Training Camp 8/1 9:45

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, BananaB said:

We basically added one guy to our oline, other than that it’s just depth. Maybe Torrence will pan out but having a rookie next to Brown is very scary. All the depth players we sign don’t do anything to help the starting lineup, and that what we need. 

It isn't scary having a rookie starting on the offensive line.  It happens every season with a lot of teams.   For the linemen, some guys just have it.   That's why I'm excited about Torrence.   If he's good enough to start, he's going to do nothing but help.   Will he make an occasional mistake?  Sure, but everyone makes mistakes.  If he's good enough to start, he's better than Bates, and that's a good thing.  And as others have said, and I repeated yesterday, the problem with the pass protection has been the middle.   If the middle is solid, and if Dawkins is good enough, having a weak right tackle is a relatively small problem, because that's the easiest direction for Josh to handle the pass rush from. 

[SCBills]

5 minutes ago, BananaB said:

We basically added one guy to our oline, other than that it’s just depth. Maybe Torrence will pan out but having a rookie next to Brown is very scary. All the depth players we sign don’t do anything to help the starting lineup, and that what we need. 

 

No, we didn't basically add one guy to our OL.  

 

Did the Chiefs not build an elite OL (in part) due to drafting two top tier IOL in Creed Humphrey and Trey Smith?

 

By all accounts, Torrence was the best pure Guard in the Draft.  He slid because teams (ours included) value position flex on the OL.  Given we have so much of that, we can take a swing on a guy who can only play Guard.  

 

McGovern is entering his prime years, and is an above average pass blocker / slightly below average run blocker up to this point.    In today's NFL, that's the DNA of a good Offensive Lineman with some further potential.  

 

Bates may start the season at RG, and if he does, ok.. fine.. he's solid.  However, we added two big pieces to the OL.  Two guys who can reasonably be expected to be upgrades to the OL.  

 

No guarantees, and maybe they flop, but two big additions were made.. not one.  

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by SCBills

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

If the Bills listened to every knee jerk reaction every time someone drops a pass there would be no one left on the roster to catch passes.  

Dawkins catches most the balls they throw to him.  

[MasterStrategist]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I think what's lost on the people who insist you are over-reacting to Shakir dropping passes is that he was a ball dropper last year and he needs to be a guy who drops maybe 1 pass in 20 targets.   He's getting just a handful of targets daily so it's notable when he's being noted for dropping some of those few targets.   He won't make it dropping 2 out of every 20 targets.......that's approaching a league worst kinda' drop rate.   

Bring a numbers guy, you should definitely understand that 20 targets isn't credible/far too few to pass judgment on a rookie.  1 fluke pass/drop, and there you go.  His Dolphins drop LY was a momentum killer and inexcusable at the time, but not his MO.

 

Agree a 10% drop rate isn't good at all, but if Shakir only sees 20 targets this year then that clearly means Kincaid/Harty/Sherfield are getting the targets...and nobody will be critiquing Shakirs 20, but the others who are getting looks.

 

Shakir MO has always been solid to great hands.  At Boise St, it was always a plus and his RAC ability.  He also showed well in camp LY, and earlier this May.  Beane has been praising him.

 

I think it's just way too early to pass judgment.  It's overreacting when someone says they're done with a player, especially someone coming into Year 2 who only had 20 targets....and especially when they're making that judgment on twitter reports (which have been inconsistent).  Perhaps the same conclusion will be reached at a later point, but not triggered based on inconsistent twitter reports

[Lost]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

Dawkins catches most the balls they throw to him.  

 

Tommy Doyle has 100% catch rate with the Bills

[Logic]

1 hour ago, nucci said:

ok but guessing defense would remove LBs and replace with DBs with only Allen being able to run the ball. 6 DB, 1 LB for Allen and you're covered. 

Fair.

The only thing I'd point out is that, based on camp reports, Allen has actually handed the ball off to Knox a time or two from this "two TE backfield" formation. Maybe that's the counter if the defense does goes dime formation.

You don't want to be handing it off to your TE too often, of course, but maybe it's something they'd employ occasionally to keep defenses honest.

[34-78-83]

 The thing I've noticed that gets left out of these flash reports is context. Very few of the reports are providing that. For example, one practice day, most of the action was in the red zone (ie. tight space and timing). On another day, the team worked almost exclusively on 1st/2nd down (ie. advantage offense), today it was mostly 3rd and long situations (ie. advantage defense). Context matters.

[HappyDays]

26 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Tweets cause you to feel this way.  You haven’t even seen him play this year and you’re done?   You’re better than that.

