Good Night / Bad Night - Pre-season game 1

[GunnerBill]

Back by absolutely no popular acclaim it's Gunner's pre-season good night bad night thread. A sort of "Sal's arrow up / arrow down" but for the thinking man . The Bills made it 11 wins from their last 12 pre-season outings with victory over the Colts but what did it mean for those position groups and players where questions abound. Here's my take:

 

 

Good Night for...

 

The Running Backs - First things first, this is James Cook's job. All the "he can't be an RB1" naysayers are about to be proven wrong. Not only did he have a touchdown run on a nicely set up and executed (loved Trent Sherfield's block) outside rush but he showed nice burst and toughness running inside on a couple of plays too. I think he has better vision than the guy he is replacing and while I am fine with giving him a few snaps with Josh just to make sure they have mesh points down etc, I don't need to see much more of him this pre-season. Behind Cook Latavius Murray (whose roster spot has felt safe since a jet ski took care of Nyheim Hines' knee) took advantage of Damien Harris's absence to show he still has some burst in those old legs and Jordan Mims (highlighted in my sleepers thread before the draft) took his opportunity too. He might have only averaged 3.3 yards per carry, but he had a couple of nice bursts and a catch and run that showed his natural feel as a receiving back. He isn't a breakaway speed home run hitter but his vision really stands out and he sees the right gap instinctively. I don't think he will make the 53 but if the Bills are able to sneak him through to the PS he is someone more than able to step in if Harris's injury troubles catch up to him again. 

 

O'Cyrus Torrence - I think this competition is over guys. The job is won. O'Cyrus Torrence got the start at right guard after battling Ryan Bates in camp and he took every snap with the first team unit and then stayed in there for a couple of drives with the second team. Bates played exclusively as the second team center. And boy did Cryus take the opportunity. He was a significant part of the Bills' early run game success. He moves people at the point of attack and while tougher tests will lie ahead in pass protection this was a really impressive first outing. Isn't impossible that the Bills revert to Bates at guard week 2, but I think it is trending strongly towards the rookie being the guy. 

 

Boogie Basham - The one place where I think the Bills are guaranteed to cut someone who makes another NFL roster this season is defensive line. They have 5 proven vet tackles (Jones, Oliver, Phillips, Settle, Ford) and 6 proved vet edge players (Von, Groot, AJE, Floyd, Boogie and Shaq). I don't think they can keep 11. Shaq is the "easiest" cut of those but he has played a very specific role for the Bills in the past as an edge setting end and so I was leaning towards Boogie maybe being traded. But he was active yesterday, made a couple of nice run stops and had a sack. He hasn't flashed much in camp so it was a performance he needed. 

 

Ryan Van Demark - The former UConn tackle came into the NFL as an UDFA of the Colts last year, but after being let go in final cuts declined an offer to join the Colts Practice Squad in order to join the Bills. After a year on the practice squad I have seen Astro's camp reports mention him a couple of times as a guy who has had some run with the 2nd team O Line in camp. Yesterday he was the left tackle on the 2nd line for the first drive that line was in. Then Quess replaced him but he came back as the left tackle of the 3rd line, switching to the right side when the luckless Tommy Doyle got hurt. It's fair to say tackle depth behind the starters is a question on this roster, but Van Demark looked good at both spots last night, and if there is a player who I would have told you a week ago had no shot at the 53 that I'm now seeing a path for - he is the guy!

 

The bottom of the roster receivers - Where do we stand receiver wise? Diggs, Davis and Sherfield are locks based on camp reports and pre-season usage. I think based on contract and skillset Harty is a lock too. Shakir is close to a lock but not quite there. He had two nice plays last night and then an awful drop on a potential 3rd down conversion. After that there is a a spot to shoot for. I thought Shorter might have the inside track given draft status and special teams but I am pretty sure he didn't get first run as a gunner last night (I think Ingram was one and I presumed Neal was the other.... but the useless new gamepass international doesn't have the full game replay up yet so I can't double check). He also had zero targets in the pass game though I think was mainly out there with Kyle Allen. The guys who flashed were Andy Isabella, Tyrell Shavers, KeeSeanJohnson, Marcell Ateman and Dezmon Patmon who finshed as the Bills five leading receivers on the day. All of those except Shavers are former draft picks of other NFL teams so Shavers might be the most intriguing as an untapped potential guy but he did get hands on (and should have caught) the ball what went for a pick 6. Essentially I think that there might still be a battle on for the Bills' 6th receiver spot. 

