Elam the Next Teller?

[RyanC883]

10 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

How do you know he graded higher?

 

You watch the game in a broadcast view.  You aren't seeing the whole field and certainly not focusing on Jackson.  You have no idea how he's graded.

 

Do you really think McDermott sees Elam is better than Benford and Jackson but just doesn't make him the #2 for no reason at all?  He was our first pick last year.

 

I think McD is capable of making wrong assumptions about practice vs game performance.  

11 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

How do I know?   Really?  How do I know?

 

How many teams have you been on where the coach played the second best player at some position over the best player at the position?   I've been on a lot of teams, and I can't recall the coach EVER playing the second best player.   Coaches want to win.   Coaches also want the respect of the players; the players know who the best players on the team are, and they lose respect for the coach when the coach doesn't play them.   It's true about all teams I've known.   

 

Coaches quit when the owner makes them play players who aren't the best at their positions.  

 

So, it's simple:   The Bills grade their players in detail.  They play the best players.  Elam is not a regular starter.  It follows that Elam doesn't have the best grades at the position.  

 

Compare Elam to Cook.   Cook didn't play a lot early in the season.  Why?  Same reason as Elam: He didn't grade out as being good enough to play.  He played more as the season progressed.  Why?  Because he kept working and his grades improved, in practice and in games.  Better grades, more playing time.   Eventually, his grades got so good that he passed Motor, and the Bills finally concluded they could let Motor go.   Cook passed Singletary.   Elam hasn't passed Jackson and Benford.   It's that simple.  

 

Coaches play the second best player all the time. Your view is that coaches are infallible in player evaluation. The OPs point is that Elam is much better than the staff is giving him credit for.   

[Shaw66]

59 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

 

Coaches play the second best player all the time. Your view is that coaches are infallible in player evaluation. The OPs point is that Elam is much better than the staff is giving him credit for.   

I don't think they're infallible.   But I do think that they have 100, maybe 1,000 times more information than any one of us.  McDermott's been doing this for 20 years, every day of every year.  He has a DB coach and several assistants who are watching these guys in practice, in games, and rewatching all of it on film.   They also have an overall plan for the defense that they don't share with any of us.  So, yes, I do think it's much, much more likely that they, collectively, understand which player is best able to do their job.  

 

I remember Kyle Williams just laughing off the idea that some guys at PFF could watch film and evaluate his performance.  He said it was ridiculous.  He said they didn't have the experience, and they didn't even know what his job was on each play.   

 

[Success]

Elam is the next Revis.

 

[MJS]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't think they're infallible.   But I do think that they have 100, maybe 1,000 times more information than any one of us.  McDermott's been doing this for 20 years, every day of every year.  He has a DB coach and several assistants who are watching these guys in practice, in games, and rewatching all of it on film.   They also have an overall plan for the defense that they don't share with any of us.  So, yes, I do think it's much, much more likely that they, collectively, understand which player is best able to do their job.  

 

I remember Kyle Williams just laughing off the idea that some guys at PFF could watch film and evaluate his performance.  He said it was ridiculous.  He said they didn't have the experience, and they didn't even know what his job was on each play.   

And if there is any position group to trust McDermott with, it is the secondary. He has an excellent track record with the defensive secondary.

[JoPoy88]

32 minutes ago, Success said:

Elam is the next Revis.

 

That‘s a wishing well post but damn I hope you’re right.

[GreggTX]

His strengths are man to man and press. He has to learn to play zone better. It requires quick recognition and reaction skills. We knew it would take time. Maybe he'll always be a better man coverage guy. Maybe he'll be allowed to play more press to take advantage of his skill set. Maybe he'll learn to play zone as well as man. Time will tell.

Edited August 8, 2023 by GreggTX

[benderbender]

[Bill from NYC]

7 hours ago, Success said:

Elam is the next Revis.

 

A bit of a stretch perhaps?