 

I agree that it’s frustrating to see tweets about him dropping passes-  but you can’t let social media dictate your feeling about a player. 

 

He had the same problem last year. It's also been a recurring issue at training camp this year and was one of the weaknesses on his scouting report coming out of Boise State. It might just be who he is. I have no patience left for trying to rely on unreliable players. If he had some other elite skill like explosiveness or route running you can live with below average hands, but his skill set overall is just "fine slot WR." Trust me I'm not overreacting to one training camp tweet. All the evidence we have points to the same thing.

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Bring a numbers guy, you should definitely understand that 20 targets isn't credible/far too few to pass judgment on a rookie.  1 fluke pass/drop, and there you go.  His Dolphins drop LY was a momentum killer and inexcusable at the time, but not his MO.

 

Agree a 10% drop rate isn't good at all, but if Shakir only sees 20 targets this year then that clearly means Kincaid/Harty/Sherfield are getting the targets...and nobody will be critiquing Shakirs 20, but the others who are getting looks.

 

Shakir MO has always been solid to great hands.  At Boise St, it was always a plus and his RAC ability.  He also showed well in camp LY, and earlier this May.  Beane has been praising him.

 

I think it's just way too early to pass judgment.  It's overreacting when someone says they're done with a player, especially someone coming into Year 2 who only had 20 targets....and especially when they're making that judgment on twitter reports (which have been inconsistent).  Perhaps the same conclusion will be reached at a later point, but not triggered based on inconsistent twitter reports

Yeah, it's too early, but Bado's point is correct.   A guy like Shakir doesn't create plays; he takes advantage of opportunities that are created by the guys who DO create, like Allen and Diggs and Cook and (we can hope, Kincaid).  If you're a player who takes advantage of opportunities then, well, you have to take advantage.  In other words, you have to catch it when it comes to you.   One drop in 20 may be too much to ask, but I'm concerned when it seems there's a daily drop or two.  

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

 The thing I've noticed that gets left out of these flash reports is context. Very few of the reports are providing that. For example, one practice day, most of the action was in the red zone (ie. tight space and timing). On another day, the team worked almost exclusively on 1st/2nd down (ie. advantage offense), today it was mostly 3rd and long situations (ie. advantage defense). Context matters.

Agree for the most part but parsing intent and tone has always been a reader's responsibility, be it long form reporting/tweets/what have you

[Bangarang]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

He had the same problem last year. It's also been a recurring issue at training camp this year and was one of the weaknesses on his scouting report coming out of Boise State. It might just be who he is. I have no patience left for trying to rely on unreliable players. If he had some other elite skill like explosiveness or route running you can live with below average hands, but his skill set overall is just "fine slot WR." Trust me I'm not overreacting to one training camp tweet. All the evidence we have points to the same thing.

He’s a 5th round pick in his 2nd training camp. Maybe people should manage their expectations better so they wouldn’t feel like they are relying on a player like that.

[BADOLBILZ]

6 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Bring a numbers guy, you should definitely understand that 20 targets isn't credible/far too few to pass judgment on a rookie.  1 fluke pass/drop, and there you go.  His Dolphins drop LY was a momentum killer and inexcusable at the time, but not his MO.

 

Agree a 10% drop rate isn't good at all, but if Shakir only sees 20 targets this year then that clearly means Kincaid/Harty/Sherfield are getting the targets...and nobody will be critiquing Shakirs 20, but the others who are getting looks.

 

Shakir MO has always been solid to great hands.  At Boise St, it was always a plus and his RAC ability.  He also showed well in camp LY, and earlier this May.  Beane has been praising him.

 

I think it's just way too early to pass judgment.  It's overreacting when someone says they're done with a player, especially someone coming into Year 2 who only had 20 targets....and especially when they're making that judgment on twitter reports (which have been inconsistent).  Perhaps the same conclusion will be reached at a later point, but not triggered based on inconsistent twitter reports

 

 

2 out of 20

3 out of 27(counting playoffs)

Being noted for drops in camp.

 

You NOT being a numbers guy........perhaps don't have perspective on how few passes NFL receivers really drop.  

[MasterStrategist]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Yeah, it's too early, but Bado's point is correct.   A guy like Shakir doesn't create plays; he takes advantage of opportunities that are created by the guys who DO create, like Allen and Diggs and Cook and (we can hope, Kincaid).  If you're a player who takes advantage of opportunities then, well, you have to take advantage.  In other words, you have to catch it when it comes to you.   One drop in 20 may be too much to ask, but I'm concerned when it seems there's a daily drop or two.  

