Well that was an absolute crap fest - PostGame thread

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

As for your theory. Who knows. I have watched every play for over 20 years. Plenty of elite QB's lose talent and keep on being elite. So I'm not inclined to put the emphasis on JUST the WR's or OLINE, as so many here do. Josh is 50% of the issue. Most people can't see it because he creates 90% of the solutions. It is just a dumb preseason game, but what happened in the play above is just an extension of last years Josh.   

So who were the "talent" that Allen lost over the last few years? Rogers lost Adams, Mahomes lost Hill but all I see is that Allen loses stop gap skill players and O linemen. 

 

You can't accept the fact that Allen has had much less talent on the O line and among the skill players over the last 5 years then Burrow, Mahomes, Hurts, Rogers, Brady, Prescott, Herbert, Jackson, Stafford, etc., etc.

 

And when dd Allen stop being an elite QB?  By every measure Allen was elite in 2022. 

 

 

[Mikie2times]

38 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

So who were the "talent" that Allen lost over the last few years? Rogers lost Adams, Mahomes lost Hill but all I see is that Allen loses stop gap skill players and O linemen. 

 

You can't accept the fact that Allen has had much less talent on the O line and among the skill players over the last 5 years then Burrow, Mahomes, Hurts, Rogers, Brady, Prescott, Herbert, Jackson, Stafford, etc., etc.

 

And when dd Allen stop being an elite QB?  By every measure Allen was elite in 2022. 

 

 

I'm sorry, I was confused trying to understand how you can lose something that you're now saying never existed. So are you saying that "adjustments"? Can you elaborate on what those adjustments were? From what I could see, they involved not letting Josh break contain and improvise, not rushing him recklessly, and blitzing much less (which is pretty clear in the data). Basically, they're making him do what I'm saying he isn't the best at. Which is is one, two, three, throw. Lets also not pretend that RB even factored into this. Cook was parked underneath for a check down a disturbing amount of times last year. The only time Josh has engaged the check down from the RB position was the end of 2021 and look at what it did for him. 

 

1 hour ago, Jerome007 said:

 

Yes, on THAT play, it is accurate. The out was there all along, and it was Diggs too. But while at it, prove Josh does that all the time.

 

It's always the team's own fans that sees all these mistakes, thinking the players should be perfect, and comparing to other teams' HIGHLIGHTS. As far as I know, even Brady, Brees, Peyton, in their best years, had some INTs, and didn't have over 75% complete rates!

I can pick any tape from last year. Very few of his throws are made at the top of his drop. It only happens in rhythm on play action or if his first or second read is locked in while he drops back. If he doesn't know 100% where he is going at the top of his drop he will start patting it and then it has to be a clear stair it down throw. If the rush disrupts his timing he will not look at the check down or trust shorter routes until after they have developed. Past seasons he would run or roll out in any of the above scenarios. That's how he essentially converted all these "I'm not sure" moments into big wins.  He can't do that anymore and its taking the rhythm out of the offense by forcing 3rd and long which did not go well last year.     

 

3rd and long last year:

Allen was 27 of 64, 522 Yards

Burrow was 54 of 83, 654 yards

Mahomes was 40 of 63, 837 yards

 

As far as completion % at least align it to when they played. It does matter.  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/NFL/passing.htm Josh is actually below the league average for his time. Which doesn't matter to me, you brought it up in poor context. 

 

Josh is one of the most talented QB's to ever play the game. He is still plenty capable at the position while having the issues I describe. If we want to have Super Bowl aspirations he either needs to eliminate what I'm describing which he largely did at the end of 2021 or we need more talent. This team is not good enough at blocking or tackling to win a Super Bowl without a QB who is elite at reading defenses...

 

Brady was the best ever, Manning, and Brees were both pretty close. All three have less talent than Josh.   

