!

[Heitz]

6 minutes ago, teef said:

i haven't had a chance to watch the game yet, and now i'm not sure i even will.

 

 

so...who has been the most angry?

 

Do you even need to ask to know who's overreacting the most!?  You can put the top 5 list together in your head... 🤣  

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Just because Allen is elite doesn’t mean he does everything perfect and cannot be criticized.  

I get that but to imply he can't read defenses is absurd. Sadly, he can't live up to Superman every game. The Bills organization has overly relayed on Allen for years. He's had a subpar oline for years, a new OC, and a lack of weapons. He's literally carried the team on his back for years! The overwhelming sentiment around the league is that the Bills were/are too dependent on Allen. 

 

No one is void of criticism that includes Allen. At times, he tries to do too much and that leads to turnovers, he may hold onto the ball too long, sometimes he's not as accurate as he can be, and he may make the wrong read. I guess if you are anti Josh or a complete perfectionist go ahead and criticize him. Seems pretty silly to me to advocate criticism to arguably the top 3 QB in the league. 

 

Think what he could do with a consistent solid running game, great offensive schemes and play calling, offensive weapons besides Diggs, coaching, and an Oline that can protect him. That where the true and valid criticism lies. Allen is the solution not the problem. 

 

Sadly, when Allen isn't Superman the Bills are more likely to lose especially against good to great teams. I guess it's fair to criticize him for not being Superman. Maybe he needs some more Robins to help him out. 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by newcam2012

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I get that but to imply he can't read defenses is absurd. Sadly, he can't live up to Superman every game. The Bills organization has overly relayed on Allen for years. He's had a subpar oline for years, a new OC, and a lack of weapons. He's literally carried the team in his back for years! The overwhelming sentiment around the league is that the Bills were too dependent on Allen. 

 

No one is void of criticism that includes Allen. At times, he tries to do too much and that leads to turnovers, he may hold onto the ball too long, sometimes he's not as accurate as he can be, and he may make the wrong read. I guess if you are anti Josh or a complete perfectionist go ahead and criticize him. Seems pretty silly to me to advocate criticism to arguably the top 3 QB in the league. 

 

Think what he could do with a consistent solid running game, great offensive schemes and play calling, offensive weapons besides Diggs, coaching, and an Oline that can protect him. That where the true and valid criticism lies. 

 

Sadly when Allen isn't Superman the Bills are more likely to lose especially against good to great teams. I guess it's fair to criticize him for not being Superman. 

 

 

 

In the second paragraph, you said "no one is void of criticism that includes Allen".  In your last sentence, you say it's silly to advocate criticize because he's a top 3 QB?

He plays well, he deserves praise.  If he doesn't, he deserve criticism.  Since he has been the most important piece, you don't harp on the criticism because he's mostly good to great.  One week bad play, it's over, next game.

 

He doesn't have to be Superman every game for us to win.  

[newcam2012]

20 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

In the second paragraph, you said "no one is void of criticism that includes Allen".  In your last sentence, you say it's silly to advocate criticize because he's a top 3 QB?

He plays well, he deserves praise.  If he doesn't, he deserve criticism.  Since he has been the most important piece, you don't harp on the criticism because he's mostly good to great.  One week bad play, it's over, next game.

 

He doesn't have to be Superman every game for us to win.  

Of course, he deserves criticism when he plays poorly. I've criticized him myself. My premise isn't that he is void of criticism.

 

My contention is that he can read defenses. He vision is very good. A poster stated he can't read defenses. I think that's just flat out inaccurate. 

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

5 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Of course, he deserves criticism when he plays poorly. I've criticized him myself. My premise isn't that he is void of criticism.

 

My contention is that he can read defenses. He vision is very good. A poster stated he can't read defenses. I think that's just flat out inaccurate. 

 

 

 

Of course he can read a defense.  If someone is saying that he can't, that's completely wrong.

[UKBillFan]

15 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Of course, he deserves criticism when he plays poorly. I've criticized him myself. My premise isn't that he is void of criticism.

 

My contention is that he can read defenses. He vision is very good. A poster stated he can't read defenses. I think that's just flat out inaccurate. 

 

 

In fairness, the OP said Josh can’t read defenses as well as some think, not that he can’t read defenses at all.

[Royale with Cheese]

17 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

In fairness, the OP said Josh can’t read defenses as well as some think, not that he can’t read defenses at all.

