Elam the Next Teller?

[BananaB]

30 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I think people need to start shifting their perception about this CB2 3-way battle with Elam, Dane, and Benford.  There is this negative perception that the fact Elam hasn't been named CB2 is somehow negative mark on Elam.  But that is not what is really going on, Elam isn't in a battle of CB2 because he isn't playing well enough, its because all 3 guys are having strong camps and deserve to be in the competition still and no one is going to be handed the job.

 

I don't see this as a bad thing by any means.  Never have too many good corners and it’s great that these guys are making the coaches decision tough.  

Do we have 3 good corners or 3bad ones? Dane sucked last year and he seems to be the leader of the pack. 

Edited August 6, 2023 by BananaB

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

"we were wrong" is assuming two things:

1) that Teller would have been as good of a blocking scheme fit in Buffalo for Bobby Johnson and Aaron Kromer and developed the same way in B'lo as he did in Cleveland (which I think it more of a power gap team)
2) that the Bills didn't recognize Teller as a potentially talented G (but not a fit for the positional flexibility they demanded of backups) when they traded him

 

I personally give those 0 for 2

but

I also think drafting O'cyrus Torrence is somewhat of an admission that perhaps acquiring and developing 2 guys who are very talented guards is necessary, and that valuing positional flexibility over all has its limitations.

 

Valid and fair points, but consider, then we can reasonably point a finger at our sourcing methodologies, right.  

 

If we're going to discuss an overall point, it can reasonably be that there's a reason why things haven't come together as planned via draft picks.  

 

 

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

the bills played nickel defense on 91% of defensive snaps in 2020. 
 

declaring 3 lbs were starters may not be that meaningful. 

 

Well yeah, but that's a cart/horse thing.  IOW, we haven't had the starting caliber LBs to play 3 with any regularity.  

 

 

[billsfan89]

I doubt Elam a first-round pick will get consistently displaced by Dane Jackson long term, I think Elam is still going to need to adjust his playstyle to zone. I also think that there will be much more patience and snaps given to a first-round pick vs. Teller who was a 5th-round pick. 

[JerseyBills]

28 minutes ago, BananaB said:

Do we have 3 good corners or 3bad ones? Dane sucked last year and he seems to be the leader of the pack. 

How did he suck? He was CB1 for half the year on the #2 defense in the league 

[Shaw66]

7 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

  Game performance is what matters. 

Yes. And they get graded against what they were supposed to do.  It is a certainty that Elams grades were lower; that's why he didn't play more.   

 

Why would anyone have a problem with that?

[1ManRaid]

Elam having to compete for CB2 is a GOOD problem to have.  It's not because Elam sucks, it's because both Jackson and Benford have outperformed their draft status.

 

Imagine complaining about having 4 starting quality outside CBs plus possibly the best slot CB in the league.

[Chaos]

13 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Yes. And they get graded against what they were supposed to do.  It is a certainty that Elams grades were lower; that's why he didn't play more.   

 

Why would anyone have a problem with that?

It is sort of related to the "not a good practice player".  A lot of great players are great because of instincts. Good coaches recognize when the players make instinctive good decisions.  Mediocre coaches don't recoginize when this happens. 

[Beck Water]

34 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

Well yeah, but that's a cart/horse thing.  IOW, we haven't had the starting caliber LBs to play 3 with any regularity. 

 

Are you suggesting that the Bills have been a primarily nickle team "because we don't have 3  starting caliber LBs"?

 

I don't think that makes sense.  Nothing has stopped McBeane from throwing resources (cap $$,high  draft picks) at other positions on defense.  It seems logical that if they wanted an upgrade at LB for a 3rd starter, they would have spared no effort to obtain one.  Moreover, in Klein, the Bills have had a LB who started in New Orleans for 3 years and made 11 starts for the Bills his first year here (as a replacement for Milano, who was injured, and occasionally in a 4-3 base D).  In Dobson, they have a LB who they regard as a potential MLB starter.

 

A lot of teams play primarily nickel these days because of the primacy of the NFL passing game.

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

Um, Wat? 

 

'Zo Alexander retired after 2019.  So he didn't "not start" because he was slowing down, he was not on the team in any role.

 

He was 36 in 2019.  Yes, he wasn't what he was before that, he himself even implied as much back then.  He had was obviously on the downturn, something that should be a reach to consider at the ages of 34, 35, and 36.  His snap counts only dropped by about 20% from 2018 to 2019.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

Who "starts" a game for McDermott with a heavy rotation, is often not a useful question, but by 2020, we were very strongly a nickel team and No, we did NOT start 3 LB well in to the 2020 season.  Taron Johnson started the first 3 games of 2020 and played 72% of the 4th and 56% of the 5th (in which S Dean Marlowe actually took the starting snaps at NCB).  In the games where Taron was healthy, he was starting and playing more like 85% of the snaps.  