My comment was focused on people already being done with him, because of some twitter reports on drops.

 

Yes, he had drops in college...some were bad (like Miami game), some bc he has short arms.  But he has strong/50-50 type hands and a skill set we lack with RAC.

 

We will see what happens, but I think Shakir actually does create plays.  He's good RAC, catching in traffic, and creating separation in routes.  He struggled against reading zones and nuances of being a rookie.

 

I have higher expectations for Dalton, and he's a better player than Shakir.  But Shakir will likely turn out to be our primary slot guy, when Kincaid isn't out there, and used in a variety of ways.

[34-78-83]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Agree for the most part but parsing intent and tone has always been a reader's responsibility, be it long form reporting/tweets/what have you

For short form tweets etc, that's fair, but we both know that typical readers are going to go ahead and do what they do and think either the sky is falling or their guy is going to be the greatest ever. I'd suggest to the typical reader to consider the other variables like down and distance/ situational football before jumping off their bridges :), and find their content from those who provide that level of detail.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

He’s a 5th round pick in his 2nd training camp. Maybe people should manage their expectations better so they wouldn’t feel like they are relying on a player like that.

He's projected to get significant tick id say a little concern is warranted

[SCBills]

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

He had the same problem last year. It's also been a recurring issue at training camp this year and was one of the weaknesses on his scouting report coming out of Boise State. It might just be who he is. I have no patience left for trying to rely on unreliable players. If he had some other elite skill like explosiveness or route running you can live with below average hands, but his skill set overall is just "fine slot WR." Trust me I'm not overreacting to one training camp tweet. All the evidence we have points to the same thing.

 

This.  He was a 5th round pick..  It's not absurd to cut or trade him.   I think a lot of us were blinded by the overreaction of the draft community to us getting him where we did.  

 

 

[nucci]

13 minutes ago, Logic said:

Fair.

The only thing I'd point out is that, based on camp reports, Allen has actually handed the ball off to Knox a time or two from this "two TE backfield" formation. Maybe that's the counter if the defense does goes dime formation.

You don't want to be handing it off to your TE too often, of course, but maybe it's something they'd employ occasionally to keep defenses honest.

Good points but as a defense I wouldn't be scared of handing off to a TE on a running play out of the backfield

[MasterStrategist]

13 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

2 out of 20

3 out of 27(counting playoffs)

Being noted for drops in camp.

 

You NOT being a numbers guy........perhaps don't have perspective on how few passes NFL receivers really drop.  

Ha, I'm more a numbers guy than you trust me on that (you can DM me if you're that interested).

 

Again, 20 targets...way too few to pass judgment.  Being noted for drops, by who? Did you see them? You believe everyone's twitter reporting?  Because just last night you said we shouldn't believe the Gabe Davis hype being reported by those same ppl.

 

If you have your mind made up on 21 targets and some random twitter reports, that's a you problem.

 

 

EDIT:  this is from just after the draft, but some Beane comments on Shakir and "1" sample video in there.  If we want to rip on his 1 drop, let's see his great catch too...that was clutch. 

 

Beane has spoken highly about Shakir, unprovoked, on several occasions.  Unless he has a horrible preseason, he's going to be a key player on offense.  Likely splitting time in the slot.

 

 https://www.google.com/amp/s/heavy.com/sports/buffalo-bills/bills-brandon-beane-khalil-shakir-bigger-role/amp/

Edited August 1, 2023 by MasterStrategist

[Solomon Grundy]

2 hours ago, The Wiz said:

Hopefully that just means AJE has gotten better and not the other option.

Maybe being pushed by Shane Ray?

[John from Riverside]

21 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

No, we didn't basically add one guy to our OL.  

 

Did the Chiefs not build an elite OL (in part) due to drafting two top tier IOL in Creed Humphrey and Trey Smith?

 

By all accounts, Torrence was the best pure Guard in the Draft.  He slid because teams (ours included) value position flex on the OL.  Given we have so much of that, we can take a swing on a guy who can only play Guard.  

 

McGovern is entering his prime years, and is an above average pass blocker / slightly below average run blocker up to this point.    In today's NFL, that's the DNA of a good Offensive Lineman with some further potential.  

 

Bates may start the season at RG, and if he does, ok.. fine.. he's solid.  However, we added two big pieces to the OL.  Two guys who can reasonably be expected to be upgrades to the OL.  

 

No guarantees, and maybe they flop, but two big additions were made.. not one.  

 

I would also argue that we really attacked the death, especially at guard with known veteran players like Edwards