Outside of MLB, Where are the Bills Worse in 2023?

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

15 hours ago, jwhit34 said:

It has been fascinating to hear many, especially in the national media, state things like the Super Bowl window is closing for the Bills, the division has caught up to them, etc. Looking at the roster objectively and factoring in some of the TC news (and not overreacting to news out of camp), it is difficult to find an area of the team that should be worse in '23 than it was in '22 except MLB:

 

QB - Unless you think J Allen has had his career year(s) he will be no worse than the same.

RB - To err on side of being conservative, about the same though the optimist in me thinks Cook will be at least as good as Singletary and Harris/Murray > Rookie Cook/Hines/Moss

WR - Better - Diggs/Davis at worst the same, Harty/Sherfield/Shakir should be better than McKenzie/rookie Shakir/??? (last spot revolving door in '22)

OL - Better and better depth. McGovern a big upgrade, I think Torrence starts and Brown will be better. Only concern would be that we have seen peak Morse and Dawkins and their ceiling is probably the same. The interior OL depth is way better.

TE - I have 2 words for you Dalton  Kincaid - excitingly better. He very well could be the best addition to offense since Diggs (funny how that happens when you spend a first round pick on offense). 

DL - All back so at worst same but Floyd and Ford should make it better. Need Von Miller to come back at same level as '22. Contract year for Epenesa.

LBs - Worse without Edmunds

DBs - Better because of health of White, Poyer and Hyde, and another year of experience for Elam, Benford and Jackson make this possibly the most improved unit. 

Specialists - same guys 

Coaching - Dorsey year 2 better, McDermott calling defense > Frazier

 

One other comment about Elam: it is entirely possible that CB2 is a competition more so because Jackson and Benford have outperformed expectations rather than Elam having been a significant underperformer. I think the narrative needs to change. By all accounts Elam is having a pretty good camp and his performance in the playoffs last year was very good. The coaches recognize that. There aren't too many teams in the league that have 4-5 starter-worthy CBs, the Bills seem to have that with White, Johnson, Elam, Jackson and Benford. They do seem to have a knack of drafting roster-worthy DBs. 

 

I agree with most that there will most likely be a steep dropoff left by Tremaine Edmunds but I think AJ Klein will get the start so at least we'll have a veteran there. Another dropoff will be at returner, losing Hines definitely sucks but isn't irreplacable. Other than that I think we really did well at OL, DL adding more weapons for Allen and the RB room looks really good also. I'm ready to get this season started! 

[mike22nc]

The biggest addition may be Tre White almost two years removed from his injury.

When he returned last year he wasn’t great. At 28 years old and after another off-season working to get back to form, he should be able to return to the player he was before the injury, which will be huge for this secondary.

[Matt_In_NH]

19 hours ago, ngbills said:

The debatable:

WR - A lot of hope in Harty and Sherfield. If we flipped the script and last year had Harty/Sherfield and replaced with McK/Crowder/Brown we would believe that was an upgrade. I think folks are stuck on the we cant get worse mindset or "obviously" last years guys sucked.

RB - Similar to WR. People saw enough of Singletary. But he could be better than any RB we have on the roster. I am hopeful as a group this position is better,

OL - Repeat as stated above. The new is obviously better than the old. However, Saffold was an ex-pro bowler with high hopes. S Brown was expected to be an all pro. A year later we have a rookie that hopefully can contribute right away and a bunch of similar guys as we have seen in the past. Biggest concern is RT as if Brown cant protect the edge we are no using RB's and TE's to help which limits the offense even more. 

 

Worse:

LB - Edmunds is a big loss at a position that was already not deep. Outside of Milano we have a bunch of JAG's to nobody's. 

 

Better:

DL - Floyd and Ford are good additions

DB - Rapp is better depth at S

TE - Kincaid is upgrade assuming he is on the field which seems like he will be

 

No change

QB - Back up Keenum vs Back up Allen 

K - No changes

I think if Crowder had stayed healthy you can have a point but the reality is the guy did not play.  Sherfield is an upgrade over Kumerow.  Harty is more talented than mckenzie but the major concern with him is health.   He has struggled to stay available.   I think you have a pint with RB.  But I do like Harris over Singletary by a smidge.   He brings a little more physicality.  But the difference is this year the reigns will be handed over to cook and if he continues an upward trajectory RB may be stronger.  