 

2020 was the season that we went from a 4-3 in 2019 to what we're doing now.  It wasn't a smooth process.  But leapfrogging all of this in conversation, is this notion that McD has always played that kind of 2 LB defense which is flat out incorrect.  Up until and through 2019 he played a 4-3 both here and in Carolina.  This was all new for him in transition that season.  Let's not forget the context of our discussion, that we went to a different alignment than a 4-3 because we didn't have, and still don't have pending this season, 3 starting caliber LBs.  I don't necessarily disagree with the approach, but the reason for it is clear.  

 

Remember, Milano still hadn't come into his own as an all-around top LB yet, he was excellent in passing D, but a liability in the running D dept.  We were shuffling several players in and out of the LB role that season, the only consistent LB was Edmunds and to a lesser extent Klein, who started most of the season.  There was some blurring from the traditional OLB/DE role as I recall.  

 

Now it'll be interesting since now we have WLBs and SLBs, but not a MLB.  I'm quite curious how this shakes out.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

We went into the 2020 season primarily playing a 2 LB set.  So it makes no sense to say "we went to a 2 LB set because Klein has never been a reliable starter" when Klein not only actually started 11 games for the Bills that year, he played the overwhelming majority of snaps in 7 of those 11 starts (low of 69%, 88-100% in 5).  "Klein has never been a reliable starter", riiiiiight, that's why he started 12, 15, and 15 games for NOR the 3 years before joining Buffalo in 2020 and why he won DPOW in 2020 Week 9.

 

He started 12, 15, and 15 games at SLB for the Saints because they had no other starting LBs to play SLB.  Have you looked at who the other options were in NO those seasons?  It's not pretty.  LOL  

 

Either way, he logged an average of 2 sacks, 6 TFL, and 4 QB Hits per season there.  Hardly solid starting numbers.  He's been around McD because McD likes him for whatever his reasons are, he seems to have a good head, leadership skills, and is respected by the team.  

 

He started 11 games here for the same reasons.  I mean who have we had at LB otherwise?  What, Matakevich?  LOL  Again, Milano was just starting to come into his own as an all-around great LB beginning that season.  2021 was the season that he really emerged as one of the league's overall best.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

I think you might be confused by seeing Trent Murphy listed as a LB, and starting - but he was really playing a DE role, and listed as a LB in some services.  But the Bills considered him as a DE and that's how he played, in a rotation with Jerry Hughes, Bam Johnson, and Quintin Jefferson.  Although that really should be clear by looking at some box scores.

 

That's interesting, and yeah, I think that there's some of that, but again, I defer to what I said above, it wasn't a clear-cut season in terms of D alignments, McD, or Frazier perhaps, was tinkering with varying combinations, for reasons that I view as having to overcome the lack of three LBs that were worth starting without sacrificing performance.  Think of it as a sort of Hobson's Choice kinda thing.   But yes, Murphy was a big part of that.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

So no, "how you laid it out" is not "exactly the circumstances", it has a lot of the details of how the Bills were playing defense in 2020 factually incorrect.  

 

The entire season was an in-progress kinda thing and very strange and not entirely consistent from game to game.  So perhaps my memory is off somewhat, but again, keep in mind the point, the point isn't that McD or Frazier, depending upon who you want to tag for it, did not decide to go 2 LBs arbitrarily.  Again, it was more of a Hobson's Choice thing where they simply didn't have the talent to run the classic 4-3 that they'd been running while Lorax was here, otherwise they would have been running it.  And remember, Lorax was in between staying and retiring, so while perhaps Beane should have planned better for his Lorax's eventual departure, in fairness to Beane I'm not sure he knew in full that Lorax would retire before the Draft that year.  IDK, maybe he did, but I'm trying to extend some latitude to Beane here.  Klein is/was an OK SLB, but hardly much more than an average one on a good day.  If he had been, then presumably he'd have been paid as more than a depth caliber player at some point in there.  NO released him in favor of a 2nd-year player and a rookie, neither of which has done anything in the league other than backup duty otherwise.  If he were that great they'd have kept him.  

 

I'll agree that well before the end of the season in 2020 the "new D" took root, but I will argue to the nines that the reasons behind it were far from some genius change in D alignment, particularly considering that they ran a 4-3 with regularity during the first three seasons that McD/Frazier were here.  

 

And look, maybe I am completely off.  Maybe this is what Frazier, or is it McD, has wanted all along, but why wait then.  It is a passing league and more coverage guys can be an advantage at times.  But it would be quite the coincidence, for starters.  Also, we've been told now that it's been Frazier's D, isolating McD from blame for our playoff failures.  So if that's the case, it raises other questions.  

