Training Camp - 8/9 - 9:45am

[JerseyBills]

18 minutes ago, Allen2Moulds said:

In order for sustained success, you have to stagger the talent. Ideally, if Gabe has a monster year and plays like a 1, you pay and keep him. As his cap number kicks in, in 2025, you should be drafting another WR to replace the aging Diggs, who at that point should be your number 2. Kind of like Atlanta did, drafting Julio to replace Roddy White.

Same with CB1/CB2.

Elam is suppose to supplant Tre, in 2 to 3 years, as Tre starts to fade, and Elam hits his prime. But of course if we miss, we are using more draft capital on the same positions again. 

I agree on everything except Diggs, I think with his lack of injury history and just the dog inside of him , he has 4 -5 dominant seasons left. He's a rare breed imo. Just like Von

4 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

 

 

That salt and pepper bit was awesome!!

[RoyBatty is alive]

31 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I understand.  But I can still wish I was reading better reports.  I'm hoping he is our day 1 starter and still has time to earn it.

 

It's just my thinking with how bad our line was last year, only one replacement with McGovern for Saffold...that doesn't give me a ton of confidence we will see very noticeable improvement.  I just really really want O'Cyrus to be get a hold of the RG position by the opener.

I also wish we were getting better reports but better going up and be schooled now by our quality D Lineman than a scrub in a pre-season game.  I will be shocked if O'Cyrus isnt a starting guard next year and on the way to be close to a consistent all pro, I am not going to get worried even before a pre-season game, same thing with Kincaid.

[Beck Water]

56 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

That's true about Jones

 

I always thought Hodgins was going to make the roster every year...might have gotten unlucky w injuries but seemed even to people on the outside he had enough talent to play

 

This is where Beane's principles about team building sometimes work against building the best offense.

 

It's a principle for him - he's said this in press conferences mutliple times - that if you're a backup WR on the Bills, you MUST play teams.

If you're a backup OLman on the Bills, you MUST have positional flexibility.

 

Well, Hodgins did not do well playing teams so it was Kumerow > Hodgins with ST "chops" factored in.  But it was pretty clear it was Hodgins > Kumerow as a WR.

 

I don't think it's accidental that both our WR draftee and our WR UDFA are noted for their ST chops as well as having receiving potential.

[K-9]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Beasley and Brown in 2020 absolutely…and even initially Sanders in 2021 before falling off a cliff and then Beasley being a shell of himself as well…. Who since then? The lack of investment has since caught up with them. Hopefully Kincaid is the answer right out the gate. 

Caught up to them? Really? From 3rd best passing offense, to 2nd, to 7th over the last three seasons isn’t exactly falling off a cliff. 

[Beck Water]

Sal Capaccio notes on camp

 

https://www.audacy.com/wgr550/sports/bills/cornerback-middle-linebacker-battles-still-too-tight-to-call?utm_campaign=sharebutton&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_term=WGRAM

 

Quote

Tyrel Dodson took most of the first-team reps at the MIKE linebacker spot during 11-on-11, but Terrel Bernard also saw time there.

At corner, it was a Dane Jackson who started off, but both Kaiir Elam and Christian Benford saw their fair share, as usual.

At both of those positions, the Bills listed all of those players atop the depth chart only separated by a slash.

 

That is also true, interestingly enough, of Harty/Shakir.  Beane said they saw Harty as slotting into their 4/5 role, but I would say he's now competing for 3.

 

Quote

As far as on-the-field play is concerned, the defense got the better of the offense on Wednesday, especially in the red zone period.

Other than one throw to the corner of the end zone to tight end Dawson Knox, Josh Allen couldn’t connect with receivers for various reasons.

On the very first play, terrific coverage forced Allen to throw low and incomplete as he tried to hit Stefon Diggs.

On another, James Cook slipped on his route, and the ball fell to the ground.

When the ball was handed off, a swarm of blue defensive jerseys surrounded running back Latavius Murray.

After Allen exited, backup quarterback Kyle Allen came in and on the very first throw, Khalil Shakir could not hold on to it as two defenders were closing very fast.

