Good Night / Bad Night - Pre-season game 1

[Nephilim17]

@Shaw66I agree with much if not all of what you're saying. McDermott is not thinking about long-term contracts when deciding whom to start.

 

I was simply pointing out that your one comment in isolation from your main argument — that losing Milano is as big of a risk as losing Morse — didn't make sense to me. What did you mean by "losing" MIlano is the same risk as losing Morse?

 

Your response is more about your general argument than addressing my very finite question. I agree with your big argument.

[eball]

45 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It's not accurate.    He had 3 drops on just 27 targets.  The 3rd being a huge one in the WC game that literally flipped the momentum from 3 score blowout in progress to a tie game 2 minutes later.    For reference Gabe Davis had 9 drops on 93 targets which was among the league's very worst.   So basically the same level of reliability as that.

 

Ok thanks.  I remember the bomb against the Fish that looked like a tough catch but I understand calling it a drop.

 

It's weird how Gabe's drop percentage has gone from 4.8% to 7.9% to 9.7% over his three years in the league.  That suggests to me it's not his hands but something else...injury distractions?

 

[Beck Water]

23 hours ago, Slippery Rubber Mats said:

1:00 - Easy throw, wide open man, knew where to put it in

1:10 - Here's the arm strength, he zipped this in there

 

This could just be me, but while I agree on the arm strength, I thought that throw to Shakir was dangerous.  A good catch by Shakir, but dangerous.

 

I actually wondered at the time if he'd been targeting Quintin Morris, who is behind Shakir and more open/safer throw.  Morris seemed to think it was coming to him?  Shakir had to climb the ladder and go up a bit for that throw, and if he'd tipped it, it had 2 guys ready to pick it and 2 more converging.  It either needed to be lower (if intended for Shakir) or higher (if intended for Morris).  In my opinion.

 

23 hours ago, Slippery Rubber Mats said:

2:00 - Another on target short throw for YAC. knew where to put it

2:26 - Missile. Barkley can't make this throw

 

Fair is fair, those are very nice throws, and you're right that Barkley doesn't have the arm for them.

 

There's a reason McDermott described the first half QBing as "hot and cold" not uniform "we need to do better".  Kyle Allen did make some nice plays, but he also made some stinkers.  The 2:26 throw to Ateman was placed where his very first throw to Sherfield should have been placed, but wasn't, for example.

 

23 hours ago, Slippery Rubber Mats said:

Let's be fair here. Allen has tools that he can use. He needs to get the system down though, no doubt

 

I'm not sure it's just mastering the system, it's also his pocket sense, his judgement, and possibly his aim at times.
I don't want to pick on the guy, but this play. (2:01 if it doesn't index).  Seems he never once looks to the L side of the field, where Harty (I think) stops and turns to get open.  Morris appears to be coming open with a step on his guy across the middle (isn't he throwing the mail flag up?), but Allen doesn't see him because he's turned his back and flees - right into pressure from the Colts DE 97.  THEN HE THROWS IT UP!  to Murray instead of throwing it past him OOB.  Awful awful play.

You're right of course, that he does have some physical tools.  

 

The thing that bothered me most about Kyle Allen wasn't what happened on the field, it was the combination of his play on the field and his responses afterwards in the interview.  Describing his performance as "smooth" and saying he was pretty "happy with it". 

 

Then when he was asked about playing behind a rotating cast on OL, he made some comment  about "I've been in the league 6 years, I'm used to it".  Oh?  Then why did you lock on Sherfield and almost get your first pass picked off, throwing before anyone else had completed a route on 3rd and 3?  The contrast was "Yikes" - it came across as totally lacking self-awareness.

 

And I say this as one that was positive about the signing, I thought Allen had done some good things in Carolina when he got a chance to start, and also in Washington before he broke and dislocated his ankle.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[Shaw66]

28 minutes ago, Nephilim17 said:

@Shaw66I agree with much if not all of what you're saying. McDermott is not thinking about long-term contracts when deciding whom to start.

 

I was simply pointing out that your one comment in isolation from your main argument — that losing Milano is as big of a risk as losing Morse — didn't make sense to me. What did you mean by "losing" MIlano is the same risk as losing Morse?

 

Your response is more about your general argument than addressing my very finite question. I agree with your big argument.