[eball]

20 hours ago, boyst said:

I think the dark horse is WR. I think it will be equal to last year. I don't see enough improvement on paper right now. 

 

I don’t think you can put the WRs in a vacuum; you have to include the TE room and the addition of Kincaid will make the overall passing game much stronger — as will, I believe, the increased use of Cook as a pass catcher.

 

And even if we’re just discussing WRs, Harty/Sherfield > McKenzie and Davis was hampered last year by his boo-boo foot.

 

The Bills’ offense should be noticeably better, IMO.

 

[78thealltimegreat]

22 hours ago, wppete said:

Losing Edmunds is going to hurt. 

I disagree greatly Tremaine was a tackle chaser not a tackle maker 

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Your last paragraph summed it up pretty much… they may be better but only slightly if that,  and not sure it’s really enough to move the needle.

 

Getting to the SB will depend on how well the offensive line plays and if someone outside of Diggs emerges in the receiving game.

 

And depend on the Bills peaking at the right point in the post season. Even with all the injuries they were 13-3 last year and lost those 3 by a combined 8 points. They then played their worst game in the playoffs. You can't do that. 

[Bobby Hooks]

22 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Who says we are worse at MLB?  

 

Edmunds is extremely overrated and that's why we let him walk.

 

Anyone WITH SPEED can fit into his slot in that system and achieve similar results.

 

 

I don’t know how anyone who watched our games last year didn’t notice a huge drop off when Edmunds wasn’t playing. 
 

I’m not a big Edmunds guy, in fact I was hoping we wouldn’t sign him. BUT, we didn’t really do much to fill the void and all I can think about was how badly it looked when he wasn’t in the lineup. 

[frostbitmic]

Losing Hines for the year will likely hurt the return game.

 

Special teams - who will replace Taiwan and TD Jesus ?    J/K

 

Outside of MLB and possibly the return game, this team is the same or better everywhere.

[The Jokeman]

22 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This is a great point. One I'd not given a lot of thought to actually, but both Singletary and Zack Moss who we traded mid-season were very good pass protectors. Harris is solid in that regard but Cook struggled as a rookie. In his prime Latavius Murray was a very good pass protector. One of the best in fact. Hopefully he retains that ability. That might get him on the 53. 

Harris is no slouch when it comes to pass blocking, he was voted best pass blocking RB award from PFF a few years ago https://www.nbcsportsboston.com/nfl/new-england-patriots/damien-harris-is-the-best-rb-in-the-nfl-according-to-pff/167660/

[DeltaDigital]

10 hours ago, BillsShredder83 said:

I didn't want to pay the man, but pretending he didn't eat up 66.6% of the field from the middle, is going to be a wake up call for a lot of us.

 

That said, $1 spent on the offense adds the same amount of points, that $2 keeps off the board, and is more reliable production (IMO).

 

We don't need a world class defense. Create pressure. Get some stops. Force some mistakes by playing a bit loose, and that'll be enough to get the job done

I agree with all except the 66% thing. so what if he "ate up" 66.6%.... didn't stop Tyreek hill, doesnt stop burrow, doesnt stop TN at the goal line with the game on the line, doesn't create any impact whatsoever... good qb's ate that guy alive. Yes, he's a large man, Yes hes athletic, but he aint got the noodle to make an impact. 2/3 is only HOF worthy in baseball. 

[Robert Paulson]

23 hours ago, wppete said:

Losing Edmunds is going to hurt. 

Not as much as people think. Missed the right hole  more than average, could not shake a blocker relative to his size, tricked by qb eyes more than he should have been, not a splash play guy like Milano. 

 

We will miss his wing span in the central zone but that's about it.

