Outside of MLB, Where are the Bills Worse in 2023?

[Saxum]

17 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

The Bills defense will be good no matter who the MLB is because the players around him are very experienced in the scheme. He’ll be in the right position more often than not. We saw it last year with all the injuries. They still had good stats. In the playoffs we need someone to make plays but the regular season should go much like previous years.

 

The scheme will be changing although certain elements will not (i.e. interchangeable safeties).  It was built around Edmunds ability to cover more space making some throws more risky.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

6 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

I must be the only guy who things the WRs aren’t actually better.

 

We’ve not seen them play yet so how could you?

3 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

The scheme will be changing although certain elements will not (i.e. interchangeable safeties).  It was built around Edmunds ability to cover more space making some throws more risky.

Same defense, different game plan and game day play caller.

 

 I think we’ll be tighter in coverage. Rapp will actually take a lot of Edmunds coverage snaps. 
 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

I think we made huge strides this offseason but it was mostly sneaky good signings that the national media doesn’t pay any attention to lol they only care about the big name splash signings.

 

leonard Floyd and Taylor rapp were pretty big gets and I don’t see anyone outside of buffalo really talking about them 

[ngbills]

4 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

I must be the only guy who things the WRs aren’t actually better.

 

I am not convinced they are either. Especially if it is framed as looking how we entered last year vs this year. Coming off the Davis playoff game I think everyone thought WR1 and WR2 were stacked and we just needed some help in the slot. Crowder had multiple years of production in a Josh Allen-less offense so that seemed to be a huge upgrade over Beasley. Add in McK and the wrinkles we expected. Shakir was the steal of the draft. Even mentions of Hodgins. 

 

This year we have added:

Harty and his 2 rec's last year. The year before was a career high of 36. 4 years in the league and never a 100yd game. But we expect him to be a huge threat all the sudden. Would be great but most likely he puts up Mck numbers. 

Sherfield who is on his 4th team. Has exceeded expectations when needed but he should be a teams 5th/6th WR not someone you bank on to contribute. Again we are banking on a guy to become something he has not been after 4 years in the league. 

Kincaid I will include him in this conversation as he could be the most impactful. But it also bucks history as TE's usually take some time to develop. Fingers crossed. 

 

It will be great if it all works out. My hope is the scheme is adjusted to help more than I expect an upgrade in the WR position. 

[MJS]

23 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I will give Singletary props on that.  He didn't start out that way, but he improved a lot in year 2 and by year 3 I think you could confidently say he was a strong pass blocking RB.

 

Slenderness doesn't matter.  Fred Jackson famously leveled JJ Watt. Lil' Dirty McKenzie laid some licks down when called upon to pass protect.

 

It's a matter of 1) knowing the scheme - it isn't simple, the RB has to decode very quickly who his blocking assignment might be pre-snap and then understand the impact of any defensive adjustments post-snap on that assignment 2) having quick feet to maintain a position of leverage 3) being fearless to get in the way

Fred Jackson was way bigger than Cook. Slenderness does matter. Some short running backs can block well because they have a low center of gravity, but they are still built pretty solidly.

[boyst]

30 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I don’t know. I don’t remember much get rid of Edmunds talk because it wasn’t realistic. But he was definitely the focus for many fans before last season.

 

He also didn’t grade very well in 2021 which had little impact on the defense. What I’m saying is the experience of the defense in this scheme is rare. We dont have to worry about MLB because the players and coaches will give him support. 

 

 

What?

I don't think he has his best season in 2022. Likely due to poor communication and cohesiveness with non-Hyde/Poyer players 

[Saxum]

51 minutes ago, ngbills said:

 

Harty and his 2 rec's last year. The year before was a career high of 36. 4 years in the league and never a 100yd game. But we expect him to be a huge threat all the sudden. Would be great but most likely he puts up Mck numbers. 

 

 

Isaiah McKenzie was a feast or famine WR; I cannot see Harty matching McKenzie's performance against New England (11 catches on 12 targets for 125 yards and a touchdown) where the GOAT DC & HC had no solution for him.  He might replace Hines for a year but that is it and I think he was overpaid.  