What I meant was that the risk of losing Milano due to injury in the upcoming season is as big as the risk of losing Morse.   I demonstrate that in my response to you - Morse's history of staying in the lineup is actually better than Milano's.   So, if the reason McDermott started Bates at center was to prepare the backup in case Morse got injured, it would be even more important to start Williams over Milano.   Milano historically is a bigger risk, and Williams is less experienced in the job than Bates.   So, why didn't they start Williams?   Because it's more important to get the first team ready for the season than it is to get the backups ready for possibly moving into the starting lineup.  If that's true, and I think it is, then the reason Bates got to play center was NOT because he's the backup there.  The reason was they wanted to give the guy who's winning the positional battle the practice with the starters.   They need to get Torrence ready for the Jets, and the way to do that is to play him with the 1s against the best players the Colts put on the field.  

[CookieG]

11 hours ago, Ralonzo said:

 

Focused on the trenches for the first half rewatch. If not Torrence, then Eli Ankou was the best Bill on the field. For all the Poona Ford hype he got rekt 2 out of every 3 plays. Ankou was disruptive constantly.

I loved the 2nd series, when it was 3rd and 1 and then 4th and 1.  Ankou stood up Q Nelson on both plays.  On the 3rd and 1 play, Poona crushed the left side of the Colts' OL. On the 4th down play, he held his own.

 

I did smile after the 3rd down play, where Boogie took an inside move and blew by rookie Blake Freeland to make the stop.  I smiled because I watched him in the Senior Bowl practices and don't remember seeing anyone get beat so consistently to an inside move.  The guy is going to have a short career if he doesn't fix that.

 

 

[BBFL]

The simplest way to look at it is the best. In terms of being brought in, whether through free agency (UFA included) or through the draft, who played themselves in and out of a job or a role here…

 

WR is absolutely tough to pin point after that game. A lot of new faces had decent spells throughout the game. Same goes with the secondary. For the most part a lot of those guys played well; Jamarcus Ingram  & Zayne Anderson (at least to me from what I saw).
 

Regarding DBs what’s going on with that Austin kid from OSU? 

 

Back to the initial point that many have made, Kyle Allen was brought in to be the backup to Josh and frankly he’s playing himself out of that role. @Beck Water said it best: his play coupled with the delusion of how he viewed it is concerning, especially for the importance of his role as a back up on a quality NFL team. 

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, BBFL said:

 

Back to the initial point that many have made, Kyle Allen was brought in to be the backup to Josh and frankly he’s playing himself out of that role. @Beck Water said it best: his play coupled with the delusion of how he viewed it is concerning, especially for the importance of his role as a back up on a quality NFL team. 

I wrote in the thread about Allen that he needs time.  And you're not the first to comment about his "delusion."

 

I doubt he's delusional.   I think we're the ones who are delusional.   First, backups are not starters.   At almost every other position, you want your backup to be starter quality, and you'll take the risk of losing as soon as he becomes a free agent.  But it isn't sustainable to have a starter quality backup at QB.  That's the Trubisky model, and if you do that you just have a series of one-and-dones.  And you can't find the right guy, year after year.  You need a guy who has proved he isn't starter quality but who can play in the league.  That's Kyle Allen.  There are no teams who want him as their starter, even though he's flashed some talent from time to time. 

 

It's also delusional on our part to think that his own observations about how he played are somehow wrong.   Kyle Allen knows exactly what is expected of him this season, and he knows exactly what was expected of him in that game.   How do I know?   Because McDermott's system is one where the coaches are very clear with each player about what's expected of him.   This was his very first time trying to execute this offense in true live action, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Bills set very clear expectations for him, expectations that did not include having a passer rating over 100.   The expectations likely were things like get the players in and out of the huddle, make the play calls correctly, get the team set at the line of scrimmage, audible as necessary.  I don't know that as a fact, but it's something we've often heard coaches say about QBs who are new to a team (more often, not not exclusively, rookies).   So, Allen may very well have been correct when he said things went smoothly.   

 

I think he may be the perfect long-term backup for this team:  he already understands that his future most probably is not as a starter, he has arm strength and leg strength that means he can make the plays that a modern NFL offense requires of QBs (although he can't make them consistently enough), he has the opportunity to play with his friend and play on a winner.  I think all of that means that the objective is to continue to grow him as the backup, maybe even to the point where he replaces Barkley as the player-coach in the QB room.  

