Training Camp 8/1 9:45

[Shaw66]

25 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

This is also why it's puzzling to draft a cover corner to play zone when that cover corner has little to no history of playing zone, and when it certainly isn't his strength.

 

 

No, it isn't puzzling.  They studied him, they interviewed him, they talked to his coaches.   They did a lot of research and decided he was a guy who could play the scheme they wanted, that he could learn it.   That could make him a great corner, like White - another cover corner who learned the defense.  Whether they were right remains to be seen.  

[newcam2012]

17 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Your post is overly pessimistic.  Per usual.  We’ve had a top 2 scoring defense 3 of the last 4 years.  
 

We have the toughest schedule in the league and face the best QBs we’ve faced in a season…. So I get where you come from- but count on us having one of the best defenses in the league if healthy. We’ve proven to be a top D year in year out.   People should be optimistic based on our defensive track record. 
 

You hate the HC/DC - so you’re obviously biased

My bad your are right. The defense will be rated nicely during the regular season. 

 

Come playoff time it's a whole different animal and theme. 

 

Look back at that vaunted top defense of the Bills entering the playoffs. Fraizer defenses come playoff time had more holes in it then Swiss cheese. 

 

But I get it, McD will be the savior on defense. Just like when he took over the defense in 13 seconds in KC. 

 

But I'm the biased unreasonable guy here. Oh OK if you say so.

Edited August 2, 2023 by newcam2012

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

We were one of the best defenses last year and had something close to 40 games missed by Miller, White, Oliver, Hyde and Poyer.  That’s 4 All Pros for a significant amount of time.

I'm not saying the defense will be bad. I'm saying come playoff time I will have little confidence in the Bills defense. They have not been dependable or very good when playing the upper echolen teams. 

 

I'm banking on Allen and the offense to win future playoff games. 

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

We were a top 6 defense last year and that was without our starting secondary playing a single game together. 
 

2nd in points per game

5th in rushing yards per game

6th in total yards per game

 

 

Fools gold stats...

[JoPoy88]

15 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

The defense wasn't that good last year. I don't care what the stats said. Also, the previous two years the Bills were the top rated defense. Only to get their doors blown off come playoff time.

 

Don't get caught up in the stats. If so, it's fair to say the Bills loss in the playoffs under McD with a sub 500 record and disappointing early exits. Isn't that the only stat that realty counts? 

 

Let's call it as it is even if it's unpopular and unpleasant. 

if statistics are irrelevant then what is? 

[NewEra]

16 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

My bad your are right. The defense will be rated nicely during the regular season. 

 

Come playoff time it's a whole different animal and theme. 

 

Look back at that vaunted top defense of the Bills entering the playoffs. Fraizer defenses come playoff time had more holes in it then Swiss cheese. 

 

But I get it, McD will be the savior on defense. Just like when he took over the defense in 13 seconds in KC. 

 

But I'm the biased unreasonable guy here. Oh OK if you say so.

You’re acting as if Mcdermott isn’t regarded as one of the better defensive minds league wide.  Yes- he’s had some trouble in the playoffs, but your deep seated hatred of the man has taken over your thoughts and has made you unreasonable in your thinking.  There is no doubt.  
 

you’re talking as if there is no chance our defense will be good and equally no chance of winning a Super Bowl because of him.  That’s the epitome of being unreasonable 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by NewEra

[Shaw66]

27 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

My bad your are right. The defense will be rated nicely during the regular season. 

 

Come playoff time it's a whole different animal and theme. 

 

Look back at that vaunted top defense of the Bills entering the playoffs. Fraizer defenses come playoff time had more holes in it then Swiss cheese. 

 

But I get it, McD will be the savior on defense. Just like when he took over the defense in 13 seconds in KC. 

 

But I'm the biased unreasonable guy here. Oh OK if you say so.

As I think others have said, that ignores Hyde and Poyer being out, White coming back.  It ignores that his season, barring injury, the Bills will have Miller and Floyd rushing off the edges.  I don't think this is going to be the same defense that has struggled in the playoffs.  

[PBF81]

14 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

No, it isn't puzzling.  They studied him, they interviewed him, they talked to his coaches.   They did a lot of research and decided he was a guy who could play the scheme they wanted, that he could learn it.   That could make him a great corner, like White - another cover corner who learned the defense.  Whether they were right remains to be seen.  