 

 

 

[GoBills808]

The guy responsible for the most TDs in the league over the last 3 seasons can't read defenses and needs to improve for the team to win a Super Bowl lol

 

keep squeezing that stone buddy

[Draconator]

52 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

I'm sorry, I was confused trying to understand how you can lose something that you're now saying never existed. So are you saying that "adjustments"? Can you elaborate on what those adjustments were? From what I could see, they involved not letting Josh break contain and improvise, not rushing him recklessly, and blitzing much less (which is pretty clear in the data). Basically, they're making him do what I'm saying he isn't the best at. Which is is one, two, three, throw. Lets also not pretend that RB even factored into this. Cook was parked underneath for a check down a disturbing amount of times last year. The only time Josh has engaged the check down from the RB position was the end of 2021 and look at what it did for him. 

 

I can pick any tape from last year. Very few of his throws are made at the top of his drop. It only happens in rhythm on play action or if his first or second read is locked in while he drops back. If he doesn't know 100% where he is going at the top of his drop he will start patting it and then it has to be a clear stair it down throw. If the rush disrupts his timing he will not look at the check down or trust shorter routes until after they have developed. Past seasons he would run or roll out in any of the above scenarios. That's how he essentially converted all these "I'm not sure" moments into big wins.  He can't do that anymore and its taking the rhythm out of the offense by forcing 3rd and long which did not go well last year.     

 

3rd and long last year:

Allen was 27 of 64, 522 Yards

Burrow was 54 of 83, 654 yards

Mahomes was 40 of 63, 837 yards

 

As far as completion % at least align it to when they played. It does matter.  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/NFL/passing.htm Josh is actually below the league average for his time. Which doesn't matter to me, you brought it up in poor context. 

 

Josh is one of the most talented QB's to ever play the game. He is still plenty capable at the position while having the issues I describe. If we want to have Super Bowl aspirations he either needs to eliminate what I'm describing which he largely did at the end of 2021 or we need more talent. This team is not good enough at blocking or tackling to win a Super Bowl without a QB who is elite at reading defenses...

 

Brady was the best ever, Manning, and Brees were both pretty close. All three have less talent than Josh.   

 

 

 

You just grouped yourself with Einstein, Airseven, Balin, and Buffalo Sports Fan. Congratulations. Do you want a medal or a chest to pin it on?

[HappyDays]

11 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

I suspect you’d think we had a top pass blocking OL if Josh had the processing ability of a Tom Brady.

 

That's a ridiculous thing to say. We had a top passing blocking OL for a half season in 2020. Every other period of the Josh Allen era it has been below average. You think all the analytics sites, grading sites, etc. that rate our OL poorly are making it up?

[HappyDays]

10 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

The 35 yard throw to Gabe, he was on his 2nd or third clutch. Saw it and ripped it.

 

Oh boy... This is all wrong. He went through his progressions right to left and ripped it to Davis as soon as he came to him and saw that the safety on that side of the field was facing the other way and Davis had gotten past his man. If he had thrown that route with the "anticipation" you propose, he would have had to float it in there instead of firing a bullet and the safety would have easily broken up the play or possibly intercepted it.

 

I don't know when it became dogma that seeing a route develop before throwing the ball is a bad thing, but in reality a QB would ideally always want to see a route develop before throwing it so he has more information about what kind throw he should be making. There is a time for anticipation throws, but deep corner routes with a safety roaming that side of the field is not one of them. This is literally basic Madden type stuff.

 

I'm genuinely shocked that you would post an opinion like this so confidently. What is going on these past few pages? Josh double clutches? He doesn't see the field? His OL is secretly top tier? Of course he makes mistakes but some of you are really grasping for straws here and for the life of me I can't understand why.

 

EDIT: Here's the play in question:

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by HappyDays

[newcam2012]

10 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Yup.....watched the whole game

 

How many throws did he make on time at the top of his drop?

 

The 35 yard throw to Gabe, he was on his 2nd or third clutch. Saw it and ripped it. I don't need proof if he sees a guy open, that he can deliver it. I need proof that he doesn't see a guy, he see's a coverage, he can get the ball out on time and in rhythm.  

This is pretty crazy. Allen is the key reason why the Bills are on a playoff run. He's that good! Of course he's not perfect, makes errors, and can't do it by himself especially in the playoffs. 

