Isabella shows moves, will he make the roster?

[PBF81]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

But it does matter to them.

 

Does it?  

 

On one hand we have no idea who the coaches are going to cut, and they obviously keep their cards close to their vests.  

 

On the other, we already know in advance, that a WR that's done all but nothing in five seasons, averaging much fewer than 200s yards and 1 TD per season, despite having a relatively negligible cap hit, has zero chance of being cut should Isabella be kept on?  

 

The premise floated is that Khalil and Shorter cannot backup Diggs/Davis.  IMO that's absurd.  And Khalil as a rookie posted what Sherfield's averaged in five seasons.  And Khalil has posted more catches and yards as a rookie in the playoffs than Sherfield has in five seasons, which is none, he has no postseason catches.  

 

I also do not see them cutting their 5th-round pick at WR this year either.  If they do then questions need to start being asked about picks like that.  

 

Shorter, as I pointed out, was on an SEC team which ranked near the bottom in passing, had one of the worst passing offenses, and one of the least efficient and worst QBs in the conference.  His ceiling is higher than his draft status.  

 

 

[NickelCity]

I think we keep 6 receivers, and Isabella will be #6.

[PBF81]

8 minutes ago, Doc said:

The same as in Buffalo.  The Bills signed him to the 53 with Daboll as OC and kept him the following year.  Obviously that must been with Daboll's blessing.

 

I'm sure it was, but you said he used him more, which is false.  He used him less.  

 

So whether or not Daboll is going to create a new FB roster spot for him over there remains to be seen.  

 

We're not even sure he'll be cut.  IMO there's a reasonable chance.  Gunner sees it differently.  

 

Time will tell.  I'm sure that whatever the team does this season, it's going to be with an emphasis on improving Allen's passing game, reducing his running the ball, etc.  The drafting of Kincaid and Torrence spells that out, at least as I see it.  

 

 

[Einstein]

7 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Honestly, why not just cut Matakevich if we want to keep Isabella?

 

We would incur a $2.5M dead cap hit if we cut Matakevich. Just something to keep in mind.

 

 

[SCBills]

Just now, Einstein said:

 

We would incur a $2.5M dead cap hit if we cut Matakevich. Just something to keep in mind.

 

 

Yea.. it would simply be due to us valuing Isabella over him, as Isabella doesn’t cost much. 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

I suspect if you tracked every short yardage conversion elsewhere on the field he would have a bigger role. They also use him as I have said to get favourable matchups. And again.... the argument isn't that he is a top 5 full back in the NFL. He is a pretty good special teams player, and particularly in punt coverage has value because he can play 3 different positions on punt team including personal protector. But I wouldn't say he is top 5 in the NFL as a STer either. Nor would I argue he is a top 5 blocking tight end. 

 

The point is EVERY roster has 1 or 2 offensive players at either FB or TE who are mainly on the team to block. Some have two. Very few of those teams get the value out of that / those players that the Bills get out of Gilliam on special teams. Take my Eagles example. They kept two blocking tight ends and no fullback. But even adding the % of STs snaps those two TEs played together comes to less than what Gilliam played on teams for the Bills. So most need at least two players - an offensive skill position blocker and a special teams player - and sometimes 3 guys to do what Gilliam does for Buffalo. That is his value. Not that he does a single thing brilliantly, but that he actually SAVES them a roster spot for a position player who will put up some stats either on offense or defense because of his multi-functionality. 

 

As I say, most fans don't understand special teams. Most fans don't like 'skill' position blockers. It is what it is. But Gilliam does 3 jobs to a reasonable standard and it lets them use their other spots on guys who catch, run, and tackle (on the defensive side). 

 

BTW, I'm still waiting for the evidence that you used to garner all of that.  Not to be snarky at all, I'm truly interested in seeing it.  

 

Knowing you, there's gotta be something besides "the coaches said" that's behind this.   Please share.  I'd love to take the time to see it, truly.  

 

 

[Doc]

9 minutes ago, Einstein said:

What is going to doom Shavers is that he doesnt do anything else particularly well.

 

Shorter has the potential to be a good receiver and an elite tall endzone threat. That plus his experience in ST, I believe, will earn him a spot.

Shavers... all he has is the special teams. That's why he wasn't drafted. On a roster as deep as the Bills is, that's not enough. 

 

Shorter isn't making any waves at receiver either from what I can gather.  

 

2 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

I'm sure it was, but you said he used him more, which is false.  He used him less.  

 

So whether or not Daboll is going to create a new FB roster spot for him over there remains to be seen.  

 

We're not even sure he'll be cut.  IMO there's a reasonable chance.  Gunner sees it differently.  

 

Time will tell.  I'm sure that whatever the team does this season, it's going to be with an emphasis on improving Allen's passing game, reducing his running the ball, etc.  The drafting of Kincaid and Torrence spells that out, at least as I see it. 

 

Huh?  Gilliam joined the Bills in 2000.  Daboll was OC in 2018.  He used him how he used him.

[Big Turk]

Unlikely. PS candidate with call up potential.

[SCBills]

2 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Shorter isn't making any waves at receiver either from what I can gather.  

 

 

Huh?  Gilliam joined the Bills in 2000.  Daboll was OC in 2018.  He used him how he used him.

