To Have, and To Have Not: a Midwestern Tale

[Terry Tate]

On 7/29/2023 at 7:52 PM, Beck Water said:

We don’t have the fancy-pants option, but we are prepared.  We hauled out the inverter generators, fueled them up, plugged them into the handy-dandy twist-lock exterior outlet, did some jiggery pokery on the electrical panel, flipped some breakers back on, and Voila!  Our modem and router work, our fridge and freezer have power, our i-devices can be re-charged, we can use the igniter and turn on our gas stove.  And I can sit in front of a fan, or under a ceiling fan, and turn on an LED light or two if I feel like it.

It sounds like you went through the trouble to set this up properly. Having a little experience with power outages in FL, I would just like to caution people about DIYing this type of setup. You can set this up pretty easily with a portable generator, but please consider:
- line workers will be in danger if they assume a line is without power, but it is live due to power backfeed flowing from your house. You need to ensure your house is disconnected from the power lines.
- Being able to throw a light switch or turn on a fan is awesome, but be careful with turning on major appliances (let alone AC/Heat). Your generator may not be able to provide as stable/consistent power as line power, and major appliances could be damaged. You have to make sure the generator output is able to handle what demands you place on it. There's a reason whole house generators are more expensive than the standard portables.

[teef]

it's weird how the grids run.  when we had the ice storm back the 90s, our entire street lost power for about a week.  two houses only lost if for about 6 hours. our house and our neighbors house...mostly due to timing of the builds, grid, etc.  one neighbor even implied to the other that these two houses were the only ones with power because we were the italians on the street. that was actually said.

 

 

i'd love a full house generator.  it's the only thing we're missing.  the issue is my house is on all electric.  we're grandfathered into a grid that gets amazingly cheap electric.  we have a small propane tank to run fireplaces and stoves, but i don't think it's worth burying a huge tank, filling it, etc.   we haven't lost power in the 8 years we lived there, but ya never know.  i honestly didn't know there were solar generators.  i can't imagine they look nice, but i'll look into them.

[Beck Water]

On 7/31/2023 at 12:00 AM, Just Jack said:

 

Here in Syracuse they've been doing a program where they've plotted out certain streets to replace the main water pipes.  But at the same time, they also replace/update all utilities, to cut down on future repairs.  The streets stay dug up longer, but now they know exactly where everything is under that street once they are finished.  

 

 

And I remember seeing a newspaper photo back in 1997 or 1998 from the Watertown NY ice storm. There was a city street where one side had power and the other did not.  What neighbors did was run extension cords to the house directly across from each other.  

 

We've joked about that, actually.

[Beck Water]

37 minutes ago, Terry Tate said:

It sounds like you went through the trouble to set this up properly.

 

Yes

You raise a number of valid concerns that are important to make people aware of.

I don't want to sound like I'm minimizing them, but it's also important to me for folks to understand that this is really pretty straightforward to address.  I don't want people to feel that it's "whole house generator or bad idea" when it comes to emergency preparedness.

 

37 minutes ago, Terry Tate said:

Having a little experience with power outages in FL, I would just like to caution people about DIYing this type of setup. You can set this up pretty easily with a portable generator, but please consider:

- line workers will be in danger if they assume a line is without power, but it is live due to power backfeed flowing from your house. You need to ensure your

house is disconnected from the power lines.

 

Agreed feeding power from a generator into the power panel could be a potential danger to power workers if the mains to the panel are not shut off.  That's the whole point of installing an interlock switch and a mains power alarm - the fact that it locks-out the mains switch to prevent that turn-off-mains step from being omitted (or thoughtlessly reversed) while feeding power from the generator, causing backfeed.  It's physically impossible to cause backfeed, because the mains are physically locked into the "Off" position while the circuit that powers the panel from the generator is turned on.  Either-or, Not Both.

 

The interlock would not be particularly difficult for an electrically knowledgeable person to DIY, but it's an obvious modification to the power panel so IMHO a licensed electrician is 100% the way to go here.

 

43 minutes ago, Terry Tate said:

- Being able to throw a light switch or turn on a fan is awesome, but be careful with turning on major appliances (let alone AC/Heat). Your generator may not be able to provide as stable/consistent power as line power, and major appliances could be damaged. You have to make sure the generator output is able to handle what demands you place on it. There's a reason whole house generators are more expensive than the standard portables.

 

You're correct that modern appliances have a lot of electronics that can be potentially damanged by the spikes and surges of a standard generator. Having stable and consistent power is the point of having an inverter generator rather than a standard one.  I can tell you know this, but for others, the battery, inverter, and alternator in the inverter generator are designed to produce spike and surge free AC that won't damage appliances. 

 

And yes, we started with a spreadsheet with the power draw of everything in the house and decided what we wanted to be able to operate to stay functional when sizing the generators.  Being able to power the neighbor's fridges requires careful consideration of what we run.

 

Again, I don't want to minimize your valid concerns.  My point is to ensure people who might benefit from emergency power, but who can't or don't want to put out the money for a whole house generator, know these are relatively standard and straightforward to address.

 

Love the username by the way.  TRIPLE T!  The pain train's coming!

[Terry Tate]

On 8/2/2023 at 1:50 PM, Beck Water said:

 

Yes

You raise a number of valid concerns that are important to make people aware of.

I don't want to sound like I'm minimizing them, but it's also important to me for folks to understand that this is really pretty straightforward to address.  I don't want people to feel that it's "whole house generator or bad idea" when it comes to emergency preparedness.

