I have the Bills 53 man roster right here

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Doc said:

The question is, can they justify keeping a roster spot for Reggie Gillian?

 

Overwhelmingly, yes!

[NeverOutNick]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

My Predicted 53 after Training Camp: 

 

QB - Josh Allen, Kyle Allen

 

RB - James Cook, Damien Harris, Latavius Murray

 

FB - Reggie Gilliam

 

WR - Stefon Diggs, Gabe Davis, Deonte Harty, Trent Sherfield, Khalil Shakir, Justin Shorter

 

TE - Dawson Knox, Dalton Kincaid, Quintin Morris

 

OL - Dion Dawkins, Connor McGovern, Mitch Morse, O'Cyrus Torrence, Spencer Brown, Ryan Bates, David Edwards, David Quessenberry, Tommy Doyle

 

DE - Von Miller (PUP), Leonard Floyd, Greg Rousseau, A.J. Epenesa, Shaq Lawson, Boogie Basham

 

DT - Ed Oliver, Daquan Jones, Jordan Phillips, Poona Ford, Tim Settle

 

LB - Matt Milano, Tyrel Dodson, Dorian Williams, Terrel Bernard, A.J. Klein, Tyler Matakevitch

 

CB - Tre'Davious White, Kaiir Elam, Taron Johnson, Dane Jackson, Christian Benford, Siran Neal

 

S - Jordan Poyer, Micah Hyde, Taylor Rapp, Damar Hamlin

 

ST - Tyler Bass, Sam Martin, Reid Ferguson

 

 

Cuts:

 

QB - Matt Barkley

 

RB - Darrynton Evans, Jordan Mims

 

WR - Andy Isabella, Tyrell Shavers, Dezmon Patmon, Isaiah Coulter, KeeSean Johnson, Marcell Ateman, Bryan Thompson

 

TE - Jace Sternberger, Joel Wilson

 

OL - Ike Boettger, Nick Broeker, Richard Gouraige, Greg Mancz, Kevin Jarvis, Ryan Van Demark, Alec Anderson

 

DE - Shane Ray, Kingsley Jonathan, Kameron Cline

 

DT - Eli Ankou, DJ Dale, Kendall Vickers, Cortez Broughton

 

LB - Baylon Spector, Travin Howard

 

CB - Cam Lewis, Alex Austin, Ja'Marcus Ingram, Kyrin Brown

 

S - Dean Marlowe, Zayne Anderson, Jared Mayden

I’m going to do some more in depth watching these next couple preseason games but because we play a lot of nickel and not a lot of base 4-3 sets and because outside of Milano the rest of the LBs we have are jags I doubt we keep so many especially since we use a lot of offensive guys on STs so we don’t need to keep subpar LBs. That being said I was impressed with Howard over any of the other LBs in that first preseason game. Very instinctive. I hope Beane and McDermott don’t keep players like Bernard and Shorter over guys who have proved more on the field and in practice. It’s ok to cut your losses and get the best actual fits for our team

[loveorhatembillsfan4life]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

My Predicted 53 after Training Camp: 

 

QB - Josh Allen, Kyle Allen

 

RB - James Cook, Damien Harris, Latavius Murray

 

FB - Reggie Gilliam

 

WR - Stefon Diggs, Gabe Davis, Deonte Harty, Trent Sherfield, Khalil Shakir, Justin Shorter

 

TE - Dawson Knox, Dalton Kincaid, Quintin Morris

 

OL - Dion Dawkins, Connor McGovern, Mitch Morse, O'Cyrus Torrence, Spencer Brown, Ryan Bates, David Edwards, David Quessenberry, Tommy Doyle

 

DE - Von Miller (PUP), Leonard Floyd, Greg Rousseau, A.J. Epenesa, Shaq Lawson, Boogie Basham

 

DT - Ed Oliver, Daquan Jones, Jordan Phillips, Poona Ford, Tim Settle

 

LB - Matt Milano, Tyrel Dodson, Dorian Williams, Terrel Bernard, A.J. Klein, Tyler Matakevitch

 

CB - Tre'Davious White, Kaiir Elam, Taron Johnson, Dane Jackson, Christian Benford, Siran Neal

 

S - Jordan Poyer, Micah Hyde, Taylor Rapp, Damar Hamlin

 

ST - Tyler Bass, Sam Martin, Reid Ferguson

 

 

Cuts:

 

QB - Matt Barkley

 

RB - Darrynton Evans, Jordan Mims

 

WR - Andy Isabella, Tyrell Shavers, Dezmon Patmon, Isaiah Coulter, KeeSean Johnson, Marcell Ateman, Bryan Thompson