 

[DeltaDigital]

4 hours ago, ngbills said:

 

That is a very naïve mindset. It is one thing to say you would not may him $20M per, but to pretend that he is no different than a guy like Dodson, Spector, etc makes no sense. Edmunds is being paid like a top LB in the league because he is one. If he was not getting paid like he is there is no doubt he would be the starting MLB for the Bills. 

nah. fam. you're just in love with his size. think they'd let a GAME CHANGING MLB walk, regardless of the price? no, they wouldnt. stop with the edumnds love. severely over rated for his lack of impact. HIGH value QB's saw him for what he was, a no skill, sorta cover MLB that had zero ball skills. HOW MANY ints did we watch him drop when his terrible instnitcts actually led him to the proper position, only to drop the ball or whiff? lets not even TALK about how mediocre guards would wash him COMPELTELY out of running plays or rushes... guy sucked and im super happy hes gone given A: the price tag and B: his draft status. NOT. WORTH. IT. 

[EmotionallyUnstable]

Curious to see what Isabella has in his tank. Was at camp today. Guy is smaller than I thought (not as small as Harty though) and was super quick. 
 

With the Hines injury, I wonder if there is room on the roster for a guy like him > Shakir 

[DeltaDigital]

4 hours ago, ngbills said:

 

That is a very naïve mindset. It is one thing to say you would not may him $20M per, but to pretend that he is no different than a guy like Dodson, Spector, etc makes no sense. Edmunds is being paid like a top LB in the league because he is one. If he was not getting paid like he is there is no doubt he would be the starting MLB for the Bills. 

 

Furthermore... 2018 was a GREAT year from the at the time 19 year old rookie MLB. His play did not pickup, on the contrary his statistics had a SLOW decline. 
OH MAN, how are we EVER going to replace 6 TFL *less than .5 a game) and 1, yes 1 interception that came in garbage time and didnt affect the outcome of the game WHATSOEVER. 102 tackles, delcined steadily from 2020. you can get 102 tackles and 1 turn over with minimal critical moment stops from just about anyone. would YOU pay 20M a season for this? this is AVERAGE at best, despite having freak size and athleticism. ol boy didnt have it where it counts, and that's between the ears. sorry. beane sees what any objective fan sees, a big dude that cannot put up numbers. its not a coincidence they let him walk. 

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

I must be the only guy who things the WRs aren’t actually better.

 

 

 

Yeah it remains to be seen.    People are comparing expectations of players on August 1 2023 against the reality of 2022.    At this time last year there was anticipation that Jamison Crowder would get healthy and return to his past dynamic form.   Or that McKenzie was ready to build on that huge game he had against the Patriots in Foxboro now that Beasley was gone.   Shakir was seen as this steal of s draft pick.   Expectations were very high........just a lot of people with short memories and recency bias.  

 

We will see if Sharty and Sherfield pan out.   They have averaged 189 yards receiving per season over their combined 9 years.   And not far from their career average.........combined for just 430 total even just this last season.   This far into careers.......players tend to be who they have been........there is just a lot of best-case-scenario optimism projection going on.   Also, I'd say Shakir's star has definitely fallen now that we've all seen that he probably isn't the second coming of Hines Ward or whatever people expected he'd be.

 

It likely all comes down to Kincaid when it comes to receivers/TE's who are most likely to make a big impact.

 

 

[machine gun kelly]

9 hours ago, jwhit34 said:

It has been fascinating to hear many, especially in the national media, state things like the Super Bowl window is closing for the Bills, the division has caught up to them, etc. Looking at the roster objectively and factoring in some of the TC news (and not overreacting to news out of camp), it is difficult to find an area of the team that should be worse in '23 than it was in '22 except MLB:

 

QB - Unless you think J Allen has had his career year(s) he will be no worse than the same.