[Hsker4life]

9 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

 

I think McD is capable of making wrong assumptions about practice vs game performance.  

  

Do you think RyanC883 or the OP are MORE capable of making wrong assumptions about a player’s ability?

[All_Pro_Bills]

The core problem is this front office squanders away a lot of draft capital.  Maybe Elam isn't the best choice for CB2 when the camp evaluation and competition is over.  If its Jackson then fine.  But you can't use a first round pick on a guy that's going to sit on the bench in year 2 and expect you're going to replace the talent you lose through attrition or free agency through the draft.  On top of it I recall they traded up a couple spots for Elam in exchange for their 1st and other picks.  Previously they spent 3 high picks on the DL and for me Rousseau is the only one that's shows any promise.  Not a lot of production from that investment.   

 

I see the same problem with the ILB competition.  A 3rd round pick used to draft Wiliiams and he might be buried at 3rd string on the depth chart.  If the idea was spending a 3rd rounder on a replacement for Edmunds then that plan might be a flop.  And if the idea was drafting for a potential high ceiling player and for him to ride the bench in year one then maybe the pick could have been put to better use at another position?  This team is in the Super Bowl window and potential turned to production 2 seasons from now is no help. 

 

As for the player competition at a couple positions in training camp the coaches are left with what the front office gives them to work with to find the best 11 on both sides of the ball.  

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

The core problem is this front office squanders away a lot of draft capital.  Maybe Elam isn't the best choice for CB2 when the camp evaluation and competition is over.  If its Jackson then fine.  But you can't use a first round pick on a guy that's going to sit on the bench in year 2 and expect you're going to replace the talent you lose through attrition or free agency through the draft.  On top of it I recall they traded up a couple spots for Elam in exchange for their 1st and other picks.  Previously they spent 3 high picks on the DL and for me Rousseau is the only one that's shows any promise.  Not a lot of production from that investment.   

 

I see the same problem with the ILB competition.  A 3rd round pick used to draft Wiliiams and he might be buried at 3rd string on the depth chart.  If the idea was spending a 3rd rounder on a replacement for Edmunds then that plan might be a flop.  And if the idea was drafting for a potential high ceiling player and for him to ride the bench in year one then maybe the pick could have been put to better use at another position?  This team is in the Super Bowl window and potential turned to production 2 seasons from now is no help. 

 

As for the player competition at a couple positions in training camp the coaches are left with what the front office gives them to work with to find the best 11 on both sides of the ball.  

I think you're ignoring a lot of factors. 

 

First, sometimes teams miss on a draft pick.   Yes, one would expect that a first round choice would have won a starting spot by the end of his rookie season, and Elam didn't do that.   The Bills may have made a mistake in an evaluation of his talent.   It happens to teams all the time.  The objective is to minimize the bad choices.   I'm not saying Elam's a bust - I think he will be fine.  If I had to guess, I'd say he'll be the full-time starter before this season ends, but we'll have to see. 

 

Second, when your team is good, it's harder for rookies to win starting time   Why?   Because there's better talent on the team, so the competition to start is tougher.   Dane Jackson and Benford wouldn't appear to be tough competition on paper, but obviously they're better than their resumes.   

 

Third, just like you can miss on early round picks, you can score on later round picks.   That seems to be the case for Benford. 

 

Fourth, when your team is good, you draft later, and the sure-fire starter label that goes with first round picks really only applies to the picks in the top half of the round.  As you go down through the first round, you begin to find more guys who are not instant starters.   That's been true with the Bills first round picks since they got good.   Rousseau started but didn't really light it up.   Those guys are not that much different from high second round guys, and those guys often are not instant starters.  

 

Fifth, trading up is something Beane has done often.   Everyone is jumping for joy that he did it for Kincaid, so I wouldn't be too quick to criticize the technique.   He also did it for Josh Allen, and that seems to have worked out okay. 