 

TE - Jace Sternberger, Joel Wilson

 

OL - Ike Boettger, Nick Broeker, Richard Gouraige, Greg Mancz, Kevin Jarvis, Ryan Van Demark, Alec Anderson

 

DE - Shane Ray, Kingsley Jonathan, Kameron Cline

 

DT - Eli Ankou, DJ Dale, Kendall Vickers, Cortez Broughton

 

LB - Baylon Spector, Travin Howard

 

CB - Cam Lewis, Alex Austin, Ja'Marcus Ingram, Kyrin Brown

 

S - Dean Marlowe, Zayne Anderson, Jared Mayden

At first I didn’t really understand bringing in Isabella but maybe there is a path for him on this roster.

 

Not sure Shorter has shown much if anything to date to warrant anything..I also think Isabella offers more upside this season if we need to fit him in somewhere. 

[CapeBreton]

28 minutes ago, loveorhatembillsfan4life said:

At first I didn’t really understand bringing in Isabella but maybe there is a path for him on this roster.

 

Not sure Shorter has shown much if anything to date to warrant anything..I also think Isabella offers more upside this season if we need to fit him in somewhere. 

 

I haven't heard much positive news at all about Shorter and he did nothing in the preseason game, but he's a draft pick and plays special teams so he's gotta have the edge, even though Isabella seems to be having a much better camp but where does he fit into the lineup? 

[PrimeTime101]

4 minutes ago, CapeBreton said:

 

I haven't heard much positive news at all about Shorter and he did nothing in the preseason game, but he's a draft pick and plays special teams so he's gotta have the edge, even though Isabella seems to be having a much better camp but where does he fit into the lineup? 

I dont think he does. he is playing with the 3's and 4's.

[Doc]

9 minutes ago, CapeBreton said:

I haven't heard much positive news at all about Shorter and he did nothing in the preseason game, but he's a draft pick and plays special teams so he's gotta have the edge, even though Isabella seems to be having a much better camp but where does he fit into the lineup? 

 

With the team they have, no Day 3 draft pick is assured of anything anymore.

[SoCal Deek]

It’s obviously fun to play armchair head coach but everyone needs to keep in mind that the front office is looking at a lot more than tape from the Colts game to make their final decisions. Just like every year I’m guessing there’ll be a couple of cuts that seem to be real head scratchers to the fanbase. And just like every year I’ll look at the final 53 and say “Wow, that was a whole lot of chatter just to get that sixth WR and/or LB straightened out.”

[CapeBreton]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

With the team they have, no Day 3 draft pick is assured of anything anymore.

 

Yeah I guess Hodgins never did make the team out of camp so Shorter isn't necessarily a lock either. However, I do think they drafted him because they expected him to be able to make the team as a contributor on special teams, so that should help him. 

[Doc]

9 minutes ago, CapeBreton said:

Yeah I guess Hodgins never did make the team out of camp so Shorter isn't necessarily a lock either. However, I do think they drafted him because they expected him to be able to make the team as a contributor on special teams, so that should help him. 

 

It's something, but Shavers can also play STs.  

[Ralonzo]

5 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Quessenberry isn't going anywhere following Shell's retirement. The depth chart released during the Pre-Season is pretty much meaningless. We'll keep 4 OT's and I don't see Gouraige making it over him. And Shell's retirement was almost surely because he knew he wasn't making the team over Quessenberry and Doyle.

 

That is entirely speculative. As far as the facts, the depth charts & in-game deployment spoke otherwise as to Shell's prospects for the 53. 

 

Quess is empirically bad won't be getting better, if Gouraige is only a little worse at least he has upside (and cap savings).

[BillsFanForever19]

17 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agree the makeup of the roster. The three individual questions are:

 

1. Doyle (health)

2. K Allen (performance and McDermott's admission on open competition)

3. Shorter (lack of impact on both O and STs in camp and PS1)

 

Think those are the three spots I see as up for grabs. 

 

1.) Before Shell's retirement, I'd tend to agree with you. But with that happening, unless they're going to keep a wild card like Gouraige or Van Demark instead, he'll be here. We're going to keep at least 4 OT's.

 

2.) Make no mistake about it, Kyle didn't look good last week and had shaky moments throughout Camp. But Keenum looked pretty bad in the beginning last season as well. As McDermott said there's a "learning curve" when new QB's come on the team. 

 

This late into the Offseason and with the only other option being Matt Barkley, I imagine that when push comes to shove, they'll still view Kyle's traits and more recent track history of performing in the league as the better option amongst the two. But that could change if he performs god awful in the last two games.