 

Cherry picking times when he did it here or there isn't evidence.  

 

You look at his whole body of work.  He reads more often than he doesn't....which is why he's very successful.  

[Jerome007]

12 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Josh is one of the most talented QB's to ever play the game. He is still plenty capable at the position while having the issues I describe. If we want to have Super Bowl aspirations he either needs to eliminate what I'm describing which he largely did at the end of 2021 or we need more talent. This team is not good enough at blocking or tackling to win a Super Bowl without a QB who is elite at reading defenses...

 

Brady was the best ever, Manning, and Brees were both pretty close. All three have less talent than Josh.   

 

Yes, Josh needs to do a better job at that. He is not perfect. But the Bills O was Top5 last year. And has the tools to be #1. Over the years he has worked on his feet positioning when throwing to gain accuracy, it worked. Then improving in the middle routes, it worked. If he has better timing for quick throws, it would indeed be a great improvement, for sure. But he is ALREADY elite and can help a team win a SuperBowl. Like, "current Josh". But he can improve. We all can. The point is we can criticize, and we will all do ha ha, but there is a way to do it.  Some (not pointing you out here) are just negative Nancys, and point all the faults, real or imagined, all the time. As if perfection was the only acceptable standard. 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Jerome007

[newcam2012]

20 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

 

Yes, Josh needs to do a better job at that. He is not perfect. But the Bills O was Top5 last year. And has the tools to be #1. Over the years he has worked on his feet positioning when throwing to gain accuracy, it worked. Then improving in the middle routes, it worked. If he has better timing for quick throws, it would indeed be a great improvement, for sure. But he is ALREADY elite and can help a team win a SuperBowl. Like, "current Josh". But he can improve. We all can. The point is we can criticize, and we will all do ha ha, but there is a way to do it.  Some (not pointing you out here) are just negative Nancys, and point all the faults, real or imagined, all the time. As if perfection was the only acceptable standard. 

Well stated!

[90sBills]

1 hour ago, newcam2012 said:

 

No one is void of criticism that includes Allen. At times, he tries to do too much and that leads to turnovers, he may hold onto the ball too long, sometimes he's not as accurate as he can be, and he may make the wrong read. I guess if you are anti Josh or a complete perfectionist go ahead and criticize him. Seems pretty silly to me to advocate criticism to arguably the top 3 QB in the league. 

 

 

 

 

I don’t think it’s arguable at all that’s he’s a top 3 qb in this league. Of course he can read defenses. He’s an elite qb. Can he improve on that ability? Absolutely! If he’s able to improve on knowing how defenses are playing him he would be more decisive on where to go with the ball. This will lead to quicker releases to help out the Oline. All of a sudden the Oline wouldn’t seem as bad because the ball is out quicker. Also knowing and taking what defenses give him will make his receivers better.

 

What you’re advocating in your post is give Allen superior teammates in all positions for him to be successful. That’s not an elite qb. That’s a qb that needs his team to lift him up. Elite qbs elevate mediocre teammates and make them look good. There are offensive talents on this team. He needs to adjust his game to take advantage of them.

 

I have a lot of hope going into this season. Those couple of series put a little dent in my optimism. I thought him and the offense would come out a lot sharper than they did. Given what happened in the Cincy game and all offseason to ‘focus on football’ he came out looking really indecisive. 

[GoBills808]

12 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

I don’t think it’s arguable at all that’s he’s a top 3 qb in this league. Of course he can read defenses. He’s an elite qb. Can he improve on that ability? Absolutely! If he’s able to improve on knowing how defenses are playing him he would be more decisive on where to go with the ball. This will lead to quicker releases to help out the Oline. All of a sudden the Oline wouldn’t seem as bad because the ball is out quicker. Also knowing and taking what defenses give him will make his receivers better.

 

What you’re advocating in your post is give Allen superior teammates in all positions for him to be successful. That’s not an elite qb. That’s a qb that needs his team to lift him up. Elite qbs elevate mediocre teammates and make them look good. There are offensive talents on this team. He needs to adjust his game to take advantage of them.

 

I have a lot of hope going into this season. Those couple of series put a little dent in my optimism. I thought him and the offense would come out a lot sharper than they did. Given what happened in the Cincy game and all offseason to ‘focus on football’ he came out looking really indecisive. 

like who?