 

This take is pretty hard to understand and justify. Allen is clearly one of the top QBs in the league. He's the least of the Bills issues. 

[Mikie2times]

10 minutes ago, Draconator said:

You just grouped yourself with Einstein, Airseven, Balin, and Buffalo Sports Fan. Congratulations. Do you want a medal or a chest to pin it on?

That's fine dude. 

 

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

Oh boy... This is all wrong. He went through his progressions right to left and ripped it to Davis as soon as he came to him and saw that the safety on that side of the field was facing the other way. If he that thrown that route with the "anticipation" you want, he would have had to float it in there instead of firing a bullet and the safety would have easily broken up the play.

 

I don't know when it became dogma that seeing a route develop before throwing the ball is a bad thing, but in reality a QB would ideally always want to see a route develop before throwing it so he has more information about what kind throw he should be making. There is a time for anticipation throws, but deep corner routes with a safety roaming that side of the field is not one of them.

 

I'm genuinely shocked that you would post an opinion like this so confidently. What is going on these past few pages? Josh double clutches? He doesn't see the field? Of course he makes mistakes but some of you are really grasping for straws here and for the life of me I can't understand why.

 

It's funny. I started a thread about midway through last season. I brought up that Burrow was probably just as good as Josh and that the Bengals were a real threat. Only to be treated as I have been in this thread. I brought it up because I like balance in thought and nobody gave Burrow the time of day which seemed homerish to say the least. 

 

The further I diverge in thought from the masses, the more inclined I am to fight them. I care a lot more about truth than some rule about how I should act as a Bills fan. I love Josh, this team, and everything to do with Buffalo. But I'm not going to be a homer or fail to discuss what I'm seeing because it's not popular. If by your standard that makes me a bad contributor so be it. I guess only good contributors see things as you see them and they fall in line in feeling as everybody else feels.  We have plenty of very smart people here. I'm not the only one who see's what I'm discussing. But fighting the 20 to 1 ratio of posts you get when you just try and say Josh isn't perfect is worthless to most.

[HappyDays]

5 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

It's funny. I started a thread about midway through last season. I brought up that Burrow was probably just as good as Josh and that the Bengals were a real threat. Only to be treated as I have been in this thread. I brought it up because I like balance in thought and nobody gave Burrow the time of day which seemed homerish to say the least. 

 

The further I diverge in thought from the masses, the more inclined I am to fight them. I care a lot more about truth than some rule about how I should act as a Bills fan. I love Josh, this team, and everything to do with Buffalo. But I'm not going to be a homer or fail to discuss what I'm seeing because it's not popular. If by your standard that makes me a bad contributor so be it. I guess only good contributors see things as you see them and they fall in line in feeling as everybody else feels.  We have plenty of very smart people here. I'm not the only one who see's what I'm discussing. But fighting the 20 to 1 ratio of posts you get when you just try and say Josh isn't perfect is worthless to most.

 

So instead of disputing the points I made that directly countered your bizarre interpretation of that play, you decided to climb up on your soapbox and cry "woe is me."

 

My ignore list has grown very quickly over the past 12 months and my enjoyment of the forum has grown with it.

[Mikie2times]

28 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

That's a ridiculous thing to say. We had a top passing blocking OL for a half season in 2020. Every other period of the Josh Allen era it has been below average. You think all the analytics sites, grading sites, etc. that rate our OL poorly are making it up?

Brady having the ball out in rhythm all the time. Having the fastest release time. That didn't contribute to how good the line looked to you?  

 

9 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

This is pretty crazy. Allen is the key reason why the Bills are on a playoff run. He's that good! Of course he's not perfect, makes errors, and can't do it by himself especially in the playoffs. 

 

This take is pretty hard to understand and justify. Allen is clearly one of the top QBs in the league. He's the least of the Bills issues. 

I never came close to saying Josh Allen isn't an elite player. I said he isn't good at reading defenses. When you're one of the elite talents of all time you can still be elite without doing that all that well. 