 

3.) Shorter was always viewed as a Developmental prospect. A guy with great measurables and of high pedigree coming out of college that would take some time. 

 

If he were drafted in the 7th or late 6th, I'd probably agree with you. But having spent a 5th on him, I think he's going to get at least a year in the system, regardless of underwhelming performance so far.

 

17 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

A question for all; 

 

What would a corresponding move activating Von look like in your scenario (barring injuries and such)?

 

I ask because in this current roster, I’m guessing you axe the 5th DT or possibly Cam Lewis since both Siran Neal and Benford and could play safety if needed 

 

I think they'll keep an extra Defensive End on the roster while Von is out that will get axed when he's ready.

 

17 hours ago, Doc said:

The question is, can they justify keeping a roster spot for Reggie Gillian?

 

This isn't even a question. It's not a "justification" in their eyes. They gave him a contract extension just last season. He's not going anywhere.

 

16 hours ago, NeverOutNick said:

I’m going to do some more in depth watching these next couple preseason games but because we play a lot of nickel and not a lot of base 4-3 sets and because outside of Milano the rest of the LBs we have are jags I doubt we keep so many especially since we use a lot of offensive guys on STs so we don’t need to keep subpar LBs. That being said I was impressed with Howard over any of the other LBs in that first preseason game. Very instinctive. I hope Beane and McDermott don’t keep players like Bernard and Shorter over guys who have proved more on the field and in practice. It’s ok to cut your losses and get the best actual fits for our team

 

You may feel that way. But that's not how they operate. Investments matter. They spent a 3rd Rounder on Bernard just last season. He was either the starting MLB or first backup for this team before he got injured (probably still is when healthy). Bernard will be on this roster.

 

Shorter, again, as I touched on above was always drafted as a guy who would need some time to develop. Year 1 mainly working on Special Teams. If he were drafted later, maybe they'd wash their hands of him. But they're going to give a 5th Rounder at least a year.

 

15 hours ago, Doc said:

 

With the team they have, no Day 3 draft pick is assured of anything anymore.

 

Again, a 5th Round Pick is different than a late 6th or 7th. And even guys like Stevenson and Hodgins who were drafted later were given some time before they gave up on the investment. Beane has never given up on a Rookie Draft Pick that high, that quickly. 

 

12 hours ago, Ralonzo said:

 

That is entirely speculative. As far as the facts, the depth charts & in-game deployment spoke otherwise as to Shell's prospects for the 53. 

 

Quess is empirically bad won't be getting better, if Gouraige is only a little worse at least he has upside (and cap savings).

 

True, it is speculative that Shell retired because he didn't have a path to the roster. But 9 times out of 10, that is the reason when veteran free agents retire at this point in the year.

 

You may view him as "empirically bad". But he is and has been the first Backup OT on this team. With Shell's retirement, his spot is even more secure. If they felt he was as bad as you think he is, they wouldn't have re-signed him early in the Offseason.

 

If you're hoping or expecting that he'll be released in favor of some combination of 2 of the 3 of Doyle, Gouraige, and Van Demark beneath Dawkins and Brown - you're going to be disappointed. They want at least one guy with experience.

Edited August 18, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[GunnerBill]

35 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

1.) Before Shell's retirement, I'd tend to agree with you. But with that happening, unless they're going to keep a wild card like Gouraige or Van Demark instead, he'll be here. We're going to keep at least 4 OT's.

 

2.) Make no mistake about it, Kyle didn't look good last week and had shaky moments throughout Camp. But Keenum looked pretty bad in the beginning last season as well. As McDermott said there's a "learning curve" when new QB's come on the team. 

 

This late into the Offseason and with the only other option being Matt Barkley, I imagine that when push comes to shove, they'll still view Kyle's traits and more recent track history of performing in the league as the better option amongst the two. But that could change if he performs god awful in the last two games.

 

3.) Shorter was always viewed as a Developmental prospect. A guy with great measurables and of high pedigree coming out of college that would take some time. 

 

If he were drafted in the 7th or late 6th, I'd probably agree with you. But having spent a 5th on him, I think he's going to get at least a year in the system, regardless of underwhelming performance so far.

 

 

 

1. If Doyle can stay healthy he is on the team. He has two games to get through healthy. That isn't a given. He is one more nick up from missing.

 

2. I think Kyle Allen was worse than the numbers last week. They flattered him. And McDermott who has been careful to avoid a QB2 competition thus far even when Barkley outplayed him in practice was about as critical as he ever gets publicly after the game and then said it was an open competition. If he plays that badly again this weekend I think he will play himself off the roster. And tbh, having seen him completely fail to execute the QB position last week I think the chances are high. 