[BADOLBILZ]

 

As a Yankees fan........let me tell you from experience........when you have a number of older players and guys bouncing back from injuries at key positions........you don't know what you have until they get on the field in-season and show you.    

 

So I will pass on "where are we worse" because the Bills have A LOT of players either in the back half of their prime or well past it chronologically.

 

Particularly on all levels of the defense and at C and LT on offense.   

 

I've said it many times though...........I don't know how anyone can declare them better at WR when their reserves are low pedigree vets with less career production than guys like Crowder or McKenzie(who were a net negative last season) and a second year vet in Shakir who seems a bit less promising than he was as a rookie.

 

The passing game will swing heavily on how the Kincaid at slot receiver plan works.    If he is more like a Kelce........then it may work.   If he is like Gesicki.........or even like a Jimmy Graham when the league adapted.......guys who couldn't force teams to use LB's in coverage and didn't excel against defensive back coverage.........then it's probably going to be a lot of off-schedule offense this season, IMO.

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by BADOLBILZ

[mjt328]

There are multiple things that obviously could go wrong.

Injuries are always a possibility.  Aging veterans could start to decline.  Etc.

 

But on paper, the Bills do look better than last year.

[Dopey]

23 hours ago, DeltaDigital said:

yea, now we get to see some half-drafted JAG make tackles 15 yards past the LOS and wag his arms around travis kelce while he runs through the middle of the defense. oh no, how are we ever going to replace 2 turn overs (maybe) a season with zero FF and 7 tackles behind the LOS? DOOMED. 

 

Damn you, Edmunds. Oh, wait, Kelce and Lamar treat Milano like their biotch too?!??!? No way. Not Milano!

Stop it. Edmunds is gone already. 

 

 

 

 

[SCBills]

26 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

As a Yankees fan........let me tell you from experience........when you have a number of older players and guys bouncing back from injuries at key positions........you don't know what you have until they get on the field in-season and show you.    

 

So I will pass on "where are we worse" because the Bills have A LOT of players either in the back half of their prime or well past it chronologically.

 

Particularly on all levels of the defense and at C and LT on offense.   

 

I've said it many times though...........I don't know how anyone can declare them better at WR when their reserves are low pedigree vets with less career production than guys like Crowder or McKenzie(who were a net negative last season) and a second year rookie who seems a bit less promising than he was as a rookie.

 

The passing game will swing heavily on how the Kincaid at slot receiver plan works.    If he is more like a Kelce........then it may work.   If he is like Gesicki.........or even like a Jimmy Graham when the league adapted.......guys who couldn't force teams to use LB's in coverage and didn't excel against defensive back coverage.........then it's probably going to be a lot of off-schedule offense this season, IMO.

 

Mitch Morse is 31 and Dion Dawkins is 29.   The best OL for the Fins is 32 (Armstead).  Best OL for the Chiefs is 30 (Thuney).  If you want to talk about Morse injury history.. valid. 

 

We are not old on Offense.  

 

Year 2 RB1 and two veterans.

 

Top 6 OL are the listed above Dawkins/Morse, along with Brown and Torrence on rookie contracts and McGovern/Bates entering their "prime" years.  

 

Diggs will be 30 this Fall, but I don't think anyone is worried about his age right now.  Davis/Shakir/Shorter on rookie contracts.  Harty is 25 and Sherfield is 27.  

 

Knox just entering his prime and Kincaid is a rookie.  

 

Josh Allen is 27.

 

-------------

 

Yes, on Defense, I agree.   Our defense is depending on some older guys/guys coming off injury, in Von - Hyde - Poyer - White.  Those are 4 key guys that likely determine whether or not this defense is "elite". 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

20 hours ago, ngbills said:

I am not convinced they are either. Especially if it is framed as looking how we entered last year vs this year. Coming off the Davis playoff game I think everyone thought WR1 and WR2 were stacked and we just needed some help in the slot. Crowder had multiple years of production in a Josh Allen-less offense so that seemed to be a huge upgrade over Beasley. Add in McK and the wrinkles we expected. Shakir was the steal of the draft. Even mentions of Hodgins. 