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

So instead of disputing the points I made that directly countered your bizarre interpretation of that play, you decided to climb up on your soapbox and cry "woe is me."

 

My ignore list has grown very quickly over the past 12 months and my enjoyment of the forum has grown with it.

You want me to dispute your memory of the play vs my memory of the play? If you have a link post it? I recall Allen clutching the ball too long, progressing in his reads, seeing Davis open on the left and making a throw nobody can make. He would be sacked doing exactly what he did in many situations. But all you see is the outcome in front of you.  

 

I posted a play where he clearly did what I described. It also worked. Does that mean it was the right way to process the play?

 

Do you want to resolve this going one play at a time? Help me get off my soapbox please. 

[newcam2012]

6 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

 

 @CincyBillsFan I mean, given we went a whole year in 2022 hearing why we won't attempt short throws, it's eye opening that you just expect this will change in 2023. Will it be Dorsey that we will blame? Josh's elbow? What will be the reason we can't hit a quick slant this year?

 

@GoBills808 Late in 2021, I presume largely based on a offensive coordinator that designed it to be that way, I saw Josh decimating teams with his reads. The ball was out and out quick. Didn't happen last year. It also just so happens last year was the first year teams stopped allowing Josh the sidelines to do whatever he wanted. Then as the season progressed, they stopped rushing him. Now he has an OC who I presume isn't taking such an emphasis on routes and motion that shows coverages.  Josh isn't getting the ball out at the top of his drop. He's double clutching. The off spring of Ray Charles could see it...it's nearly every pass. 

 

But again, how dare I as part of Bills fandom, blame Josh for even contributing to a minor issue. He is incapable of fault. All we can admit out loud is that sometimes he makes the "silly" mistake and even when that happens, it's really just because he's passionate. It's also not a "bad" mistake. It's "silly". Like a child, because Josh has a youthful exuberance.

 

 

 

 

I'm one big critic of players and coaches. That's truly an understatement. 

 

Your anti Allen crusade is pretty far off and off base. I don't think most here are afraid to criticize Allen when he plays poorly. Yes, he does have poor games. Yes, he did throw some really bad INTs last year. Yes, he should make easier underneath throws, etc... Yes, sometimes he tries to do too much and makes errors. Yes, he does make some bad throws. Criticism is warranted at times. I'm the first one to jump on him for poor play. 

 

However, Allen is the least of the Bills problems. He's the exact opposite. He's the glue, the stability of the team, the franchise QB all teams look for, and directly responsible for most of the Bills winning. Without Allen, the Bills would likely not make the playoffs. The team isn't nearly as good without him. 

 

The Bills organization is very fortunate to have Allen. It was a beyond fantastic pick by Beane. Allen was anything but a sure thing. Huge potential that has absolutely reaked vast rewards. Be appreciative of this. Criticizing him is more than OK. Allen is the first to say when he plays like Shi#. 

 

Come on man, the anti Allen crusade is pretty ridiculous unless you are trolling. 

[Mikie2times]

1 minute ago, newcam2012 said:

I'm one big critic of players and coaches. That's truly an understatement. 

 

Your anti Allen crusade is pretty far off and off base. I don't think most here are afraid to criticize Allen when he plays poorly. Yes, he does have poor games. Yes, he did throw some really bad INTs last year. Yes, he should make easier underneath throws, etc... Yes, sometimes he tries to do too much and makes errors. Yes, he does make some bad throws. Criticism is warranted at times. I'm the first one to jump on him for poor play. 

 

However, Allen is the least of the Bills problems. He's the exact opposite. He's the glue, the stability of the team, the franchise QB all teams look for, and directly responsible for most of the Bills winning. Without Allen, the Bills would likely not make the playoffs. The team isn't nearly as good without him. 

 

The Bills organization is very fortunate to have Allen. It was a beyond fantastic pick by Beane. Allen was anything but a sure thing. Huge potential that has absolutely reaked vast rewards. Be appreciative of this. Criticizing him is more than OK. Allen is the first to say when he plays like Shi#. 