 

 

Edited August 6, 2023 by PBF81

[PBF81]

20 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Are you suggesting that the Bills have been a primarily nickle team "because we don't have 3  starting caliber LBs"?

 

I'm saying that factors heavily into the decision.  

 

For starters, has it been Frazier's D and his decisions, or McD's D and his decisions?  

 

If the latter, why the sudden change from his time in Carolina and our first three seasons here, to this, and only when the talent lacks to play that more classic 4-3?  

 

 

20 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

I don't think that makes sense.  Nothing has stopped McBeane from throwing resources (cap $$,high  draft picks) at other positions on defense.  It seems logical that if they wanted an upgrade at LB for a 3rd starter, they would have spared no effort to obtain one.  Moreover, in Klein, the Bills have had a LB who started in New Orleans for 3 years and made 11 starts for the Bills his first year here (as a replacement for Milano, who was injured, and occasionally in a 4-3 base D).  In Dobson, they have a LB who they regard as a potential MLB starter.

 

Well, I think it does make sense.  LOL  

 

Nothing has stopped them from throwing resources at other positions on D, so why haven't they at LB knowing that Edmunds was gone?  late 3rd-rounders aren't those resources.  MLB is a pretty big hole.  And if it's been their plan all along to play devoid of a classic MLB, then why did they draft Edmunds back then.  

 

If it's been there plan to play a 2 LB set featuring only a MLB and WLB (Milano), why throw good money at Floyd?  

 

It doesn't add up that "this was the plan all along."  

 

We'll disagree as to any notion that starts translate to how good a player is.  None of our CBs last year were any better than average and I'm not even sure that any even played consistently to average levels.  Yet they started.  Lotulolei started many games, he sucked.  Any number of players that started here were not average.  While I disagree, the majority sentiment is that Davis is a below-average starter here.  Just sayin'.  

 

 

20 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

A lot of teams play primarily nickel these days because of the primacy of the NFL passing game.

 

Yes, so I do keep open the possibility that it's all planned, but the disconnects mentioned above seem to indicate that it was not, that again, it's more reacting to a situation that good or effective planning.  

 

We'll find out a good many things this season.  McD's finally in charge of the D, no more potential scapegoats there.  Dorsey's in his second season.  We've finally drafted a seemingly solid IOL/OG in Torrence.  

 

If the lack of a bona fide MLB hurts us, it'll be a clue.  If the OL is still below average or average at best, then that will provide more info.  etc.  

 

We'll see how it shakes out.  Hopefully just about 6 months from now exactly, we'll be discussing how we won the Super Bowl.     If so, who cares, this is all then water under the bridge.  

 

 

[BananaB]

46 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

How did he suck? He was CB1 for half the year on the #2 defense in the league 

The secondary was middle of the pack and our rush D was top 5. Fact is Dane was the whipping boy for mediocre QBs on third and long the second half of the season. It  was tough to watch. 

[PBF81]

BTW, other than Edmunds, here have been our draft picks for LB since Edmunds in 1018.  

 

Vosean Joseph:  5th round 

Bernard:  Late 3rd 2022 

Spector:  7th 2022 

Williams:  Late 3rd 2023  

 

Bernard with the hopes of playing MLB.  

 

 

[Bill from NYC]

9 hours ago, Luka said:

My biggest pet peeve with this front office and coaching staff is rearing its ugly head yet again this offseason.

 

We pick Elam with our 1st round pick last year. He is a physically gifted cover corner with great size and ball skills. When given a chance to play late last year, he was excellent against guys like Tyreek Hill and Jamar Chase, two of the best receivers in the league.

 

And he's in a competition for the #2 corner position... with Dane Jackson... 

 

A couple days ago Chris Brown mentioned on One Bills Drive he may lose this competition because of... now get this... his ability to set the edge in the run game... 

 

You forgot to mention that we actually traded UP for Elam, this in a draft said to be deep draft for corners.

 

Btw, how do you like our wide receivers other than Diggs?

[Beck Water]

18 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

2020 was the season that we went from a 4-3 in 2019 to what we're doing now.  It wasn't a smooth process.  But leapfrogging all of this in conversation, is this notion that McD has always played that kind of 2 LB defense which is flat out incorrect.  Up until and through 2019 he played a 4-3 both here and in Carolina.  This was all new for him in transition that season.

 

It's correct that McDermott has not always played a 4-2-5 or "nickel" defense.  It's also correct that he hasn't always played the "little to no dime" defense.  That is personnel driven by the fact that Milano is so good in pass coverage and that Taron Johnson can function as a linebacker in run fits that allow us to use a 4-2-5 base.