 

As for the linebackers, I'll repeat what I said yesterday, in this thread or another.   Have you ever known Beane NOT to go after talent when he thinks he has a hole in the lineup?   He's clearly gone after edge rushers, receivers, running backs, offensive linemen, corners.   If the Bills think they have a hole, Beane fills it.   What does that have to do with the middle linebacker position:  The Bills don't think they have a hole there.  If McDermott wasn't satisfied with Spector, Bernard, Dodson, and Klein, they would have gotten a veteran free agent, or they would have made LB a priority in the draft.   They didn't do that, and that tells me that they aren't worried about linebacker. 

[Luka]

23 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

The core problem is this front office squanders away a lot of draft capital.  Maybe Elam isn't the best choice for CB2 when the camp evaluation and competition is over.  If its Jackson then fine.  But you can't use a first round pick on a guy that's going to sit on the bench in year 2 and expect you're going to replace the talent you lose through attrition or free agency through the draft.  On top of it I recall they traded up a couple spots for Elam in exchange for their 1st and other picks.  Previously they spent 3 high picks on the DL and for me Rousseau is the only one that's shows any promise.  Not a lot of production from that investment.   

 

I see the same problem with the ILB competition.  A 3rd round pick used to draft Wiliiams and he might be buried at 3rd string on the depth chart.  If the idea was spending a 3rd rounder on a replacement for Edmunds then that plan might be a flop.  And if the idea was drafting for a potential high ceiling player and for him to ride the bench in year one then maybe the pick could have been put to better use at another position?  This team is in the Super Bowl window and potential turned to production 2 seasons from now is no help. 

 

As for the player competition at a couple positions in training camp the coaches are left with what the front office gives them to work with to find the best 11 on both sides of the ball.  

 

Is it the front office or the coaching staff? Beane has proven himself to be a wizard when it comes to the draft and free agency. He has never been shy about acquiring talent.

 

Utilization of talent provided has been the achillies heel of this staff the past couple seasons. I was never a big fan of Edmunds but, facts are facts. In college the VT staff had him all over the field. He was on the edge blitzing, he was dropping back in coverage, he was being moved around. They consistently made sure that he was a matchup advantage in their favor. He comes to Buffalo and is basically just stand in the middle of the field guy and wait for the play to come to you. I put that on Edmunds but I am starting to think that is what the staff wanted from him.

 

That's a big problem. 

 

The usage of Cook last year is another example. One fumble limited him to what, 8 games? On a team that struggled to run the football. And he, like Elam, was proving himself towards the end of the year as an explosive player. He's also in a camp battle this year. 

 

And let us not forget that this is the same staff that started Nathan Peterman... 

[BananaB]

On 8/8/2023 at 12:05 AM, MJS said:

And if there is any position group to trust McDermott with, it is the secondary. He has an excellent track record with the defensive secondary.

If that the position we should trust McD on then trading up to get a CB in the first that can step in and help the team should be fairly simple right? 

[MJS]

19 minutes ago, BananaB said:

If that the position we should trust McD on then trading up to get a CB in the first that can step in and help the team should be fairly simple right? 

Uh, yes? And that's what they did.

[Saxum]

Elam's issue apparently is he cannot break the college habit of getting away with hands all over wide receivers.

Some DBs can seem to get away with it but not Bills players.

Even in camp and practice he has been doing it and has caused issue with him and Diggs.

https://www.audacy.com/wgr550/sports/bills/diggs-elam-renew-confrontation-as-bills-close-out-training-camp

[Saxum]

On 8/9/2023 at 10:46 AM, Luka said:

And let us not forget that this is the same staff that started Nathan Peterman... 

 

It is not the same staff - most of the offense leads are gone.  You are exaggerated to try to prove your point.

[AuntieEm]

On 8/6/2023 at 8:56 AM, Doc said:

 

Huh?  Poyer was signed in 2017 and Teller was traded in 2019.

He's just saying he looks at it as if they traded teller for poyer not that they actually did.