Elam the Next Teller?

[TheyCallMeAndy]

People need to stop looking at it like “if he isn’t the starter right now, our coaching staff sucks.”

 

Elam had big plays last year, but he also allowed 60+ completion percentage. He has more learning to do, and if his issue is confidence or “over thinking” then just throwing him to the fire because he was a first round pick is foolish.

 

We are very fortunate that we have 2 other legitimate starting CBs that can play next to White that are allowing us to bring Elam along the way he needs to. 

[Mr. WEO]

6 minutes ago, BillsFan2313 said:

 

Why? 

 

Why? 

 

Why? 

[Simon Says]

2 hours ago, Luka said:

My biggest pet peeve with this front office and coaching staff is rearing its ugly head yet again this offseason.

 

We pick Elam with our 1st round pick last year. He is a physically gifted cover corner with great size and ball skills. When given a chance to play late last year, he was excellent against guys like Tyreek Hill and Jamar Chase, two of the best receivers in the league.

 

And he's in a competition for the #2 corner position... with Dane Jackson... 

 

A couple days ago Chris Brown mentioned on One Bills Drive he may lose this competition because of... now get this... his ability to set the edge in the run game... 

 

To me, this kind of thing is exactly why this staff can not get over the hump and win it all. This is a passing league. The defense is in a unique position to have two elite corners on either side of the field, which frees up Poyer and Hyde to make plays, allows Taron Johnson to be more aggressive in run support and gives the defensive line that extra second needed to get to the quarterback.

 

But we're worried about run support? From an outside corner? That's why Benford and Jackson are rotating out there? Who by the way, are typically getting torched in coverage. Dane Jackson is said to always be around the ball... okay but a yard behind the receiver while he's making a big play isn't exactly what I'd be looking for as a coach when evaluating a defensive back.

 

And Elam's strengths and weaknesses coming out of Florida were no mystery, this isn't something that should have come as a shock to McDermott. So why pick him there?

 

He is corner 1 talent level and would most likely be in that spot on a lot of other teams in this league. At some point this staff needs to get out of it's own way or they will waste the career of one of the best quarterbacks to ever step on a football field. 

 

Calm down. Elam is still adjusting to zone coverage. As you said yourself, the CB attributes are there. And, you also said, this is a passing league. With offenses routinely using 3,4 wrs, why would the Bills trade a corner? They often take 2,3 years to develop.

[PBF81]

12 minutes ago, freddyjj said:

Zo only started 26 of 48 games in his years under McD.  I would say the opposite of your premise, the Bills played 3 LBs in 2017 and 2018 because they had issues at Nickel until Taron Johnson took the job full time in 2019. 
 

Yet one can look at Carolina where McD successfully used Keuchly, TD and Shaq Thompson at LB in a replica of Jim Johnson’s Eagle D.  Maybe he will use more of a 3 LB set this year.  

 

That's not correct.  How many starts Lorax had isn't germane to the central point.  They started 3 LBs well into the 2020 season, McD's 4th season.  Lorax didn't start because he was in his mid-30s and already slowing down.  We officially started 3 LBs into McD's 4th season and only switched mid-season.  Klein got a lot of starts that season too, which is why we went to a 2 LB set, presumably, because Klein has never been a reliable starter.  He's a depth-caliber LB, STs player, or a role-player.  That's why he's only averaged 6 starts/season with McD as either a HC or DC.  He started in NO for the most part for 3 seasons, but that's only because NO didn't have a SLB worth a crap otherwise back then while fielding a very average defense.  

 

In Carolina, in all of McD's seasons there they officially started 3 LBs.  Most notably the trio of Kuechly, Davis, and Thompson as you mention.  That was a solid LB unit, very solid.  They were the starting 3 in McD's last two seasons there in fact.  Klein started some the year prior before they drafted Thompson.  

 

So how I laid it out is exactly the circumstance(s).  What to do with that info you can decide.   

 

 

[PBF81]

22 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

-In team building, the team evaluates position groups against the other members of that position  group.  So, logically, Teller was traded because Bobby Johnson and the FO rated him as lower than the other IOL talent they had in 2019:  Quinton Spain, Jon Feliciano, Mitch Morse, Spencer Long, Ike Boettger and Ryan Bates.  Spain and Feliciano started, along with Morse.  Long was the backup C with proven NFL starts.

 

So fundamentally it came down to the Bills evaluating Ike Boettger and Ryan Bates as better prospects for their OL than Wyatt Teller.    Both were felt to have more positional flexibility and to be a better scheme fit for Bobby Johnson.  Maybe that evaluation was mistaken; mistakes happen.

 

Which is one among many strong points as to why our coaching staff and Beane aren't beyond second guessing.  

 

It's interesting, I had an industry person tell me when he was traded that we were making a huge mistake and that Teller would turn out to be a very good IOL, which turned out to be correct.  I argued at the time, thinking that he might be OK but not nearly as good as he's been in Cleveland, but he was right, we were wrong.  