 

 

Bad Night for...

 

Kyle Allen - Wow he was bad. Allen made a couple of nice throws but generally he just looked so uncomfortable back there. It looked like a guy who doesn't understand the offense, doesn't understand his reads and has no feel for the position. His feet were never settled, he was constantly moving even in pretty good pockets and twice he actually moved himself into pressure when if he stayed where he was and kept his eyes downfield he had oodles of time to make a throw. He played frenzied like a guy for whom it was all happening too quickly. The interception was mainly on him. Sure, Shavers should have caught it, but he threw a 5 yard receiver screen 3 yards off target. How the ***** is that possible? He was horrible. Not helped by the fact that as soon as Barkley stepped in he immediately looked comfortable, was just dropping back, executing reads and getting the ball out of his hands. Okay Allen played against starters and 2nd teamers; Barkley played against 2nd teamers and 3rd teamers but Allen was 8/15 with an INT and Barkley was 14/15 with 2 TDs. At the moment Kyle Allen is the 3rd best Quarterback on the roster.

 

Kaiir Elam - Not so much that Elam was awful, he wasn't. He got called on one defensive PI that I thought was a little ticky tacky. There was a little grab and by the letter of course that is a penalty, but he left go before the ball arrived and in pre-season not sure that needed to be called. But Dane Jackson got the start and in his 1 series had an interception. They then brought Elam in for the second series with the 1s and while I think that means the competition is still live (contrast their approach at MLB and RG the other two big competition spots in camp) the fact that Elam then stayed on the field throughout the 2s run suggests to me that it is a competition he is behind in. They never switched Jackson back in which says to me they are happy they know what they have there. Unless Elam starts next week I think we can start to call time on this competition. 

 

Ike Boettger - Man that was a tough watch. I have been an Ike guy since the Bills picked him up as an UDFA out of Iowa back in 2018. He was a classic Iowa lineman, tough and well coached technically even if he lacked the physical attributes to stand out. And in 2020 (in particular) he played really well for the Bills as a starter for much of the year. He was then a serviceable backup in 2021 before breaking his ankle late in the year. And while he played a handful of snaps at the end of the blow out in Chicago last year this was his first proper run since and he just does not look the same guy. He could barely move out there, didn't seem to have any confidence pushing off the ankle at all and was beaten on multiple plays. Maybe it was just a bad night, but it does kinda reflect what we have heard from camp. I suspect he is going to be a painful cut for the organisation when the time comes. I am told he is a really popular guy in the locker room. 

 

Jace Sternberger - It was really interesting to note that the Bills ran a TON of 12 personnel with the 1st team offense and the 2nd team offense last night. Again once the full game replay is up I'll try and go back and count but I reckon it was something like 60% of their snaps with the first two units. Kincaid and Knox were out there together and the Quintin Morris and Joel Wilson were the combo for the second unit. That means Sternberger is 5th of 5 on the depth chart and when he got his shot he caught a nice pass, and immediately had it knocked out for a fumble. I was excited about his addition given his USFL success and the fact I liked him coming out of Texas A&M in that same draft as Knox. But he faces a major uphill battle to make the team now and even the PS doesn't seem a guarantee. 

 

The Linebacker Shuffle - As expected Tyrel Dodson got the start at MLB. He did okay in the run game, was in on a couple of tackles, but he didn't inspire much confidence with his zone drops against the pass. He looked a bit like what he is. A backup level player who isn't a liability out there but is noticeably not at the level of much of the supporting cast. He was at least calling the defense when he was out there by the looks of it. He played through with the second unit as well with Dorian Williams who flashed his closing speed and coverage ability in the pass game but also showed with his run fits and taking on of blocks exactly why the Bills have quickly ruled him out of the conversation at MIKE. AJ Klein was the next man through after Dodson and again, looked what he is... an older less athletic guy who is okay moving vertically but struggles moving laterally. At the moment both options in the middle look like compromises. Braylon Spector got some late run with the 3s but was erratic in his play and if he makes this roster he makes it for special teams only. It might have been a good night for Terrel Bernard by virtue of him not playing. 