 

3. Yea Shorter has the benefit of the doubt.... but it is his teams play as much as anything that has me a little concerned for him. Your 6th receiver HAS to play special teams. And he hasn't established himself as a definite starter on that unit. What might save him is I don't necessarily think anyone behind him in queue has either. You mention Hodgins and Stevenson above... they both got the mysterious end of camp injury red shirt year. That is an option for them here too.

 

I think Doyle and Shorter probably make it, but there is routes to them not. I think Kyle Allen will play himself off the team.

Edited August 18, 2023 by GunnerBill

[BillsFanForever19]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

1. If Doyle can stay healthy he is on the team. He has two games to get through healthy. That isn't a given. He is one more nick up from missing.

 

2. I think Kyle Allen was worse than the numbers last week. They flattered him. And McDermott who has been careful to avoid a QB2 competition thus far even when Barkley outplayed him in practice was about as critical as he ever gets publicly after the game and then said it was an open competition. If he plays that badly again this weekend I think he will play himself off the roster. And tbh, having seen him completely fail to execute the QB position last week I think the chances are high. 

 

3. Yea Shorter has the benefit of the doubt.... but it is his teams play as much as anything that has me a little concerned for him. Your 6th receiver HAS to play special teams. And he hasn't established himself as a definite starter on that unit. What might save him is I don't necessarily think anyone behind him in queue has either. You mention Hodgins and Stevenson above... they both got the mysterious end of camp injury red shirt year. That is an option for them here too.

 

I think Doyle and Shorter probably make it, but there is routes to them not. I think Kyle Allen will play himself off the team.

 

I think the next two Pre-Season games will be telling when it comes to Kyle Allen and Matt Barkley. If Barkley runs with the 3's for both games, I'd be surprised if Allen was unseated. However, if come Game 3 Barkley is running with the 2's, then Allen's probably not making the 53.

 

As for the idea of Shorter being Red Shirted, he'll need to have a legitimate injury they can play off of. In the case of Isaiah Hodgins' Shoulder, he had surgery on it during the season he was on IR.

 

Marquez Stevenson was also injured during Training Camp and was put on IR for a foot injury. He was activated at the end of November that same year and then had surgery on his foot following the season.

 

So while it seemed questionable at the time, both injuries were legitimate and both ended up requiring surgery. They can't just say "yeah, he has an injury and he'll be on IR for the year" and just make it up.

Edited August 18, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

I think the next two Pre-Season games will be telling when it comes to Kyle Allen and Matt Barkley. If Barkley runs with the 3's for both games, I'd be surprised if Allen was unseated. However, if come Game 3 Barkley is running with the 2's, then Allen's probably not making the 53.

 

As for the idea of Shorter being Red Shirted, he'll need to have a legitimate injury they can play off of. In the case of Isaiah Hodgins' Shoulder, he had surgery on it during the season he was on IR.

 

Marquez Stevenson was also injured during Training Camp and was put on IR for a foot injury. He was activated at the end of November that same year and then had surgery on his foot following the season.

 

So while it seemed questionable at the time, both injuries were legitimate and both ended up requiring surgery. They can't just say "yeah, he has an injury and he'll be on IR for the year" and just make it up.

 

No but they can take a small injury that is easily recoverable in that year and IR him for the year if the player is agreeable (and they often are). The Stevenson one was that. He could have played that year. As you admit he did play prior to the surgery. That was a stash job.

[Doc]

7 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

1.) Before Shell's retirement, I'd tend to agree with you. But with that happening, unless they're going to keep a wild card like Gouraige or Van Demark instead, he'll be here. We're going to keep at least 4 OT's.

 

2.) Make no mistake about it, Kyle didn't look good last week and had shaky moments throughout Camp. But Keenum looked pretty bad in the beginning last season as well. As McDermott said there's a "learning curve" when new QB's come on the team. 

 

This late into the Offseason and with the only other option being Matt Barkley, I imagine that when push comes to shove, they'll still view Kyle's traits and more recent track history of performing in the league as the better option amongst the two. But that could change if he performs god awful in the last two games.

 

3.) Shorter was always viewed as a Developmental prospect. A guy with great measurables and of high pedigree coming out of college that would take some time. 

 

If he were drafted in the 7th or late 6th, I'd probably agree with you. But having spent a 5th on him, I think he's going to get at least a year in the system, regardless of underwhelming performance so far.