 

Come on man, the anti Allen crusade is pretty ridiculous unless you are trolling. 

I have been here since 2000, I have an excellent reputation, I don't think I'm trolling. I also think Josh is responsible for most the reasons we are even having this conversation (the Bills being good).

 

Is it ok to think Josh is responsible for most of our success, while also expressing the view I did or do you have to hate Josh and think he is responsible for nothing if you don't think he's the best at reading defenses? Just let me know what box I need to climb into to fit your view of how I should be a fan.  

[newcam2012]

6 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Brady having the ball out in rhythm all the time. Having the fastest release time. That didn't contribute to how good the line looked to you?  

 

I never came close to saying Josh Allen isn't an elite player. I said he isn't good at reading defenses. When you're one of the elite talents of all time you can still be elite without doing that all that well. 

You want me to dispute your memory of the play vs my memory of the play? If you have a link post it? I recall Allen clutching the ball too long, progressing in his reads, seeing Davis open on the left and making a throw nobody can make. He would be sacked doing exactly what he did in many situations. But all you see is the outcome in front of you.  

 

I posted a play where he clearly did what I described. It also worked. Does that mean it was the right way to process the play?

 

Do you want to resolve this going one play at a time? Help me get off my soapbox please. 

Come on man. You haven't watched Allen play enough if you think he can't read defenses. 

 

Does he get fooled by defenses? Yes at times he does? Does he take big chances with his throws. Yes he does. 

 

However, to imply the guy can't read defenses is absurd. You don't have his stats without him being able to have much success reading defenses. No way no how! 

1 minute ago, Mikie2times said:

I have been here since 2000, I have an excellent reputation, I don't think I'm trolling. I also think Josh is responsible for most the reasons we are even having this conversation (the Bills being good).

 

Is it ok to think Josh is responsible for most of our success, while also expressing the view I did or do you have to hate Josh and think he is responsible for nothing if you don't think he's the best at reading defenses? Just let me know what box I need to climb into to fit your view of how I should be a fan.  

You don't have to check any box for me. However, when I see ridiculous takes I will challenge them. No offense. Frankly, it's ridiculous to say Allen can't read a defense. 

[Draconator]

Over/Under when Mikie shows his W2 to prove how smart he is. I say by the 5th game. 

[Mikie2times]

Just now, newcam2012 said:

Come on man. You haven't watched Allen play enough if you think he can't read defenses. 

 

Does he get fooled by defenses? Yes at times he does? Does he take big chances with his throws. Yes he does. 

 

However, to imply the guy can't read defenses is absurd. You don't have his stats without him being able to have much success reading defenses. No way no how! 

He can't read defenses as well as you and others think. That is what I believe. I feel he is slow to get the ball out as a result. Which contributes to a poor offensive line play and turnovers. It also contributes to some only Allen like plays we have seen. I feel Daboll understood this more about Josh than Dorsey. Daboll did more to simplify reads. To create more deliberate throws.

 

By in large, no, I would never think a QB could deliver Allens statistical profile without being very good at reading defenses. But I have never seen a QB thrive when plays break down like Allen has. That was until last year. It was like teams were not going to let him get to the sideline. Ever. Then later in the year, they stopped rushing him. I think teams are making him be just a QB and I think Josh struggles when he doesn't have the escape route he used for the last several years in the form of broken plays.  

 

My opinion isn't changing until I see a reason for it to change. It will change when I see him take hot routes off the blitz. When I see him concentrate more rhythm and timing. When I don't see constant double clutching. A general reduction in time to throw would also be a pretty damn good indicator.  Obviously I hope all these things happen. Allen is one of the best things to happen to all of us in our Bills fandom. Again, I can still be critical of him and feel that way too.  

[Brand J]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

That's a ridiculous thing to say. We had a top passing blocking OL for a half season in 2020. Every other period of the Josh Allen era it has been below average. You think all the analytics sites, grading sites, etc. that rate our OL poorly are making it up?