 

 

Fire away guys.... thoughts, comments, questions always welcome. I will be back with another of these after pre-season game 2!!

 

Edited August 13, 2023 by GunnerBill

[PrimeTime101]

Elam shined when it was bump and run and when asked to take on someone at the los, he did very well. I think he pinched on a HB very well to,  Dane and that INT might of locked it up for him but for me, Elam still shows lots of promise. 

 

MLB SMH i dont even know where to start.

 

And did Barkley just take over the #2 QB? That was rough. I do think Kyle just lost his #2 spot... And I think we should consider bringing in another backup for maybe a 6th rounder just to have a look at another player...

 

Cook looked fantastic! had another running play called back on a hold I think it was but yea... Cook looked uh.. scarry.

 

Shakir might be a lost cause if he cant cure the dropsies... fast.

[Son of a K-Gun]

I’ll add that Elam made a play when he had Anthony Richardson barreling down on him one-on-one with a head of steam.  Nothing flashy, just held his position and made the play with help arriving quickly.  He was giving up a lot of size on that play and his run defense was a criticism this time last year, so nice to see some development.

[Dave_Bills]

Boettger was a touch watch. He’s been a good soldier but that was rough

[Lost]

Good assessment Gunner.

 

18 minutes ago, Son of a K-Gun said:

I’ll add that Elam made a play when he had Anthony Richardson barreling down on him one-on-one with a head of steam.  Nothing flashy, just held his position and made the play with help arriving quickly.  He was giving up a lot of size on that play and his run defense was a criticism this time last year, so nice to see some development.

 

I thought Elam's tackling has been quietly improved so far this offseason if that was a knock on him.   He needs to get the hands under control though.  McD seemed visibly frustrated with the sloppiness and penalties yesterday. 

 

Speaking of tackling.  Loved seeing how Damar was getting right into plays and making tackles with no hesitation, pretty amazing.   

 

 I want to see more Dorian Williams next week and also how well Kincaid holds up blocking in the run game or matched up in press coverage. 

 

I don't ever want to see Kyle Allen on the field again.

[strive_for_five_guy]

Gunner - Thanks for the write-up, has to miss the game here.  You don’t mention Evans at RB.  You see him making PS too, or just cut altogether?

 

And you bring up Boogie being traded.  I agree they should be trying to trade one of these edge guys if they can, since they all can’t make the squad.  Have you considered AJE being the trade candidate instead of Basham, given there’s an extra year on Basham’s rookie contract?  If the Bills don’t think they’ll be able to re-sign AJE next season, might as well try and get even a late round pick for him now.

[muppy]

Bills first preseason game cliff notes for easy reference which I do appreciate.

 

I wasn't able to view the game but this tells me your astute opinion.  Hope springs eternal the cream does indeed rise to the top

 

Go Bills!

[Dr. K]

7 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

How did O’Cyrus play?

You’re kidding, right? Gunner wrote a whole evaluation of him.

[nkreed]

7 minutes ago, Lost said:

Good assessment Gunner.

 

 

I thought Elam's tackling has been quietly improved so far this offseason if that was a knock on him.   He needs to get the hands under control though.  McD seemed visibly frustrated with the sloppiness and penalties yesterday. 

 

Speaking of tackling.  Loved seeing how Damar was getting right into plays and making tackles with no hesitation, pretty amazing.   

 

 I want to see more Dorian Williams next week and also how well Kincaid holds up blocking in the run game or matched up in press coverage. 

 

I don't ever want to see Kyle Allen on the field again.