Two plays later, Kyle Allen was sacked.

The defense basically dominated that segment.

 

Quote

Then again...

Things turned around quickly for the offense when it became a full field 11-on-11.

On back-to-back plays to start that segment, Josh Allen found Knox, then Diggs on a deep ball down the sideline.

Later, on the first play of another 11-on-11, Allen found Knox again for a big gain.

 

I think Knox is having his best camp as a pro.

Rookie tight end Dalton Kincaid has looked every bit the part of what they’ve wanted, but Knox, seemingly the forgotten man at the spot, has been excellent at getting separation or finding the open spot in a zone and catching the ball.

He’s seeing a lot of targets because of that.

 

Iron sharpens Iron

Edited August 9, 2023 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

Did we see this one yet?
 

 

[GoBills808]

20 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

This is where Beane's principles about team building sometimes work against building the best offense.

 

It's a principle for him - he's said this in press conferences mutliple times - that if you're a backup WR on the Bills, you MUST play teams.

If you're a backup OLman on the Bills, you MUST have positional flexibility.

 

Well, Hodgins did not do well playing teams so it was Kumerow > Hodgins with ST "chops" factored in.  But it was pretty clear it was Hodgins > Kumerow as a WR.

 

I don't think it's accidental that both our WR draftee and our WR UDFA are noted for their ST chops as well as having receiving potential.

It's more on coaches than GM if you ask me

 

They're the ones seeing them everyday, and I doubt the ST edict is something Beane thought up himself

[Warcodered]

 

 

[Logic]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

We did draft first round receiver this year
He’s just extremely big receiver

He is not playing the X or Z position long term, though, which brings us back to what I just said about Gabe Davis.

They can line Kincaid up in the slot, in the backfield, or split him out wide. It doesn't change the fact that he's listed as a tight end and will continue to be listed as a tight end. It doesn't help make the decision on Gabe Davis any easier or provide extra depth at the X or Z positions, and that's the point I was making as far as people's desire to see them draft a true WR high.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Logic

[78thealltimegreat]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I understand.  But I can still wish I was reading better reports.  I'm hoping he is our day 1 starter and still has time to earn it.

 

It's just my thinking with how bad our line was last year, only one replacement with McGovern for Saffold...that doesn't give me a ton of confidence we will see very noticeable improvement.  I just really really want O'Cyrus to be get a hold of the RG position by the opener.

Hey I agree Royale but it’s clear he’s gonna take a little time 

[Special K]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I understand.  But I can still wish I was reading better reports.  I'm hoping he is our day 1 starter and still has time to earn it.

 

It's just my thinking with how bad our line was last year, only one replacement with McGovern for Saffold...that doesn't give me a ton of confidence we will see very noticeable improvement.  I just really really want O'Cyrus to be get a hold of the RG position by the opener.

 

Aside from today, I have seen many reports saying that Torrence has been doing well in camp....Every rookie is going to have ups and downs in camp, but I believe Torrence will take over the starting RG spot sooner rather than later.

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, The Wiz said:

Those ankles look strong this year.

 

 

Wow.  That doesn't look like last year's model. 

[Beck Water]

5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Wow.  That doesn't look like last year's model. 

 

Elam left a garmet on the field and it had something wiggling inside it.  But let's give him props, it was Gabe's moves that pulled it off him.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Beck Water

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, 947 said:

I like that they're force-feeding Torrence a steady dose of Daquon Jones. Let him struggle vs our best interior DL now & adapt/make adjustments so he's hopefully ready for the guys he'll see during the season.

Absolutely.  

 

We all tend to forget what a big jump it is.   High school to college is big, college to NFL is big, too.   It's a whole nother level or two. 

 

I heard someone say that, except maybe in the SEC, if you're an NFL talent, it may only be one game a year where you're lined up against another NFL talent.   Everyone else you play simply is not at your level.  Even in the SEC, it's true most of time.   You hit the NFL, and all at once the guys across from you are bigger, quicker, stronger, and smarter than all but one or two of the guys you saw in college.   