 

Well, it's possible that the coaches underachieved with him as well.  I was big on him when they took him because of his skills, but knew he wasn't the best fit in our system outright.  I didn't think it would be a big deal either, but I was incredibly disappointed in his play last season.  I was expecting much more from him after watching some of his highlights at UF in the bigger games.  His Jr. (final) season wasn't his best there, at least not IMO, I thought that his Soph season was a little bit better.  nonetheless.  

 

The bonus is that he did leave early and is still only 22.  We seem to draft a lot of young players.  McCreary taken after him may have been a better pick.  Hindsight.  Devon Lloyd IMO would have filled a bigger and more pressing need, he was the best ILB available.  

 

 

[K-9]

43 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

The defense wasn't that good last year. I don't care what the stats said. Also, the previous two years the Bills were the top rated defense. Only to get their doors blown off come playoff time.

 

Don't get caught up in the stats. If so, it's fair to say the Bills loss in the playoffs under McD with a sub 500 record and disappointing early exits. Isn't that the only stat that realty counts? 

 

Let's call it as it is even if it's unpopular and unpleasant. 

I seldom get caught up in stats, but you made the declaration that they wouldn’t be a top 10 defense, which is a stat based argument. How else do you quantify a ranking? I’d be interested in that. 
 

That said, while we’ve been a top tier defense statistically under McD, I’ve never thought of us as a dominant defense that can dictate games on the field. Then again, few teams can do that nowadays, if any, really.

[Cheektowaga Chad]

Haven't really heard anything about Leonard Floyd, is he playing as expected? 

[Sierra Foothills]

10 hours ago, Logic said:

This is training camp.

Some days the offense looks really good and we worry about the defense.

Other days the defense looks really good and we worry about the offense.

When things start to become a trend -- like if we start hearing that the offensive line struggles multiple days in a row or the corners can't cover anyone -- THEN it can become a concern.

 

Thank you.

 

From The Athletic just minutes ago:

 

"The first-team defense wound up with six would-be sacks on only 25 dropbacks, and on some of the pass attempts, Allen had to settle for a shorter throw because the pressure got there quickly. After three good days of offensive success, the defense battled back to win the day at the line of scrimmage, and then dominated the final portion of practice, as well."

 

Chillax, people... this is the natural ebb and flow of training camp practices.

 

[freddyjj]

9 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

Brown reminds me of Torell Troup. Troup looked good early on with the Bills, but had a bad back injury which derailed his career. I’m hoping Brown will be able to fully recover and have a solid career as a RT for the Bills, but the reports so far in this year’s camp are worrisome.

I wonder if his table jumping on draft night tweaked his back.  How Billsy would that be?

[Sierra Foothills]

And for those freaking out about Shakir, "Then on fourth down, safety Cam Lewis made up for fellow safety Taylor Rapp’s poor angle to the throw and made an outstanding pass breakup deep over the middle against receiver Khalil Shakir. "

 

 

[PBF81]

29 minutes ago, NewEra said:

You’re acting as if Mcdermott isn’t regarded as one of the better defensive minds league wide.  Yes- he’s had some trouble in the playoffs

 

Who knows how good our D will be.  I don't know how McD is regarded around the league in terms of a "defensive mind," we know it's his strength and that offense clearly isn't.  I'm not sure how you measure that, but I measure it by his defensive rankings.  Those have been all over the map and incredibly average in Carolina while he was the DC.  If he was one of the "better defensive minds," why were his Ds, which had plenty of talent, ranked 17th and 13th, patently average, with Scoring (aka points allowed) being just below average.  (rhetorical)   
 

Here everyone wants to give him the credit, but when it comes time to accept the responsibility for the cataclysmic playoff flaws, everyone points to Frazier.  LOL  "He did it."  His defenses in the playoffs in Carolina weren't exactly on the impressive side either with any consistency.  

 

So which is it?  (rhetorically)  With the good comes the bad, to ascribe the good to McD but the bad to Frazier makes zero sense whatsoever.  

 

Either way, as a DC in Carolina, he posted the 18th, 21st, 26th, and 27th Scoring D seasons in four of his six seasons there.  That's not good, and one of those was his last season there.  His successor took, Steve Wilks, who sucks, took McD's 26th Scoring/21st Yardage D and turned it into the 11th Scoring, 7th Yardage D the following season.  One of the two seasons McD had it ranked among the top-10, he had the easiest schedule of any team from 2011 thru 2022, 12 seasons, which obviously aided that.  

 

This season will be a big one in the enlightenment of what's going on.  No more Frazier to blame should things not go well.  If he produces a #1 or #2 D again, then that will also speak loudly.  