I don’t think anyone is really expecting Shorter to show a ton this year.  
 

He’s an incredibly raw prospect with size and speed.  
 

My only worry with cutting Shakir or Shorter is that we would only have Diggs, Harty and one of those two under contract for next year at WR.  
 

We’d be looking at half of our WR room

and 70% of our DL rotation not under contract past this season. 
 

Ultimately I trust Beane to figure it out, but I’m not sure we want to create more holes than necessary, knowing that next year we have a lot of one year deal guys and expiring contracts coming up … all the while entering the season over the cap. 

[ColoradoBills]

Currently 5 WRs are locks with Shorter as #6.  The path for Andy Isabella making the team is for him to look great at KRs AND playing very

well at WR.  If that happens then Isabella would need to dress on Sundays for his KR spot.  That means Shorter would sit often (red shirted).

Without a mysterious injury to Shorter to start the season, I see the chances of Isabella making the squad currently as under 50%.

 

Let's keep an eye on him the next 2 weeks (starting in a few hours).

 

OT:  I understand Gilliams's usefulness in his past role BUT in my mind, there is a chance he could be cut.  Knox has lined up often in the backfield

this camp and with the other youngsters having ST skills, I don't have him as a lock.  I do think he probably makes the team.

Quintin Morris played a lot of ST last year too, so there could be some overlap in skills.

 

I know how much ST's are favored with this staff BUT I can see a chance of one of the big 3 (Gilliam, Matakevich and Neal) being let go.

Once again, probably not, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[PBF81]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

Huh?  Gilliam joined the Bills in 2000.  Daboll was OC in 2018.  He used him how he used him.

 

I just pointed out that Daboll used him less than Dorsey did.  

 

3 carries in two seasons?  For a 3 yards?  

 

Zero targets or catches?  

 

As pointed out, Gilliam wasn't in on a single rushing TD play last season.  So your argument is that he was in on a bunch of them under Daboll?  
 

I'll pose the same question to you that I posed to Gunner, where's the actual evidence that he's more than JAG?  

 

Daboll's going to cut another spot and install a FB when he didn't bother to even try one out this season and didn't use one last year?  I suppose it's possible, but again, why is everyone so high on Gilliam?  He clearly contributes little to scoring, is only in on every sixth offensive play.  He ranked 17th in snaps taken offensively.  Immediately behind him were Hart and Crowder, the latter of which saw only a handful of games.  

 

IDK, maybe you're right, if we even cut him, he'll end up on the Giants.  I'm simply questioning the logic other than Daboll picking up every offensive player that we might release that played under him here.  

 

 

[ColoradoBills]

12 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

We would incur a $2.5M dead cap hit if we cut Matakevich. Just something to keep in mind.

 

 

 

He has a void year in his contract so some of the dead cap would carry over next year.

[Rubes]

I think it probably comes down to which of the two, between Isabella and Shorter, are more likely to make it through waivers so they can be stashed on the PS. From what I read, I think Shorter would probably get snatched up before Isabella. My guess is Isabella makes it onto the PS this year and possibly gets called up.

 

[That's No Moon]

23 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

Shorter, as I pointed out, was on an SEC team which ranked near the bottom in passing, had one of the worst passing offenses, and one of the least efficient and worst QBs in the conference.  His ceiling is higher than his draft status.  

Wasn't his QB just the #4 pick in the draft? I also remember talking about Shorter's upside as a 5 star recruit at Penn State, where he did next to nothing before transferring to Florida where he also didn't do a ton.

[Cash]

2 hours ago, transient said:

Definitely a bruiser, but Gash did have 1300+ yds and 13 receiving TDs in his career… over half of that with the Bills. He was enough of a threat to catch teams off guard. 

I’d argue that he caught teams off guard precisely because he WASN’T much of a threat, but point taken. Those were some lean years when we were getting excited about our FA signings at FB. (And yes, I was one of the people excited when we signed Gash.)

 

FWIW, I think Gilliam would be much more productive in the passing game than Gash if given the opportunity, and wouldn’t mind seeing him get a few more looks in the pass game. He’s nowhere near the Larry Centers level though - Centers is arguably the best receiving back of all time, RBs included.

[wppete]

Really hope we find a way to keep Isabella and Shorter on this roster. 

[SCBills]

8 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

Wasn't his QB just the #4 pick in the draft? I also remember talking about Shorter's upside as a 5 star recruit at Penn State, where he did next to nothing before transferring to Florida where he also didn't do a ton.

Richardson was definitely not drafted for his college production. 

[Rocky Landing]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

There are at least 9 WRs on the roster right now that will be on rosters this year.  Some of our 3rd and 4th stringers are going to get snapped up after cuts.

Every fanbase in the league believes their WR depth is such that there are multiple receivers who will be snatched up after cuts. (Even Patriots* fans!) But, I think the truth is that when you're looking that far down the depth chart, teams are more comfortable with the guys that have learned their playbook, and system, and are adequate in ST-- even if there are options on the waiver wire that are a little bit better.

[NickelCity]

Shorter seems like a redshirt candidate. Those pesky hamstrings...

[Process]

Keep him as #6 over Shorter. Shorter, who hasn't shown anything, goes to the PS.

 

Or better yet just keep all 7 guys.