RB - To err on side of being conservative, about the same though the optimist in me thinks Cook will be at least as good as Singletary and Harris/Murray > Rookie Cook/Hines/Moss

WR - Better - Diggs/Davis at worst the same, Harty/Sherfield/Shakir should be better than McKenzie/rookie Shakir/??? (last spot revolving door in '22)

OL - Better and better depth. McGovern a big upgrade, I think Torrence starts and Brown will be better. Only concern would be that we have seen peak Morse and Dawkins and their ceiling is probably the same. The interior OL depth is way better.

TE - I have 2 words for you Dalton  Kincaid - excitingly better. He very well could be the best addition to offense since Diggs (funny how that happens when you spend a first round pick on offense). 

DL - All back so at worst same but Floyd and Ford should make it better. Need Von Miller to come back at same level as '22. Contract year for Epenesa.

LBs - Worse without Edmunds

DBs - Better because of health of White, Poyer and Hyde, and another year of experience for Elam, Benford and Jackson make this possibly the most improved unit. 

Specialists - same guys 

Coaching - Dorsey year 2 better, McDermott calling defense > Frazier

 

One other comment about Elam: it is entirely possible that CB2 is a competition more so because Jackson and Benford have outperformed expectations rather than Elam having been a significant underperformer. I think the narrative needs to change. By all accounts Elam is having a pretty good camp and his performance in the playoffs last year was very good. The coaches recognize that. There aren't too many teams in the league that have 4-5 starter-worthy CBs, the Bills seem to have that with White, Johnson, Elam, Jackson and Benford. They do seem to have a knack of drafting roster-worthy DBs. 

Im not willing to say we are worse or better at MLB, it’s more of wait and see for me.  Far too many hot takes, knee jerk reactions for me.

 

The last couple of years. Edmunds was widely considered a pariah and weak point for this defense.  Now we’re horrible for losing him.

 

Prior to Milano getting his contract (which was under the spotrac market valuation), he was just a JAG, easily replaced, too small, what happens a year later?  1st team all pro and considered one of the best Wil LBers in the league.

[Thurman#1]

10 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Who says we are worse at MLB?  

 

Edmunds is extremely overrated and that's why we let him walk.

 

Anyone WITH SPEED can fit into his slot in that system and achieve similar results.

 

 

 

 

It really is NOT.

 

The $18M AAV contract is the reason we let him walk.

 

They've made it abundantly clear, over and over and over again, that they loved Tremaine, they wanted him back, and they couldn't afford it and stay in decent cap shape.

 

Who says we are worse at MLB? Everyone. 

 

Hopefully the new guys will step up, though, as they see time and reps.

 

 

56 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

Im not willing to say we are worse or better at MLB, it’s more of wait and see for me.  Far too many hot takes, knee jerk reactions for me.

 

The last couple of years. Edmunds was widely considered a pariah and weak point for this defense.  Now we’re horrible for losing him.

 

Prior to Milano getting his contract (which was under the spotrac market valuation), he was just a JAG, easily replaced, too small, what happens a year later?  1st team all pro and considered one of the best Wil LBers in the league.

 

 

Nobody thought around the league Edmunds was a pariah and a weak point. It was only a group of folks here in Buffalo who mostly wanted someone more like Brandon Spikes.

 

You're right that things could change, but right now it absolutely looks like we're worse off there. That's no hot take or knee jerk reaction.

 

Oh, and Milano was in no way whatsoever considered a JAG before he got his contract. He's been excellent really since the middle of year two.

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Thurman#1

[CNYfan]

10 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

It is only MLB that I think the team is definitely weaker on paper. The issue is I think that drop off is significant..... don't love any of our options there now that they have concluded it is too much for Williams as a rookie. I also think there remain questions about the secondary just because three older guys coming off injuries to differing extents is a legit concern. I hope they can play good football and stay healthy but it isn't a sure thing. 

Getting older and banged up back there.

[Freddie's Dead]

I think we're weaker at WR, until proven otherwise.  

[NewEra]

11 hours ago, wppete said:

Losing Edmunds is going to hurt. 

It will hurt at times. No doubt.