 

 

[Big Turk]

3 hours ago, Luka said:

My biggest pet peeve with this front office and coaching staff is rearing its ugly head yet again this offseason.

 

We pick Elam with our 1st round pick last year. He is a physically gifted cover corner with great size and ball skills. When given a chance to play late last year, he was excellent against guys like Tyreek Hill and Jamar Chase, two of the best receivers in the league.

 

And he's in a competition for the #2 corner position... with Dane Jackson... 

 

A couple days ago Chris Brown mentioned on One Bills Drive he may lose this competition because of... now get this... his ability to set the edge in the run game... 

 

To me, this kind of thing is exactly why this staff can not get over the hump and win it all. This is a passing league. The defense is in a unique position to have two elite corners on either side of the field, which frees up Poyer and Hyde to make plays, allows Taron Johnson to be more aggressive in run support and gives the defensive line that extra second needed to get to the quarterback.

 

But we're worried about run support? From an outside corner? That's why Benford and Jackson are rotating out there? Who by the way, are typically getting torched in coverage. Dane Jackson is said to always be around the ball... okay but a yard behind the receiver while he's making a big play isn't exactly what I'd be looking for as a coach when evaluating a defensive back.

 

And Elam's strengths and weaknesses coming out of Florida were no mystery, this isn't something that should have come as a shock to McDermott. So why pick him there?

 

He is corner 1 talent level and would most likely be in that spot on a lot of other teams in this league. At some point this staff needs to get out of it's own way or they will waste the career of one of the best quarterbacks to ever step on a football field. 

 

 

Go back and watch the various games early in the year when both safeties were out and tell me that setting the edge isn't important. They got gashed over and over again on long runs because the safeties took terrible angles on outside runs and allowed the player to get outside where there was nobody to make a play.

 

Jaquan Johnson was God Awful at that and Hamlin was poor the first few game too but improved tremendously in that area as the year went on so that it became a strength rather than a weakness.

 

 

Edited August 6, 2023 by Big Turk

[JerseyBills]

Sal said it was because he's not grasping the scheme,  his zone coverage 

[Tipster19]

3 hours ago, DJB said:

Teller wasn’t a first round pick I’m not seeing the similarities as much.

 

1st round picks get much more rope before they are cut or dealt 

 

Elam is fine

Using Chris Brown as a reference.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Every guddam time we get an Elam thread... I have to remind many of you that 'lizard vision' is not necessarily the superpower you attribute it to be.

[MJS]

You are comparing a 5th round pick who never played to a 1st round pick who saw regular playing time last year and who is getting tons of 1st team reps in camp? What is the similarity here?

 

What a moronic take.

[BananaB]

3 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

People need to stop looking at it like “if he isn’t the starter right now, our coaching staff sucks.”

 

Elam had big plays last year, but he also allowed 60+ completion percentage. He has more learning to do, and if his issue is confidence or “over thinking” then just throwing him to the fire because he was a first round pick is foolish.

 

We are very fortunate that we have 2 other legitimate starting CBs that can play next to White that are allowing us to bring Elam along the way he needs to. 

We’re slowing down his learning process for average play ahead of him. Put the guy on the field that has the potential to help you more in January. Dane is who he is at this point, if Elam doesn’t improve once he starts getting the bulk of the reps you always got Dane to step back in. 

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

Which is one among many strong points as to why our coaching staff and Beane aren't beyond second guessing.  

 

It's interesting, I had an industry person tell me when he was traded that we were making a huge mistake and that Teller would turn out to be a very good IOL, which turned out to be correct.  I argued at the time, thinking that he might be OK but not nearly as good as he's been in Cleveland, but he was right, we were wrong. 

 

"we were wrong" is assuming two things:

1) that Teller would have been as good of a blocking scheme fit in Buffalo for Bobby Johnson and Aaron Kromer and developed the same way in B'lo as he did in Cleveland (which I think it more of a power gap team)
2) that the Bills didn't recognize Teller as a potentially talented G (but not a fit for the positional flexibility they demanded of backups) when they traded him

 

I personally give those 0 for 2

but

I also think drafting O'cyrus Torrence is somewhat of an admission that perhaps acquiring and developing 2 guys who are very talented guards is necessary, and that valuing positional flexibility over all has its limitations.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Beck Water

[Simon Says]

6 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Only Bills fans complain about having three corners with ability vying for a job in a passing league.  I love that we have 4 corners, including Tre, that can perform.

Especially with teams running 3 or 4 wrs 

6 hours ago, Bills!Win! said:

 

we still ended up with Poyer and they ended up with teller 

You're still going on about this?

[NoSaint]

4 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

That's not correct.  How many starts Lorax had isn't germane to the central point.  They started 3 LBs well into the 2020 season, McD's 4th season.  Lorax didn't start because he was in his mid-30s and already slowing down.  We officially started 3 LBs into McD's 4th season and only switched mid-season.  Klein got a lot of starts that season too, which is why we went to a 2 LB set, presumably, because Klein has never been a reliable starter.  He's a depth-caliber LB, STs player, or a role-player.  That's why he's only averaged 6 starts/season with McD as either a HC or DC.  He started in NO for the most part for 3 seasons, but that's only because NO didn't have a SLB worth a crap otherwise back then while fielding a very average defense.  