 

 

I think they'll keep an extra Defensive End on the roster while Von is out that will get axed when he's ready.

 

 

This isn't even a question. It's not a "justification" in their eyes. They gave him a contract extension just last season. He's not going anywhere.

 

 

You may feel that way. But that's not how they operate. Investments matter. They spent a 3rd Rounder on Bernard just last season. He was either the starting MLB or first backup for this team before he got injured (probably still is when healthy). Bernard will be on this roster.

 

Shorter, again, as I touched on above was always drafted as a guy who would need some time to develop. Year 1 mainly working on Special Teams. If he were drafted later, maybe they'd wash their hands of him. But they're going to give a 5th Rounder at least a year.

 

 

Again, a 5th Round Pick is different than a late 6th or 7th. And even guys like Stevenson and Hodgins who were drafted later were given some time before they gave up on the investment. Beane has never given up on a Rookie Draft Pick that high, that quickly. 

 

 

True, it is speculative that Shell retired because he didn't have a path to the roster. But 9 times out of 10, that is the reason when veteran free agents retire at this point in the year.

 

You may view him as "empirically bad". But he is and has been the first Backup OT on this team. With Shell's retirement, his spot is even more secure. If they felt he was as bad as you think he is, they wouldn't have re-signed him early in the Offseason.

 

If you're hoping or expecting that he'll be released in favor of some combination of 2 of the 3 of Doyle, Gouraige, and Van Demark beneath Dawkins and Brown - you're going to be disappointed. They want at least one guy with experience.

 

I meant he won't make the 53 man roster.  PS, sure.

[SoCal Deek]

Did Kyle Allen light it up against the Colts? No…he didn’t. But the pick six interception certainly wasn’t on him. I have no idea whether he has the skills but one half of an opening preseason game without the starting receivers probably isn’t going to define his career. 

[GunnerBill]

12 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Did Kyle Allen light it up against the Colts? No…he didn’t. But the pick six interception certainly wasn’t on him. I have no idea whether he has the skills but one half of an opening preseason game without the starting receivers probably isn’t going to define his career. 

 

I think it was on him. Shouldn't have thrown it and threw a 5 yard pass 3 yards off target. 

 

75% QB, 25% receiver.

[Beck Water]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

2. I think Kyle Allen was worse than the numbers last week. They flattered him. And McDermott who has been careful to avoid a QB2 competition thus far even when Barkley outplayed him in practice was about as critical as he ever gets publicly after the game and then said it was an open competition. If he plays that badly again this weekend I think he will play himself off the roster. And tbh, having seen him completely fail to execute the QB position last week I think the chances are high.

 

One of the Deep Mysteries of Life to me: how Dorsey could say, with a straight face, that Allen and Barkley graded out about the same.

 

The only thing I can think of is using some kind of "do your job" grading system, where if the OL lets a rusher through right away for a sack, that doesn't count against the QB.  But when the QB's reaction to said sack is to throw up a jump ball 6 yds behind the LOS with defenders in the area, I would think that still needs to count against him.  Ditto when the reaction to a busted screen play is to throw off-target past an onrushing defender and with others in the area (the pick)

 

Dirt that puppy or throw it out of bounds.

 

20 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Did Kyle Allen light it up against the Colts? No…he didn’t. But the pick six interception certainly wasn’t on him. I have no idea whether he has the skills but one half of an opening preseason game without the starting receivers probably isn’t going to define his career. 

 

Disagree, and actually Allen said as much - that the receiver got "hung up a bit" and he either needed to "get it to him or get it in the dirt".

53 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I meant he won't make the 53 man roster.  PS, sure.

 

I think the fact that the Bills have 4 WR with a very similar physical type on their roster (Shorter, Shavers, Ateman, Patman) says they really want one of them on the 53.  Which is why I didn't think Isabella had a shot.

 

But McDermott et al are making me second guess myself.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Beck Water

[Doc]

5 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

I think the fact that the Bills have 4 WR with a very similar physical type on their roster (Shorter, Shavers, Ateman, Patman) says they really want one of them on the 53.  Which is why I didn't think Isabella had a shot.

 

But McDermott et al are making me second guess myself.

 

They are definitely looking for a taller WR.  I have no idea how it's going to shake out.

[juno999]

21 hours ago, Ralonzo said:

 

That is entirely speculative. As far as the facts, the depth charts & in-game deployment spoke otherwise as to Shell's prospects for the 53. 

 

Quess is empirically bad won't be getting better, if Gouraige is only a little worse at least he has upside (and cap savings).

IIRC, Ryan Van Demark played LT with the 2nd string along with Shell at RT.