[ColoradoBills]

Great write up Gunner.

 

First, I have to comment on McDermott and the DC role.  I liked the D look.  I liked the added aggressiveness.  I know it will cause some

big plays against the D and adds pressure for the secondary but I like the overall approach.  The run D looked very good.  Looking forward

to the next 2 preseason games to see what is called.

 

Kyle Allen has disappointed me so far.  I was pretty confident that his play on a team with this type of organization would have helped him.

Doesn't seem to be going the way I hoped.  It will be interesting who starts with the 2's after Josh has his snaps next game.

I get the feeling it will still be Kyle, but he has to perform like he knows what he's doing.

 

This week of practice and the game this weekend should give us a pretty good idea how the competition spots are going.

 

Overall, it was a good preseason game for the Bills.  They used the game the way it is designed to be used.

Go Bills.

[BBFL]

16 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I wrote in the thread about Allen that he needs time.  And you're not the first to comment about his "delusion."

 

I doubt he's delusional.   I think we're the ones who are delusional.   First, backups are not starters.   At almost every other position, you want your backup to be starter quality, and you'll take the risk of losing as soon as he becomes a free agent.  But it isn't sustainable to have a starter quality backup at QB.  That's the Trubisky model, and if you do that you just have a series of one-and-dones.  And you can't find the right guy, year after year.  You need a guy who has proved he isn't starter quality but who can play in the league.  That's Kyle Allen.  There are no teams who want him as their starter, even though he's flashed some talent from time to time. 

 

It's also delusional on our part to think that his own observations about how he played are somehow wrong.   Kyle Allen knows exactly what is expected of him this season, and he knows exactly what was expected of him in that game.   How do I know?   Because McDermott's system is one where the coaches are very clear with each player about what's expected of him.   This was his very first time trying to execute this offense in true live action, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Bills set very clear expectations for him, expectations that did not include having a passer rating over 100.   The expectations likely were things like get the players in and out of the huddle, make the play calls correctly, get the team set at the line of scrimmage, audible as necessary.  I don't know that as a fact, but it's something we've often heard coaches say about QBs who are new to a team (more often, not not exclusively, rookies).   So, Allen may very well have been correct when he said things went smoothly.   

 

I think he may be the perfect long-term backup for this team:  he already understands that his future most probably is not as a starter, he has arm strength and leg strength that means he can make the plays that a modern NFL offense requires of QBs (although he can't make them consistently enough), he has the opportunity to play with his friend and play on a winner.  I think all of that means that the objective is to continue to grow him as the backup, maybe even to the point where he replaces Barkley as the player-coach in the QB room.  

Smooth isn’t my point of contention.  It can’t be delusional for a fan to think it’s an issue that a guy who was “happy with it (his performance” when he was overthrowing he targets, unable to go through reads consistently and be in a shambles the majority of the time he was in the pocket under pressure. I’m not advocating he’s horrible just that how important the backup roll on a team of this quality is. 
 

Sure it’s a new system and there’s room for him to grow and learn but the point is this… The guy didn’t play great but in talking about his playing time did nothing to allude that things could have been better/some good, some bad/chalk it up as a learning process… Etc. 

 

THAT is delusion. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by BBFL

[Slippery Rubber Mats]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

This could just be me, but while I agree on the arm strength, I thought that throw to Shakir was dangerous.  A good catch by Shakir, but dangerous.

 

I actually wondered at the time if he'd been targeting Quintin Morris, who is behind Shakir and more open/safer throw.  Morris seemed to think it was coming to him?  Shakir had to climb the ladder and go up a bit for that throw, and if he'd tipped it, it had 2 guys ready to pick it and 2 more converging.  It either needed to be lower (if intended for Shakir) or higher (if intended for Morris).  In my opinion.

 

 

Fair is fair, those are very nice throws, and you're right that Barkley doesn't have the arm for them.

 

There's a reason McDermott described the first half QBing as "hot and cold" not uniform "we need to do better".  Kyle Allen did make some nice plays, but he also made some stinkers.  The 2:26 throw to Ateman was placed where his very first throw to Sherfield should have been placed, but wasn't, for example.

