Training Camp - 8/3 - 9:45am

[wppete]

15 minutes ago, NickelCity said:

Waiting til 4 is a real pain in the ass for us junkies. 

Where can we watch? 

[Warcodered]

 

[SCBills]

10 minutes ago, balln said:

I’ll help. The chiefs drafted Chris jones in the 2nd. The chiefs drafted Travis kelce in the 3rd. Need to get more IMPACT freaking players / hit on some

picks BEANE! 
 

I think Kincaid will be beanes first outside of Josh Allen. I simply thinks all his other draft picks are JAgS w a few good starters (taron , Milano) 

 

also just think. He’s drafted with a 2 and 2 3s - DS, moss and cook. RBs that haven’t moved the needle or made big impact in a big game (still too early on cook tho) 

Milano is more than a “good starter”, however… he’s an elite LB in a world where you have to hit on QB to be relevant, and then OL, DL & WR to be a contender. 
 

Beane’s biggest issue was the back to back RD2 picks of AJE & Basham, followed by back to back RD3 picks of Bernard & Williams.  
 

If you’re going to do that on consecutive Day 2’s, one of them needs to hit.  
 

He still has time for one of Bernard or Williams, but is running out of it with AJE and Basham - as we’re essentially at a place with AJE where he’s finally a legitimate rotational pass rusher and we get one year of that production from him before we either lose him, or have to allocate cap space to him. 
 

In fairness.. I think Elam, Cook, Kincaid and Torrence may be the guys that swing the pendulum back to Beane’s side. 

[balln]

Just now, SCBills said:

Milano is more than a “good starter”, however… he’s an elite LB in a world where you have to hit on QB to be relevant, and then OL, DL & WR to be a contender. 
 

Beane’s biggest issue was the back to back RD2 picks of AJE & Basham, followed by back to back RD3 picks of Bernard & Williams.  
 

If you’re going to do that on consecutive Day 2’s, one of them needs to hit.  
 

He still has time for one of Bernard or Williams, but is running out of it with AJE and Basham - as we’re essentially at a place with AJE where he’s finally a legitimate rotational pass rusher and we get one year of that production from him before we either lose him, or have to allocate cap space to him. 
 

In fairness.. I think Elam, Cook, Kincaid and Torrence may be the guys that swing the pendulum back to Beane’s side. 

How about back to back 3rd rd really poor RAS RBs but good “character”?

[SCBills]

4 minutes ago, balln said:

How about back to back 3rd rd really poor RAS RBs but good “character”?

Agreed.  I think we learned a lesson with those picks.  
 

Our backfield now consists of 3 guys who have distinct high level skills with a weakness.  
 

Cook - elite game speed & pass catching but needs to get better in pass pro. 
 

Harris - Power back with some speed, but is meh at receiving 

 

Murray - Power back, good pass pro, but up there in age 

 

Never again do I want to see us draft 3 down backs who have no high level skills, while doing everything “average to good”.   Which is Singletary in a nutshell. 
 

Moss I had higher hopes for .. he just didn’t work out. 
 

Edited August 4, 2023 by SCBills

[NewEra]

5 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

 

He’s a good dude.

 

Hopefully he won’t be featured on this again.

 

💤 

 

the only part I enjoyed was Diggs. Why doesn’t Diggs get mic’d up? Think he says no?

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 minute ago, balln said:

How about back to back 3rd rd really poor RAS RBs but good “character”?

 

Singletary had 3000+ yards and averaged 4.7 YPC over the last 4 years.  He's certainly not all-pro, but he's not far off Miles Sanders and David Montgomery statistically at all.  You can do a lot worse. 

 

Moss on the other hand was injured at times, and wholly ineffective at others.  There were numbers from college that seemed to indicate he was going to be a player outside of his RAS.

 

Also RAS doesn't mean everything - you do want players who are good at football, not working out. 

[GoBills808]

46 minutes ago, balln said:

I’ll help. The chiefs drafted Chris jones in the 2nd. The chiefs drafted Travis kelce in the 3rd. Need to get more IMPACT freaking players / hit on some

picks BEANE! 
 

I think Kincaid will be beanes first outside of Josh Allen. I simply thinks all his other draft picks are JAgS w a few good starters (taron , Milano) 

 

also just think. He’s drafted with a 2 and 2 3s - DS, moss and cook. RBs that haven’t moved the needle or made big impact in a big game (still too early on cook tho) 

Chiefs recent drafts in those mid rounds have been average as well 

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, NewEra said:

Yes, I think he drafted poorly in rd 2-3 in the last few years and it may have cost us a a championship.  
 

Brief summary on each pick within your quotation is enough to show how it may have cost us a championship.  
 

I don’t care to get into the %’s of 2nd and 3rd rd picks that succeed.  I didn’t like several of the picks at the time and those picks have done next to nothing to help our team.  In most cases they hurt our team.  Considering that we were a second away from possibly winning a SB 2 seasons ago, I can say that drafting other players instead of the busts COULD have cost us a championship.  Or more.