 

In Carolina, in all of McD's seasons there they officially started 3 LBs.  Most notably the trio of Kuechly, Davis, and Thompson as you mention.  That was a solid LB unit, very solid.  They were the starting 3 in McD's last two seasons there in fact.  Klein started some the year prior before they drafted Thompson.  

 

So how I laid it out is exactly the circumstance(s).  What to do with that info you can decide.   

 

 

the bills played nickel defense on 91% of defensive snaps in 2020. 
 

declaring 3 lbs were starters may not be that meaningful. 

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, MJS said:

You are comparing a 5th round pick who never played to a 1st round pick who saw regular playing time last year and who is getting tons of 1st team reps in camp? What is the similarity here?

 

What a moronic take.

 

Factually, Wyatt Teller started 7 games (week 10 on) at LG his rookie season for the Bills.  He replaced Vlad "the impaler" Ducasse.   He didn't look like "all that" between Dawkins and Russell Bodine at C, but I'm not sure anyone would have looked like "all that" next do Russell Bodine at C in Juan Castillo's blocking scheme.

 

[Mr. WEO]

[BananaB]

8 minutes ago, Herb Nightly said:

Especially with teams running 3 or 4 wrs 

You're still going on about this?

Do all have the ability though? Dane was terrible last year and he seems to be the leading guy. That’s the problem, that’s why some of us are very frustrated.  Maybe McD is too worried about Xs and Os and the playbook then just putting the best talent on the field and letting him develop. He’s done it in the past with a few guys. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

5 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

OP puts Teller in the title, then never mentions him, or that Elam might be traded.

 

 

pretty sweet threadwork...

I believe we call that clickbait

 

[Alphadawg7]

I think people need to start shifting their perception about this CB2 3-way battle with Elam, Dane, and Benford.  There is this negative perception that the fact Elam hasn't been named CB2 is somehow negative mark on Elam.  But that is not what is really going on, Elam isn't in a battle of CB2 because he isn't playing well enough, its because all 3 guys are having strong camps and deserve to be in the competition still and no one is going to be handed the job.

 

I don't see this as a bad thing by any means.  Never have too many good corners and its great that these guys are making the coaches decision tough.  

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

That's not correct.  How many starts Lorax had isn't germane to the central point.  They started 3 LBs well into the 2020 season, McD's 4th season.  Lorax didn't start because he was in his mid-30s and already slowing down.  We officially started 3 LBs into McD's 4th season and only switched mid-season.  Klein got a lot of starts that season too, which is why we went to a 2 LB set, presumably, because Klein has never been a reliable starter.  He's a depth-caliber LB, STs player, or a role-player.  That's why he's only averaged 6 starts/season with McD as either a HC or DC.  He started in NO for the most part for 3 seasons, but that's only because NO didn't have a SLB worth a crap otherwise back then while fielding a very average defense.  

 

In Carolina, in all of McD's seasons there they officially started 3 LBs.  Most notably the trio of Kuechly, Davis, and Thompson as you mention.  That was a solid LB unit, very solid.  They were the starting 3 in McD's last two seasons there in fact.  Klein started some the year prior before they drafted Thompson.  

 

So how I laid it out is exactly the circumstance(s).  What to do with that info you can decide.   

 

 

 

Um, Wat? 

 

'Zo Alexander retired after 2019.  So he didn't "not start" because he was slowing down, he was not on the team in any role.

 

Who "starts" a game for McDermott with a heavy rotation, is often not a useful question, but by 2020, we were very strongly a nickel team and No, we did NOT start 3 LB well in to the 2020 season.  Taron Johnson started the first 3 games of 2020 and played 72% of the 4th and 56% of the 5th (in which S Dean Marlowe actually took the starting snaps at NCB).  In the games where Taron was healthy, he was starting and playing more like 85% of the snaps.

 

We went into the 2020 season primarily playing a 2 LB set.  So it makes no sense to say "we went to a 2 LB set because Klein has never been a reliable starter" when Klein not only actually started 11 games for the Bills that year, he played the overwhelming majority of snaps in 7 of those 11 starts (low of 69%, 88-100% in 5).  "Klein has never been a reliable starter", riiiiiight, that's why he started 12, 15, and 15 games for NOR the 3 years before joining Buffalo in 2020 and why he won DPOW in 2020 Week 9.

 

I think you might be confused by seeing Trent Murphy listed as a LB, and starting - but he was really playing a DE role, and listed as a LB in some services.  But the Bills considered him as a DE and that's how he played, in a rotation with Jerry Hughes, Bam Johnson, and Quintin Jefferson.  Although that really should be clear by looking at some box scores.

 

So no, "how you laid it out" is not "exactly the circumstances", it has a lot of the details of how the Bills were playing defense in 2020 factually incorrect.

 

 

Edited August 6, 2023 by Beck Water