The only time I noticed Kincaid in the game was a terrible attempt at a block when lined up in line. He totally whiffed and his assignment tackled the RB in the backfield. (Can't remember when but he was on Left side of line)

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

55 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

The bottom of the roster receivers - Where do we stand receiver wise? Diggs, Davis and Sherfield are locks based on camp reports and pre-season usage. I think based on contract and skillset Harty is a lock too. Shakir is close to a lock but not quite there. He had two nice plays last night and then an awful drop on a potential 3rd down conversion. After that there is a a spot to shoot for. I thought Shorter might have the inside track given draft status and special teams but I am pretty sure he didn't get first run as a gunner last night (I think Ingram was one and I presumed Neal was the other.... but the useless new gamepass international doesn't have the full game replay up yet so I can't double check). He also had zero targets in the pass game though I think was mainly out there with Kyle Allen. The guys who flashed were Andy Isabella, Tyrell Shavers, KeeSeanJohnson, Marcell Ateman and Dezmon Patmon who finshed as the Bills five leading receivers on the day. All of those except Shavers are former draft picks of other NFL teams so Shavers might be the most intriguing as an untapped potential guy but he did get hands on (and should have caught) the ball what went for a pick 6. Essentially I think that there might still be a battle on for the Bills' 6th receiver spot. 

 

 

 

 

If Isabella is able to claim a spot on the 53, do you think either of Shorter or Shakir could be safely stashed on the practice squad? 

 

Will this current Bills team ever keep 7 WR's? Is this a year they could? 

[Royale with Cheese]

5 minutes ago, Dr. K said:

You’re kidding, right? Gunner wrote a whole evaluation of him.

No he didn’t.  He just said he took all the first team snaps and feels the competition is over.  I’m looking for how he looked while on the field.

[Chaos]

6 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Shorter or Shakir could be safely stashed on the practice squad?

Shorter could. Shakir would be gone instantly.  

[RichRiderBills]

As of now, I think Shaver or Isabella is going to be that last WR slot. 

 

Shorterer behind the 8 ball. 

[Dr. K]

13 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

No he didn’t.  He just said he took all the first team snaps and feels the competition is over.  I’m looking for how he looked while on the field.

"He was a significant part of the Bills' early run game success. He moves people at the point of attack and while tougher tests will lie ahead in pass protection this was a really impressive first outing."

 

[Shaw66]

Thanks, Gunner. 

 

Any observations on McGovern and Rapp?

[RichRiderBills]

My ultimate take from our lower depth chart WRs doing so good is it was testament to how Barkley played. He was en Fuego. Would have been even better behind better lineman. 

 

That being said also loved Dezmond Patmon. 

Edited August 13, 2023 by RichRiderBills

[benderbender]

Kaiir was just watching Sauce Gardner highlights and can't understand why the refs don't swallow the whistle for him.

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

43 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

How did O’Cyrus play?

Did you actually read it?

[Royale with Cheese]

9 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Hangover? 

LOL…I see it now.

 

The sentence before the write up was “Bates played exclusively at 2nd team center…”  So I thought he was talking about Bates with the write up.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[SectionC3]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

Back by absolutely no popular acclaim it's Gunner's pre-season good night bad night thread. A sort of "Sal's arrow up / arrow down" but for the thinking man . The Bills made it 11 wins from their last 12 pre-season outings with victory over the Colts but what did it mean for those position groups and players where questions abound. Here's my take:

 

 

Good Night for...

 

The Running Backs - First things first, this is James Cook's job. All the "he can't be an RB1" naysayers are about to be proven wrong. Not only did he have a touchdown run on a nicely set up and executed (loved Trent Sherfield's block) outside rush but he showed nice burst and toughness running inside on a couple of plays too. I think he has better vision than the guy he is replacing and while I am fine with giving him a few snaps with Josh just to make sure they have mesh points down etc, I don't need to see much more of him this pre-season. Behind Cook Latavius Murray (whose roster spot has felt safe since a jet ski took care of Nyheim Hines' knee) took advantage of Damien Harris's absence to show he still has some burst in those old legs and Jordan Mims (highlighted in my sleepers thread before the draft) took his opportunity too. He might have only averaged 3.3 yards per carry, but he had a couple of nice bursts and a catch and run that showed his natural feel as a receiving back. He isn't a breakaway speed home run hitter but his vision really stands out and he sees the right gap instinctively. I don't think he will make the 53 but if the Bills are able to sneak him through to the PS he is someone more than able to step in if Harris's injury troubles catch up to him again. 