 

 

I'm not sure it's just mastering the system, it's also his pocket sense, his judgement, and possibly his aim at times.
I don't want to pick on the guy, but this play. (2:01 if it doesn't index).  Seems he never once looks to the L side of the field, where Harty (I think) stops and turns to get open.  Morris appears to be coming open with a step on his guy across the middle (isn't he throwing the mail flag up?), but Allen doesn't see him because he's turned his back and flees - right into pressure from the Colts DE 97.  THEN HE THROWS IT UP!  to Murray instead of throwing it past him OOB.  Awful awful play.

You're right of course, that he does have some physical tools.  

 

The thing that bothered me most about Kyle Allen wasn't what happened on the field, it was the combination of his play on the field and his responses afterwards in the interview.  Describing his performance as "smooth" and saying he was pretty "happy with it". 

 

Then when he was asked about playing behind a rotating cast on OL, he made some comment  about "I've been in the league 6 years, I'm used to it".  Oh?  Then why did you lock on Sherfield and almost get your first pass picked off, throwing before anyone else had completed a route on 3rd and 3?  The contrast was "Yikes" - it came across as totally lacking self-awareness.

 

And I say this as one that was positive about the signing, I thought Allen had done some good things in Carolina when he got a chance to start, and also in Washington before he broke and dislocated his ankle.

 

Agreed mostly except the part about the comments. I don't mind anything he said. Good post

[Simon Says]

Cook might very well be "RB1" but I think his workload will be managed. Maybe 12-15 touches per game, at most. 12 carries and 3 receptions for example.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, CookieG said:

I loved the 2nd series, when it was 3rd and 1 and then 4th and 1.  Ankou stood up Q Nelson on both plays.  On the 3rd and 1 play, Poona crushed the left side of the Colts' OL. On the 4th down play, he held his own.

 

I did smile after the 3rd down play, where Boogie took an inside move and blew by rookie Blake Freeland to make the stop.  I smiled because I watched him in the Senior Bowl practices and don't remember seeing anyone get beat so consistently to an inside move.  The guy is going to have a short career if he doesn't fix that.

 

 

 

Agree on Freelund. I said to someone here pre-draft that I thought on his film he was a late day 2 early day 3 guy. Watching him at the Senior Bowl I thought he was borderline undraftable and anything before round 5 was way too rich for my blood.

[Shaw66]

23 minutes ago, BBFL said:

Smooth isn’t my point of contention.  It can’t be delusional for a fan to think it’s an issue that a guy who was “happy with it (his performance” when he was overthrowing he targets, unable to go through reads consistently and be in a shambles the majority of the time he was in the pocket under pressure. I’m not advocating he’s horrible just that how important the backup roll on a team of this quality is. 
 

Sure it’s a new system and there’s room for him to grow and learn but the point is this… The guy didn’t play great but in talking about his playing time did nothing to allude that things could have been better/some good, some bad/chalk it up as a learning process… Etc. 

 

THAT is delusion. 

I don't agree.   You were unhappy with his play.  So were a lot of other people.   But you don't know what his objectives were for the game.  You don't know what the Bills' coaches told him what they expected him to show on the field.  

 

The Bills don't game plan this game, and you don't know what the Colts did on defense that Allen hasn't seen all summer long.  All he's been doing is practicing against the Bills' defense, and so he's been prepared for tendencies that may be completely different from what the Colts were doing.    Maybe his INT was against a defense he hasn't seen all summer.  If that's true, he understands that and you and I don't.  During the regular season, every week he will be preparing for the defense he'll see that week if he's called on to play.   He understands that.   

 

You and I tend to look at what we see on the field and his stats and decide he's a disaster.   You may say, "well, just look at what he did."   But watch video of him playing in the regular season: most of the time he doesn't look at all like that.   That leads me to believe that there are other explanations for what you saw on Saturday, and other explanations for what he said in his presser.  

[Beck Water]

9 minutes ago, Slippery Rubber Mats said:

 

Agreed mostly except the part about the comments. I don't mind anything he said. Good post

 

It ultimately doesn't matter what he says to the press after the game, but it matters if he's self-aware and self-critical enough that he can realistically evaluate his own performance.   Can we agree that what he said, did not indicate that self-awareness?