 

Actually,  no, it's not.  We bring 90 players into camp each season.  Every team drafts players who don't succeed. 

 

So you kind of need to explain a bit more to defend that as a realistic theory as responsible for "no championship".

 

Or not - you can believe it, and I can chalk it up as "not defended, not proven" and it looks like it's spurred some interesting discussion.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Beck Water

[FireChans]

4 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

 

I mean, if you say so

 

You aren't really contending that Gabe Davis is as good as Jaylen Waddle, are you?

 

The Jaylen Waddle who has 179 catches for 2300 yards in two seasons compared to Gabe's 118 for 1900 in three?

 

The Jaylen Waddle who, as a deep threat, still boasts a almost 70% catch percentage compared to Gabe's 54%? 

 

The Jaylen Waddle who has had Tua, Jacoby Brissett, Teddy Bridgewater and Skylar Thompson throwing to him, not one of the best QB's in football?

 

Man.

Edited August 4, 2023 by FireChans

[NewEra]

Just now, Beck Water said:

 

Actually,  no, it's not.  We bring 90 players into camp each season.  Every team has players who don't succeed. 

 

So you kind of need to explain a bit more to defend that as a theory for "no championship".

No, I don’t have to explain anything anymore than I already have.  It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to put 2 and 2 together here. 

If we would’ve drafted some impact players in rd 2 and 3 as opposed to some of the busts that we drafted we may have beaten KC in jan 2022.  Maybe even KC in 21 and cinci in 23.   
 

no, I can’t scientifically prove that we could have won.  I just know that good players help win titles.  Bums don’t.  There were some very good players available when we selected bums.  Different selections MAY HAVE led to different fates the last few years

 

[BillsShredder83]

38 minutes ago, FireChans said:

You aren't really contending that Gabe Davis is as good as Jaylen Waddle, are you?

 

The Jaylen Waddle who has 179 catches for 2300 yards in two seasons compared to Gabe's 118 for 1900 in three?

 

The Jaylen Waddle who, as a deep threat, still boasts a almost 70% catch percentage compared to Gabe's 54%? 

 

The Jaylen Waddle who has had Tua, Jacoby Brissett, Teddy Bridgewater and Skylar Thompson throwing to him, not one of the best QB's in football?

 

Man.

Or "that guy in Cinci"....... like he said, i "must not watch other teams".....

hes the same guy that will say "yards are yards" and be completely oblivious to the fact that Tee having an extra 25 catches, despite "similar" yardage means, helping keep his QB off his back, helping his #1 avoid bracketing, opening things up for your slot, a chit ton of 1st downs that keep drives alive (our biggest offensive struggle last year

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by BillsShredder83

[FireChans]

29 minutes ago, NewEra said:

No, I don’t have to explain anything anymore than I already have.  It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to put 2 and 2 together here. 

If we would’ve drafted some impact players in rd 2 and 3 as opposed to some of the busts that we drafted we may have beaten KC in jan 2022.  Maybe even KC in 21 and cinci in 23.   
 

no, I can’t scientifically prove that we could have won.  I just know that good players help win titles.  Bums don’t.  There were some very good players available when we selected bums.  Different selections MAY HAVE led to different fates the last few years

 

This teams doesn't have a lot of "needs," from a week to week standpoint.  But from a Superbowl winning standpoint, we absolutely needed 1-2 more guys who earned second contracts or at least produced during their rookie deals to win one over the last couple years.

 

If Cody Ford worked out, or if we kept Teller, or if Spencer Brown took the starting RT job and never looked back, or AJE became an 8 sack guy and consistent edge setter, or Ed played like one of the best DT's in football, or Edmunds played like an All-Pro for multiple seasons etc. etc. etc.

 

We have a lot of solid guys. Beane is good at finding solid guys.  We needed, and still need, stars. You are 100% correct, IMO.

6 minutes ago, BillsShredder83 said:

Or "that guy in Cinci"....... like he said, i "must not watch other teams".....

hes the same guy that will say "yards are yards" and be completely oblivious to the fact that Tee having an extra 25 catches, despite "similar" yardage means, helping keep his QB off his back, helping his #1 avoid bracketing, opening things up for your slot, a chit ton of 1st downs that keep drives alive (our biggest offensive struggle last year

 

Tee also has 1000 more yards....in less games.

Edited August 4, 2023 by FireChans

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

This teams doesn't have a lot of "needs," from a week to week standpoint.  But from a Superbowl winning standpoint, we absolutely needed 1-2 more guys who earned second contracts or at least produced during their rookie deals to win one over the last couple years.

 

If Cody Ford worked out, or if we kept Teller, or if Spencer Brown took the starting RT job and never looked back, or AJE became an 8 sack guy and consistent edge setter, or Ed played like one of the best DT's in football, or Edmunds played like an All-Pro for multiple seasons etc. etc. etc.