Key sentence, HappyDays: “I suspect you’d think…” I’m saying if Josh was a quicker decision maker, ala on the level of a Tom Brady, the amount of times he’s pressured would be greatly reduced, thereby giving the illusion the OL is a top pass blocking unit. It’s not a ridiculous concept or thing to say. 

Edited August 21, 2023 by JayBaller10

[transplantbillsfan]

Ya know I watched this game a day late after reading all these sky is falling threads.

 

Allen, Diggs, Davis, Kincaid, Torrence looked good. Our D will be fine. Need OT depth... but might be fine with what we have.

 

Got blown out after 2 bad plays and a ton of uncharacteristic penalties.

 

Bring on the regular season, please.

[newcam2012]

11 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

He can't read defenses as well as you and others think. That is what I believe. I feel he is slow to get the ball out as a result. Which contributes to a poor offensive line play and turnovers. It also contributes to some only Allen like plays we have seen. I feel Daboll understood this more about Josh than Dorsey. Daboll did more to simplify reads. To create more deliberate throws.

 

By in large, no, I would never think a QB could deliver Allens statistical profile without being very good at reading defenses. But I have never seen a QB thrive when plays break down like Allen has. That was until last year. It was like teams were not going to let him get to the sideline. Ever. Then later in the year, they stopped rushing him. I think teams are making him be just a QB and I think Josh struggles when he doesn't have the escape route he used for the last several years in the form of broken plays.  

 

My opinion isn't changing until I see a reason for it to change. It will change when I see him take hot routes off the blitz. When I see him concentrate more rhythm and timing. When I don't see constant double clutching. A general reduction in time to throw would also be a pretty damn good indicator.  Obviously I hope all these things happen. Allen is one of the best things to happen to all of us in our Bills fandom. Again, I can still be critical of him and feel that way too.  

Perhaps it's terminology. You said "he can't read defenses." That's just not true! If you said he can improve in reading defenses then I think thats fair. Besides Brady and Breeze, I'm not sure any QB can't improve reading defenses. 

 

I don't think anyone would debate that Allen or any other QB couldn't improve in reading a defense. I don't think many football fans will agree that Allen can't read a defense. A top 3-5 QB in the NFL has to have skill in reading a defense. Think Cam Newton here. No way in hell is Allen a version of Newton in the passing game. 

 

Did you see him play the game against the Chiefs? The 13 second game as a reference. Arguably one of the best QB performances I've seen. His vision was virtually flawless. 

[Mikie2times]

1 minute ago, newcam2012 said:

Perhaps it's terminology. You said "he can't read defenses." That's just not true! If you said he can improve in reading defenses then I think thats fair. Besides Brady and Breeze, I'm not sure any QB can't improve reading defenses. 

 

I don't think anyone would debate that Allen or any other QB couldn't improve in reading a defense. I don't think many football fans will agree that Allen can't read a defense. A top 3-5 QB in the NFL has to have skill in reading a defense. Think Cam Newton here. No way in hell is Allen a version of Newton in the passing game. 

 

Did you see him play the game against the Chiefs? The 13 second game as a reference. Arguably one of the best QB performances I've seen. His vision was virtually flawless. 

I think most if it has been a decline post 2021. I actually think his ability to read defenses has regressed with the departure of Daboll. Then really regressed last year as teams figured out a general way to limit his Joshness in the 2nd half of the season.  When Josh is decisive, think play action, he is in rhythm. He knows exactly what he wants to do with the ball. We saw this a lot in the end of 21. Some of that links to confidence and some to system. I think both have taken a hit for Josh. His confidence is hit because he has no exit ability when he doesn't know what to do with the ball. Then further, he is with a new coordinator that isn't nurturing him as much as far as helping with his progressions and allowing him to be decisive. 

 

We will see. I do not think he is Cam by any stretch. 

[BobbyC81]

Sure it was a preseason game and there are 3 weeks til the opener.

 

What I didn’t like was the lack of focus and discipline with our starters out on the field.  Physical mistakes are one thing, but mental are just as tough to correct.   Also, the long RB touchdown and the kick return may have continued to display the roster’s overall lack of speed, especially defensively.