 

As a counter point, I do acknowledge that players don't owe the press to be self-critical in public, and in theory a guy can be all "I was happy with it" in public and able to see all the flaws in private.

 

 

[Slippery Rubber Mats]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

It ultimately doesn't matter what he says to the press after the game, but it matters if he's self-aware and self-critical enough that he can realistically evaluate his own performance.   Can we agree that what he said, did not indicate that self-awareness?

 

As a counter point, I do acknowledge that players don't owe the press to be self-critical in public, and in theory a guy can be all "I was happy with it" in public and able to see all the flaws in private.

 

 

 

Your counter point is exactly why I don't care, and I agree with that. But really no, I don't agree he came of as non-self-aware. They are just throwaway comments to me

[Beck Water]

4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't agree.   You were unhappy with his play.  So were a lot of other people.   But you don't know what his objectives were for the game.  You don't know what the Bills' coaches told him what they expected him to show on the field. 

 

Shaw, I love you and you say a lot of good stuff many times with very valid points.

 

But you acknowledge you didn't watch the game, so before saying any more about "we don't know his objectives for the game, what the coaches told him, etc etc" you really need to watch the game - or at least, the NFL film of the COLTS highlights/best plays.

 

There is absolutely no freakin' way that the coaches expectations or objectives (or Allen's) align with some of the stuff we saw.  Nopenope, none.

Just now, Slippery Rubber Mats said:

 

Your counter point is exactly why I don't care, and I agree with that. But really no, I don't agree he came of as non-self-aware. They are just throwaway comments to me

 

And that's fair.  Provided we can agree that he could have made other comments that did indicate more self-awareness and accountability, and he didn't.

[BBFL]

17 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't agree.   You were unhappy with his play.  So were a lot of other people.   But you don't know what his objectives were for the game.  You don't know what the Bills' coaches told him what they expected him to show on the field.  

 

The Bills don't game plan this game, and you don't know what the Colts did on defense that Allen hasn't seen all summer long.  All he's been doing is practicing against the Bills' defense, and so he's been prepared for tendencies that may be completely different from what the Colts were doing.    Maybe his INT was against a defense he hasn't seen all summer.  If that's true, he understands that and you and I don't.  During the regular season, every week he will be preparing for the defense he'll see that week if he's called on to play.   He understands that.   

 

You and I tend to look at what we see on the field and his stats and decide he's a disaster.   You may say, "well, just look at what he did."   But watch video of him playing in the regular season: most of the time he doesn't look at all like that.   That leads me to believe that there are other explanations for what you saw on Saturday, and other explanations for what he said in his presser.  

I don’t judge and form an opinion solely from everything on the field. Having played sports on a pro-am level I am well aware there is good days and bad days and that the execution of what was planned or hoped for doesn’t always go into effect. My concern is that he was nonchalantly pleased with a lackluster performance. 
 

It is what it is. You see nothing wrong with the performance coupled with his talks. I see a problem with how he views his own performance. Nothing more. Nothing less. 

[Slippery Rubber Mats]

28 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

 

And that's fair.  Provided we can agree that he could have made other comments that did indicate more self-awareness and accountability, and he didn't.

 

Self aware? No, I simply don't agree. More openly critical of himself to the media? Sure but some players just don't come off that way to the press. Nothing burger IMO.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Slippery Rubber Mats

[BearNorth]

I know we are close to being in cap "jail" but after Kyle Allen's performance on Saturday, should we be kicking the tires on Wentz?  I don't think Matty Ice fits the Bills offense with his lack of mobility.  Those are the only two FA QB's that have done anything.

[Beck Water]

15 minutes ago, BearNorth said:

I know we are close to being in cap "jail" but after Kyle Allen's performance on Saturday, should we be kicking the tires on Wentz?  I don't think Matty Ice fits the Bills offense with his lack of mobility.  Those are the only two FA QB's that have done anything.

 

How is Chase Daniel still in the league at age 37, having dressed for 74 games and started 5?

 

But I digress.  I would say "no" to Wentz.  I don't think he has the backup mindset yet, and I feel that if Reich couldn't return him to a successful QB mindset it can't be done.

 

It's possible that the coaches could address what went wrong with Kyle Allen and he could show improvement in the next couple preseason games.  If not, there will be QB available for trade or as cuts closer to the regular season.