 

However, the idea that 4-2-5 or "nickel" was "new" to McDermott during the 2020 season is just factually incorrect.  So is the idea that the Bills are playing this defense because they don't have 3 quality LB, rather than because they feel it is the best match for most of the teams they face in today's pass-heavy NFL.

 

And I don't know how to put it tactfully, but the stuff in your post I responded to "They started 3 LBs well into the 2020 season, McD's 4th season."   "We officially started 3 LBs into McD's 4th season and only switched mid-season. " is straight-out verifyably Incorrect.

 

Taron Johnson played the overwhelming majority of the snaps - >75% --- in the first eight games of the season with the exception of vs LVR (72%) and Tenn (56%).  He played slightly more snaps (>90%) for a 3 game stretch while Milano was on IR, then actually saw his snaps drop a bit the last few games of the season - not because we were playing a 4-3, we weren't, but because Siran Neal and sometimes Dean Marlowe was splitting the snaps with him.

 

You trend to post very definitive sounding posts in which you claim to be factual and definitive, but (as in this instance) are sometimes just mistaken, and frankly that IMHO casts doubt upon your other claims, which I don't have energy into tracking down at the moment - just saying it how it was. 

 

PS I'll take on this: "Remember, Milano still hadn't come into his own as an all-around top LB yet, he was excellent in passing D, but a liability in the running D dept.".  This is nonsense.  Milano was a very developed, mature LB in 2020, his 4th year in the league, because he was a "thumper" in the run game as well as a strong coverage LB.  He was a pending free agent that off-season and widely expected to have great interest and to claim a price the Bills wouldn't be able to match, had he not made the decision to stay here.  As Beane said "the only knock on Matt, and he's aware of it himself, is injuries"

[Luka]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

You forgot to mention that we actually traded UP for Elam, this in a draft said to be deep draft for corners.

 

Btw, how do you like our wide receivers other than Diggs?

 

As long as Shakir is WR3 I am pleased with our receiving corps. Shakir had a couple handful of very meaningful catches on 3rd and medium and 3rd and long last season. I also am very high on Shorter and really love the addition of size all around that the front office has added, but again, it's up to the coaching staff to get them on the field and utilize the talent appropriately. Hopefully he practices "correctly" and is working with Dawkins so he can fill in at left tackle when needed. 

[Coach Tuesday]

I hereby nominate this for the Hall of Mis-Takes

[Luka]

1 hour ago, BananaB said:

The secondary was middle of the pack and our rush D was top 5. Fact is Dane was the whipping boy for mediocre QBs on third and long the second half of the season. It  was tough to watch. 

But he was near the ball! SO what if the opposing offense picked up 15 on a 3rd and 8! 

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, Chaos said:

It is sort of related to the "not a good practice player".  A lot of great players are great because of instincts. Good coaches recognize when the players make instinctive good decisions.  Mediocre coaches don't recoginize when this happens. 

Sort of related. But it doesn't change the point.  CB2, like every other position, has certain responsibilities.  The players are taught what they're supposed to do under various play calls and circumstances.  They get graded on how well they execute the job.  Elam didn't start because he didn't execute as well as the others in games.  Yes, maybe he was best at aspects of man coverage, but the others were better at other aspects of the job.  It's very simple.  

Edited August 6, 2023 by Shaw66

[Luka]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

Sort of related. But it doesn't change the point.  CB2, like every other position, has certain responsibilities.  The players are taught what they're supposed to do under various play calls and circumstances.  They get hraded on home well they execute the job.  Elam didn't start because he didn't execute as well as the others in games.  Yes, maybe he was best at aspects of man coverage, but the others were better at other aspects of the job.  It's very simple.  

 

But as a corner your NUMBER ONE job is to cover the receiver. Allowing a couple extra yards on a run is a lot different than giving up chunk yardage down the field. Corner that can cover >>>> corner that can play the run. Make excuses for the shoddy job this coaching staff does in evaluating and utilizing talent all you like, there's a reason we haven't overcome the Chiefs to win it all, and it's usually clapping for no reason.

 

[Coach Tuesday]

Just now, Luka said:

 

But as a corner your NUMBER ONE job is to cover the receiver. Allowing a couple extra yards on a run is a lot different than giving up chunk yardage down the field. Corner that can cover >>>> corner that can play the run. Make excuses for the shoddy job this coaching staff does in evaluating and utilizing talent all you like, there's a reason we haven't overcome the Chiefs to win it all, and it's usually clapping for no reason.

 

This coaching staff and scouting apparatus have many flaws but drafting and coaching up DBs is NOT one of them.