 

O'Cyrus Torrence - I think this competition is over guys. The job is won. O'Cyrus Torrence got the start at right guard after battling Ryan Bates in camp and he took every snap with the first team unit and then stayed in there for a couple of drives with the second team. Bates played exclusively as the second team center. And boy did he take the opportunity. He was a significant part of the Bills' early run game success. He moves people at the point of attack and while tougher tests will lie ahead in pass protection this was a really impressive first outing. Isn't impossible that the Bills revert to Bates at guard week 2, but I think it is trending strongly towards the rookie being the guy. 

 

Boogie Basham - The one place where I think the Bills are guaranteed to cut someone who makes another NFL roster this season is defensive line. They have 5 proven vet tackles (Jones, Oliver, Phillips, Settle, Ford) and 6 proved vet edge players (Von, Groot, AJE, Floyd, Boogie and Shaq). I don't think they can keep 11. Shaq is the "easiest" cut of those but he has played a very specific role for the Bills in the past as an edge setting end and so I was leaning towards Boogie maybe being traded. But he was active yesterday, made a couple of nice run stops and had a sack. He hasn't flashed much in camp so it was a performance he needed. 

 

Ryan Van Demark - The former UConn tackle came into the NFL as an UDFA of the Colts last year, but after being let go in final cuts declined an offer to join the Colts Practice Squad in order to join the Bills. After a year on the practice squad I have seen Astro's camp reports mention him a couple of times as a guy who has had some run with the 2nd team O Line in camp. Yesterday he was the left tackle on the 2nd line for the first drive that line was in. Then Quess replaced him but he came back as the left tackle of the 3rd line, switching to the right side when the luckless Tommy Doyle got hurt. It's fair to say tackle depth behind the starters is a question on this roster, but Van Demark looked good at both spots last night, and if there is a player who I would have told you a week ago had no shot at the 53 that I'm now seeing a path for - he is the guy!

 

The bottom of the roster receivers - Where do we stand receiver wise? Diggs, Davis and Sherfield are locks based on camp reports and pre-season usage. I think based on contract and skillset Harty is a lock too. Shakir is close to a lock but not quite there. He had two nice plays last night and then an awful drop on a potential 3rd down conversion. After that there is a a spot to shoot for. I thought Shorter might have the inside track given draft status and special teams but I am pretty sure he didn't get first run as a gunner last night (I think Ingram was one and I presumed Neal was the other.... but the useless new gamepass international doesn't have the full game replay up yet so I can't double check). He also had zero targets in the pass game though I think was mainly out there with Kyle Allen. The guys who flashed were Andy Isabella, Tyrell Shavers, KeeSeanJohnson, Marcell Ateman and Dezmon Patmon who finshed as the Bills five leading receivers on the day. All of those except Shavers are former draft picks of other NFL teams so Shavers might be the most intriguing as an untapped potential guy but he did get hands on (and should have caught) the ball what went for a pick 6. Essentially I think that there might still be a battle on for the Bills' 6th receiver spot. 

 

 

Bad Night for...

 

Kyle Allen - Wow he was bad. Allen made a couple of nice throws but generally he just looked so uncomfortable back there. It looked like a guy who doesn't understand the offense, doesn't understand his reads and has no feel for the position. His feet were never settled, he was constantly moving even in pretty good pockets and twice he actually moved himself into pressure when if he stayed where he was and kept his eyes downfield he had oodles of time to make a throw. He played frenzied like a guy for whom it was all happening too quickly. The interception was mainly on him. Sure, Shavers should have caught it, but he threw a 5 yard receiver screen 3 yards off target. How the ***** is that possible? He was horrible. Not helped by the fact that as soon as Barkley stepped in he immediately looked comfortable, was just dropping back, executing reads and getting the ball out of his hands. Okay Allen played against starters and 2nd teamers; Barkley played against 2nd teamers and 3rd teamers but Allen was 8/15 with an INT and Barkley was 14/15 with 2 TDs. At the moment Kyle Allen is the 3rd best Quarterback on the roster.