 

We'll see.  But the word inconsistency is definitely there lurking when it comes to defining his D prowess.   The playoff performance of the D however has been hugely problematic.  To suggest that that's all in the rear view mirror is premature at best.  Time will tell.  What any of us hopes or wants won't make a damn bit of difference. 

 

 

[BillsNutHawaii]

59 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

My bad your are right. The defense will be rated nicely during the regular season. 

 

Come playoff time it's a whole different animal and theme. 

 

Look back at that vaunted top defense of the Bills entering the playoffs. Fraizer defenses come playoff time had more holes in it then Swiss cheese. 

 

But I get it, McD will be the savior on defense. Just like when he took over the defense in 13 seconds in KC. 

 

But I'm the biased unreasonable guy here. Oh OK if you say so.

You're a bad boy, a very bad one, one of the worst.  I don't think there is any room to forgive you.

49 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

if statistics are irrelevant then what is? 

To answer your question: Feelings, emotions, perceptions, the Fox News comments section.

[Dan]

10 hours ago, SCBills said:

 

Shakir seems to be the most polarizing player of camp so far.

 

Some reporters think he's been solid/stock up.  Others keep highlighting him having an issue with drops.  

We have to have a whipping boy… Edmonds is gone.  Shakir… you’re up.

[boyst]

3 hours ago, MWK said:

 

 

Feliciano was a fake tough guy and a mediocre player

I don't disagree but at least he did put up the front. Too many dudes didn't even puff up after some ***** last year. Especially against cinci

3 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I always thought Feliciano was kind of a bully.  The guy who compensates for his lack of skill during the play, by acting tough afterwards. 

You see it differently?

 

 

If you search "Dawkins" I think you'll find your feelings are mistaken

No, he was a bully and a cheese puff. That other OL back a while ago, went to Dallas after I think was the same thing. Saffold, too. They're not tough or hard.

 

But Feliciano would backup his teammates 

[JerseyBills]

10 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

That (tying together threads) is the real achilles heel of Beane's OL builds.  It's not that he doesn't put resources into the line.  He has - maybe not as many high picks as folks would like, but OL is hard to scout these days so there's an argument to be made for picking up guys who have put down some NFL tape.

 

But there are two errors with a draft pick.  One is giving up too early (analogous to Type I error in statistics. rejection of actually true null hypothesis)  The other is giving them too many chances and too much time (analogous to Type II error, accepting an actually false null hypothesis). 

 

When it comes to Cody Ford and now maybe Spencer Brown, Beane has been a Type II guy.

 

 

What about Wyatt Teller. Type 1 . Dude has been an all pro G

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

What about Wyatt Teller. Type 1 . Dude has been an all pro G

I also think it's pry tough to fault Beane for 'giving up too early' on prospects...I don't think that's his purview

[BillsShredder83]

25 minutes ago, BillsNutHawaii said:

You're a bad boy, a very bad one, one of the worst.  I don't think there is any room to forgive you.

To answer your question: Feelings, emotions, perceptions, the Fox News comments section.

I dunno why this is being attacked as unreasonable. All these are more relevant than stats. Game in, game out, "did the defense do its job today."

 

We're we getting pressure? Stopping drives? Struggling on 3rd and long? Did we keep or lose containment all day?

 

OK we got gashed by the run today on paper, but we were up 2 scores all day, when the offense was hot, and sold out to stop the pass?

 

All this ^^^, in the context of a game is much more relevant than chalking everything up to #3 scoring defense.

 

Heck you're admitting that the defense did not look the same in the playoffs, as we looked on paper during regular season.... did you use stats to come up with that? Orrrrr feelings, emotions and perception?

 

Weird to condemn the eyeball test when it goes against you, but embrace it when it goes with you.

[Beck Water]

29 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

What about Wyatt Teller. Type 1 . Dude has been an all pro G

 

I don't think Teller was a Type 1 error.  Beane knew he had talent, but considered him a likely backup that season (Cleveland was no different - he didn't start until 8 games into the season, due to injury).  He also fell victim to Beane's belief that backup OLmen MUST have positional flexibility, the more the better.

 

Bottom line it was a mistake, but had more to do with positional priorities than with talent evaluation.

 

There's also the point that Teller became an all-pro in a different blocking system, if I'm not mistaken (that brings up a whole different set of questions, but I don't feel like going there too early. 

 

Nit: I really hate to do this also because I like Teller, but he was a 2nd team all pro in 2020 and 2021, and a pro-bowler in 2021 and 2022.  All worthy honors, but 2nd team not quite the honor that 1st team is.  Teller's wiki doesn't clarify this point.

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Beck Water