 

This year we have added:

Harty and his 2 rec's last year. The year before was a career high of 36. 4 years in the league and never a 100yd game. But we expect him to be a huge threat all the sudden. Would be great but most likely he puts up Mck numbers. 

Sherfield who is on his 4th team. Has exceeded expectations when needed but he should be a teams 5th/6th WR not someone you bank on to contribute. Again we are banking on a guy to become something he has not been after 4 years in the league. 

Kincaid I will include him in this conversation as he could be the most impactful. But it also bucks history as TE's usually take some time to develop. Fingers crossed. 

 

It will be great if it all works out. My hope is the scheme is adjusted to help more than I expect an upgrade in the WR position. 

TEs typically take time to develop because they need to pick up the blocking schemes…that’s not really relevant for Kincaid. 
 

harty had 500+ receiving yards in 13 total games(1 start) on the worst passing offense in the league in 2021.  He got injured last year and everybody forgot about him.  I would take that over McKenzie who couldn’t put up those numbers in one of the best offenses in the league. 
 

crowder I wouldn’t even consider as he missed pretty much all of last season.  I think it’s hard to call this season anything other than an upgrade at wr even with modest expectations for Kincaid. 
 

 

[Pokebball]

The OL is going to have to gel as a unit to be better. It should, but if it doesn't Josh will be running for his life as much as he did last year

[ColoradoBills]

Camp is a week old, and I guess my age has tempered me not over-react to much at this time of year.  Rosters "on paper" are just that.

Even the preseason games don't tell me much as to how the team will be playing in the playoffs and the playoffs is all that matters.

 

Are there some questions regarding the starters and prime depth?  You betcha.  Do any of us really know what will ultimately happen?

I have to give it a resounding "no".  That uncertainty is the prime reason I love to watch the games as the season progresses!

 

For the guys on the 90-man roster all I have to say is keeping working hard and give us your best.  Stay as healthy as possible and give me

the entertainment that it's all about.  Football brings out the hopeful "little kid" in me and at this time of year I cannot help but be hopeful!

Go Bills!

[boyst]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And depend on the Bills peaking at the right point in the post season. Even with all the injuries they were 13-3 last year and lost those 3 by a combined 8 points. They then played their worst game in the playoffs. You can't do that. 

We peaked week 1 and were atop of the world week 2. Id even argue week 3 we were still kings. We were still solid until we got to green bay. And that's when we fell flat on our face.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

39 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

As a Yankees fan........let me tell you from experience........when you have a number of older players and guys bouncing back from injuries at key positions........you don't know what you have until they get on the field in-season and show you.    

 

So I will pass on "where are we worse" because the Bills have A LOT of players either in the back half of their prime or well past it chronologically.

 

Particularly on all levels of the defense and at C and LT on offense.   

 

I've said it many times though...........I don't know how anyone can declare them better at WR when their reserves are low pedigree vets with less career production than guys like Crowder or McKenzie(who were a net negative last season) and a second year rookie who seems a bit less promising than he was as a rookie.

 

The passing game will swing heavily on how the Kincaid at slot receiver plan works.    If he is more like a Kelce........then it may work.   If he is like Gesicki.........or even like a Jimmy Graham when the league adapted.......guys who couldn't force teams to use LB's in coverage and didn't excel against defensive back coverage.........then it's probably going to be a lot of off-schedule offense this season, IMO.

McKenzie has never had a year in his career as good as the 2021 harty had on the dumpster fire passing game saints in only 11 games lol

 

Crowder hardly even played…why is he now retroactively getting talked up? Why are we comparing our expectations going into 2022 with what we have now when we played a full season with those guys?  Gabe Davis is still gabe Davis for better or worse, crowder never played and is gone, mckenzie was bad and is gone.  
 

We added the best pass catcher in the draft,a receiver who was ramping up in 2021 then got hurt last year, and a pretty capable player from a division rival that we likely have a lot of insider knowledge of. how can that not be better than what we saw on the field last year?