 

Luckily our pass rush and DL will be better.  Our safeties will be better.  Our corners will most likely be better.  Most importantly, I believe our defensive play calling and scheme will be better

[billsfan89]

I think you can make the case at safety that the Bills are more injury prone and of course a year older. But I think for the most part the Bills despite the loss at MLB and the concern at safety are better in several other areas. 
 

Offensive line, pass catcher, corner (more experience and Tre further removed from injury) and DT the team has improved. 

[Paup 1995MVP]

11 hours ago, SCBills said:

MLB is the only spot we got worse at.  
 

Our secondary has question marks, which - if answered positively - puts us in the running for a Top 5 unit in the league. 
 

Milano is an elite OLB. 
 

DL is vastly improved, and if Von comes back at even 80% of what he was … this is a Top 5 DL (on paper) with Von, Rousseau, Floyd, Oliver, Jones and Ford.  

If you take into account Allen & Gabe’s injuries last year, with the additions of Kincaid, Torrence and McGovern .. I think it’s safe to say that every positional unit on Offense is much improved.  
 

Singletary isn’t bad.. but I hated him on this offense.  Give me speed or power at that position.   We now have both.  

Areas of concern:

 

-MLB 

-CB2 

-OL 

-Health (Von, Hyde, Tre)

 

We should be able to live with the drop off at MLB.  We didn’t invest heavily there, and we will have weaknesses moving forward with Allen’s contract hitting. 
 

CB2 and OL do not have excuses..  CB2 should be a strength given the investment and OL should, at the very least, be a middle of the pack unit once we get into the regular season. 

 

Good analysis SC.  You are usually very sharp with your football opinions and discussion.  Edmunds had one good season.  He is athletic but not intuitive.  The game is just not second nature for him.  And he certainly was not worth to us what the Bears were willing to pay him.  Football is still won in the trenches.  With a much improved D Line, one of the guys competing to be the starting MLB, should be able to develop into a solid player.  LB's just don't dominate today's game.  So a guy like Edmunds is only worth so much money.  Interesting to see what he does in Chicago.  I don't like the Bills drafting Bernard and then Williams in the 3rd round.  Not sure what they are watching when these guys don't seem to be able to compete for playing time.  (I personally hope Baylen Spector is our starter.  I think he has the most upside and understands the game.  Kind of like Benford in the secondary.  Although I am an Elam fan as well.)

 

I think the O line has to be much better then last year.  We won't go far unless they play reasonably well.  RT scares me.  The reports on Spencer Brown do not sound encouraging.  And Dawkins needs to up his game too.  Hopefully Shell can compete for some PT at tackle.  Kincaid will be a force.  And I like all 3 of our RB's.  They all are solid.  And when Josh is on, there is noone better in the NFL at QB.  

 

I think we will be plenty prepared and fired up to lay a beatdown on the Jets come opening night.  A big win will set the tempo for the season, and send a message to the league that we are still a team to be taken very seriously.  And the team to beat in the AFC East.

[BillsShredder83]

12 hours ago, DeltaDigital said:

yea, now we get to see some half-drafted JAG make tackles 15 yards past the LOS and wag his arms around travis kelce while he runs through the middle of the defense. oh no, how are we ever going to replace 2 turn overs (maybe) a season with zero FF and 7 tackles behind the LOS? DOOMED. 

I didn't want to pay the man, but pretending he didn't eat up 66.6% of the field from the middle, is going to be a wake up call for a lot of us.

 

That said, $1 spent on the offense adds the same amount of points, that $2 keeps off the board, and is more reliable production (IMO).

 

We don't need a world class defense. Create pressure. Get some stops. Force some mistakes by playing a bit loose, and that'll be enough to get the job done

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Safety may be worse in that both starters are old and coming off significant injuries.
DE is worse than the start of last year as Miller is still unable to play.  Overall when he comes back the DL should be better than last year.

RB on paper should be better. Singletary wasn’t great but he wasn’t bad either. Stayed healthy. Decent receiving threat.