 

We have a lot of solid guys. Beane is good at finding solid guys.  We needed, and still need, stars. You are 100% correct, IMO.

Yes it's overall correct but it's not the whole picture

 

The context is the margins are thin esp when youre drafting where we do (and Chiefs as well)...and they're not exactly smashing those midround picks either

 

difference between Bills' and Chiefs' success can't be explained simply by the disparity in value of 2nd/3rd round draft picks imo

[FireChans]

7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Yes it's overall correct but it's not the whole picture

 

The context is the margins are thin esp when youre drafting where we do (and Chiefs as well)...and they're not exactly smashing those midround picks either

 

difference between Bills' and Chiefs' success can't be explained simply by the disparity in value of 2nd/3rd round draft picks imo

I agree.  In that context, I would argue the disparity between us and the Chiefs is simply them hitting on OL talent. Creed Humphrey and Trey Smith would both likely start on this team, (you could argue Morse I suppose, but with his age and concussion history he's a timebomb imo)

 

There has never been a year where our OL has been better than their OL, on the whole. And some folks would say, "we don't emphasize it enough" but the proof is in the pudding. We drafted guys like Ford and Brown.  We signed the Spains and Saffolds of the world. We traded away the one guy who would've been a slam dunk for our roster. They drafted good OL players and kept them.

 

It's no surprise the best Bills' season (AFCCG in 2020) was when we had our best OL and our best WR group of this regime.

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by FireChans

[SCBills]

4 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I agree.  In that context, I would argue the disparity between us and the Chiefs is simply them hitting on OL talent. Creed Humphrey and Trey Smith would both likely start on this team, (you could argue Morse I suppose, but with his age and concussion history he's a timebomb imo)

 

There has never been a year where our OL has been better than their OL, on the whole. And some folks would say, "we don't emphasize it enough" but the proof is in the pudding. We drafted guys like Ford and Brown.  We signed the Spains and Saffolds of the world. We traded away the one guy who would've been a slam dunk for our roster. They drafted good OL players and kept them.

 

It's no surprise the best Bills' season (AFCCG in 2020) was when we had our best OL and our best WR group of this regime.

 

Two main personnel disparities between the Bills and Chiefs..

 

-They prioritized, and hit, on OL.  
 

-They have had a gamewrecker on the DL.
 

 Coaching aside, what’s the saying … “the game is won in the trenches”?

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I agree.  In that context, I would argue the disparity between us and the Chiefs is simply them hitting on OL talent. Creed Humphrey and Trey Smith would both likely start on this team, (you could argue Morse I suppose, but with his age and concussion history he's a timebomb imo)

 

There has never been a year where our OL has been better than their OL, on the whole. And some folks would say, "we don't emphasize it enough" but the proof is in the pudding. We drafted guys like Ford and Brown.  We signed the Spains and Saffolds of the world. We traded away the one guy who would've been a slam dunk for our roster. They drafted good OL players and kept them.

 

It's no surprise the best Bills' season (AFCCG in 2020) was when we had our best OL and our best WR group of this regime.

 

100%

 

it's a lesson these guys should have learned by now imo: in terms of importance

 

Investing in oline>>>investing on defense

[BullBuchanan]

On 8/3/2023 at 8:57 AM, BuffaloBillyG said:

Which one? Not which position...which player that was available at that pick should have been taken? Or just take one for the sake of taking one? 

The right pick was taking Trenton Simpson when we created a massive hole at the position. Instead the Ravens took him and we all know they have terrible judgement when it comes to front 7 personnel.

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Two main personnel disparities between the Bills and Chiefs..

 

-They prioritized, and hit, on OL.  
 

-They have had a gamewrecker on the DL.
 

 Coaching aside, what’s the saying … “the game is won in the trenches”?

We prioritized plenty. Just haven't hit plenty. Which sucks even worse lmao.

 

Von/Ed were supposed to be our answer for #2. Maybe this year is the year.

[SCBills]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

We prioritized plenty. Just haven't hit plenty. Which sucks even worse lmao.

 

Von/Ed were supposed to be our answer for #2. Maybe this year is the year.

Yea .. I can’t fault Beane for last year on the DL.  If KC lost Jones for the season, they don’t win the Super Bowl either. 
 

OL .. eh, I can’t agree.  KC has been willing to pay elite LT money and elite G money for Brown and Thuney, along with taking a Center people labeled as “can’t miss” high.  

They hit on Trey Smith, because they are willing to take risks… something I hope doesn’t happen again with Justyn Ross.

 

Weve paid good money to Dawkins and Morse, but up until this past year, went stop gap at Guard and bet on a raw RD3 pick at RT. 
 

Some if it is they hit on Smith, while we are wait and see on Brown .. but they’ve also shelled out big money in addition to a high draft pick.