 

Kaiir Elam - Not so much that Elam was awful, he wasn't. He got called on one defensive PI that I thought was a little ticky tacky. There was a little grab and by the letter of course that is a penalty, but he left go before the ball arrived and in pre-season not sure that needed to be called. But Dane Jackson got the start and in his 1 series had an interception. They then brought Elam in for the second series with the 1s and while I think that means the competition is still live (contrast their approach at MLB and RG the other two big competition spots in camp) the fact that Elam then stayed on the field throughout the 2s run suggests to me that it is a competition he is behind in. They never switched Jackson back in which says to me they are happy they know what they have there. Unless Elam starts next week I think we can start to call time on this competition. 

 

Ike Boettger - Man that was a tough watch. I have been an Ike guy since the Bills picked him up as an UDFA out of Iowa back in 2018. He was a classic Iowa lineman, tough and well coached technically even if he lacked the physical attributes to stand out. And in 2020 (in particular) he played really well for the Bills as a starter for much of the year. He was then a serviceable backup in 2021 before breaking his ankle late in the year. And while he played a handful of snaps at the end of the blow out in Chicago last year this was his first proper run since and he just does not look the same guy. He could barely move out there, didn't seem to have any confidence pushing off the ankle at all and was beaten on multiple plays. Maybe it was just a bad night, but it does kinda reflect what we have heard from camp. I suspect he is going to be a painful cut for the organisation when the time comes. I am told he is a really popular guy in the locker room. 

 

Jace Sternberger - It was really interesting to note that the Bills ran a TON of 12 personnel with the 1st team offense and the 2nd team offense last night. Again once the full game replay is up I'll try and go back and count but I reckon it was something like 60% of their snaps with the first two units. Kincaid and Knox were out there together and the Quintin Morris and Joel Wilson were the combo for the second unit. That means Sternberger is 5th of 5 on the depth chart and when he got his shot he caught a nice pass, and immediately had it knocked out for a fumble. I was excited about his addition given his USFL success and the fact I liked him coming out of Texas A&M in that same draft as Knox. But he faces a major uphill battle to make the team now and even the PS doesn't seem a guarantee. 

 

The Linebacker Shuffle - As expected Tyrel Dodson got the start at MLB. He did okay in the run game, was in on a couple of tackles, but he didn't inspire much confidence with his zone drops against the pass. He looked a bit like what he is. A backup level player who isn't a liability out there but is noticeably not at the level of much of the supporting cast. He was at least calling the defense when he was out there by the looks of it. He played through with the second unit as well with Dorian Williams who flashed his closing speed and coverage ability in the pass game but also showed with his run fits and taking on of blocks exactly why the Bills have quickly ruled him out of the conversation at MIKE. AJ Klein was the next man through after Dodson and again, looked what he is... an older less athletic guy who is okay moving vertically but struggles moving laterally. At the moment both options in the middle look like compromises. Braylon Spector got some late run with the 3s but was erratic in his play and if he makes this roster he makes it for special teams only. It might have been a good night for Terrel Bernard by virtue of him not playing. 

 

 

Fire away guys.... thoughts, comments, questions always welcome. I will be back with another of these after pre-season game 2!!

 

Kyle Allen looks to me like a guy who didn’t bother to put the time in learning the offense over the offseason.  The pick six was mutual responsibility.  Shavers should have caught it, but Kyle double clutched and threw it way too hard and wide (it doesn’t show on the TV feed, but in the stadium the whole thing looked like a disaster from double clutch to launch).  
 

Boettger, sadly, looks cooked.  
 

shavers has an NFL body but the hands .  Ateman played fast and flashed, as did Isabella.  I don’t think shorter is a lock by any stretch.  He might get the Hodgins treatment and redshirt for a year on IR.  

Edited August 13, 2023 by SectionC3