 

There's only on way to adjust, and that's to get live reps against the kind of talent you're going to be playing against.   In fact, that's one of the hidden benefits of having a good team instead of a team from the drought years.   Each year in camp, we hear many players say how good is to be able to practice against Diggs, against Miller and in this case, against DaQuan and Oliver and Ford and now Phillips.  

 

None of it means Torrence will make it.  That remains to be seen.  But he's getting to go against top-quality NFL talent every day in camp, and that speeds up his development, as compared to being on a mediocre team, or worse.  

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

It's more on coaches than GM if you ask me

 

They're the ones seeing them everyday, and I doubt the ST edict is something Beane thought up himself

 

That's an interesting thought, but I think (as far as we can tell from what's public) that the buck stops with Beane for who is on the 53 man roster.

 

I'm not sure why you'd think that; there are only so many ways to construct a roster that both has sufficient personnel/depth at each primary position AND enough talent at ST.  I'm sure it's influenced by the coaches, but it's probably indirect.  For example, demanding to have a full rotation of talented players at all DL positions and enough depth at DB to play a 3-2-5 primary defense probably constrains those roster construction options.

[HappyDays]

 

[fergie's ire]

2 hours ago, Allen2Moulds said:

In order for sustained success, you have to stagger the talent. Ideally, if Gabe has a monster year and plays like a 1, you pay and keep him. As his cap number kicks in, in 2025, you should be drafting another WR to replace the aging Diggs, who at that point should be your number 2. Kind of like Atlanta did, drafting Julio to replace Roddy White.

Same with CB1/CB2.

Elam is suppose to supplant Tre, in 2 to 3 years, as Tre starts to fade, and Elam hits his prime. But of course if we miss, we are using more draft capital on the same positions again. 

I think we largely agree.  Need to stagger so you aren't paying two #1s at their peak.  I guess I don't believe Gabe will ever be a REAL #1.  Think he is good if he's healthy and could put up monster numbers and seem like a number 1...so that some lesser team will covet him as a number 1.  Very much like Pearless Price back in the day.  Hopefully they can develop Shorter or someone else to stagger as a #2 and then invest in a future #1 soon.

 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

Caught up to them? Really? From 3rd best passing offense, to 2nd, to 7th over the last three seasons isn’t exactly falling off a cliff. 

 

Is "Isn't exactly falling off a cliff" another version of Promo's "at least we're not the Lions" rationale from the drought?

 

The Bills receivers literally had the most dropped passes in the NFL last season.   

 

Allen saw his passer rating drop 15 points from 2020 to 2021.........he was on a different plane as a passer that year and so was the entire offense.

 

Instead Allen has seen his completion % drop from 4th in the NFL to 24th and 22nd the past two seasons.

 

Don't you think he's a better QB now than he was then?  

 

The talent level around him has caused a tangible decline in his per snap productivity as a passer...........and subsequently he's had to take it upon himself to make up for lost production on the ground.    It's also adding up to extra hits/mileage.   That's not falling off a cliff but it's a decline that shouldn't have been allowed to happen for lack of attention to the offense in recent offseasons.    

 

[Don Otreply]

4 hours ago, NewEra said:

I think shakir and Sherfield are definitely competing for snaps.  Not only vs each other, but vs Harty and Kincaid as well.  Sherfield is listed as outside…: but he was the starting slot for Miami last year.  He can definitely play inside.  He’s a much better blocker and so far in camp, has been a much more reliable pass catcher (if reports are true).

 

I’m on record as loving the shakir pick and the player.  That said- it’s time to put up or shut up.  There’s a chance he’s buried behind Kincaid- Harty and Sherfield in terms of snaps.  If he keeps dropping the ball, I’d rather we have Morris out there and run more 13 personnel.  Morris has been a standout and I think he’s a player.  
 

I don’t think shakir will get cut, but if his drops continue, I wouldn’t blame them for cutting him loose. A WR ain’t **** if his hands can’t be trusted.  

Yup, the number one required skill for all receivers is catching the ball, if that isn’t happening… 

[NI Bills Fan]

Thanks for all the updates folks. It's much appreciated, especially by those of us who aren't on social media much.