 

Good job! Many years ago I learned there is a common redneck engineering solution to wire a plug to backfeed from a portable generator via a dryer outlet to power the house. This step is very easy to accomplish, and requires little to no understanding of what you're dealing with. And as you might imagine, long-term outages here are often accompanied by news stories of electrocutions, fires, injured/dead linemen, or a whole house full of blown appliances due to it. Just hoping anyone interested does the same level of research and planning as you described.

 

There's a lot more commercial solutions available these days, so maybe it's not as big an issue.

[Pete]

 

[Pete]

testing

[CookieG]

On 7/31/2023 at 12:00 AM, Just Jack said:

 

Here in Syracuse they've been doing a program where they've plotted out certain streets to replace the main water pipes.  But at the same time, they also replace/update all utilities, to cut down on future repairs.  The streets stay dug up longer, but now they know exactly where everything is under that street once they are finished.  

 

 

And I remember seeing a newspaper photo back in 1997 or 1998 from the Watertown NY ice storm. There was a city street where one side had power and the other did not.  What neighbors did was run extension cords to the house directly across from each other.  

And....number 3 water main break occurred this morning, since the road was redone.  Maybe 200 yards from where it broke last fall.  Surprisingly, the water is still flowing somewhat.  And I was going to make sun tea today so I filled my gallon pitcher last night.  Coupling that with the drinking water I had in the fridge, I'd be OK even if it had been

 

As far as power going out on one side of the street, that has happened here, and actually happened last week when it went out.  As the repair trucks pulled up, I yelled across the street to the neighbors: "You people on that side of the street have no idea what its like for us on this side of the street!"  They laughed and reminded me its happened to them in the past.  They then made sure we were ok, but as the trucks were showing up at the time, I told them it wouldn't be that much longer. They hadn't known we were without power until the truck pulled up.

 

I live in a good neighborhood with good neighbors.

[DrDawkinstein]

On 7/29/2023 at 9:23 PM, boyst said:

Whole house generators are worth it. They're fairly affordable, compared to years past.

 

We plan on getting one. My quotes were both around $10k for the Generac generator and install. So it can wait right now.

 

I'm sitting here without power since 5pm yesterday. ERT 5pm today. Second 24hr outage we've had this summer.

 

Going to Harbor Freight and getting this guy today. Will be good enough until we pull the trigger on the Generac. Or if it's good enough, save me $9k.

 

 

[boyst]

2 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

We plan on getting one. My quotes were both around $10k for the Generac generator and install. So it can wait right now.

 

I'm sitting here without power since 5pm yesterday. ERT 5pm today. Second 24hr outage we've had this summer.

 

Going to Harbor Freight and getting this guy today. Will be good enough until we pull the trigger on the Generac. Or if it's good enough, save me $9k.

 

 

if you do it right you'll have it hardwired into your junction/fuse box main line and can have it split off from there the your be an alternate fuse box.

if you can afford it now, you can do this in prep for a whole house unit. then again, you said all included for $10. there is a significant hidden cost in wiring - especially if done right with a secondary fuse box controlling the resources the generator provides

 

how many kW? i forget what the farm is, i think it's over 20kW-  furnace and water are gas. stove is electric and was not included strategically. we use an outdoor grill with propane in lieu of the stove.

Edited August 8, 2023 by boyst

[DrDawkinstein]

On 8/8/2023 at 2:05 PM, boyst said:

if you do it right you'll have it hardwired into your junction/fuse box main line and can have it split off from there the your be an alternate fuse box.

if you can afford it now, you can do this in prep for a whole house unit. then again, you said all included for $10. there is a significant hidden cost in wiring - especially if done right with a secondary fuse box controlling the resources the generator provides

 

how many kW? i forget what the farm is, i think it's over 20kW-  furnace and water are gas. stove is electric and was not included strategically. we use an outdoor grill with propane in lieu of the stove.

 

I meant to answer this, and then... life happened. lol

 

Yeah, the one we spec'ed was at 22kW. All sorts of fancy features they have on them nowadays with wifi and apps and stuff.

 

This is the model: https://www.generac.com/all-products/generators/home-backup-generators/guardian-series/22kw-7042-wifi-enabled

 

Annoying/Frustrating to see an MSRP of $5500 on the manufacturer site and then everyone we talk to is $12k all in. But that is full install. Pulling permits, pouring the pad, wiring it into the house, etc. I get it isnt easy, but when more than half is install/labor... ugh.

[boyst]

20 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I meant to answer this, and then... life happened. lol

 

Yeah, the one we spec'ed was at 22kW. All sorts of fancy features they have on them nowadays with wifi and apps and stuff.

 

This is the model: https://www.generac.com/all-products/generators/home-backup-generators/guardian-series/22kw-7042-wifi-enabled

 

Annoying/Frustrating to see an MSRP of $5500 on the manufacturer site and then everyone we talk to is $12k all in. But that is full install. Pulling permits, pouring the pad, wiring it into the house, etc. I get it isnt easy, but when more than half is install/labor... ugh.

I know trades folks who do all of that stuff and even if they do it on the side and charge me a "fair" rate with just a little over cost for them they don't even make that much. It's insane how much cost there is when it comes to trade work.

 

Good example is a friend who does his own grading and clearing work. Dude makes about $35/hr profit regardless of using his dozer, backhoe, and skidsteer on a 20 hour job costing $10k.

[sherpa]

57 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I meant to answer this, and then... life happened. lol

 

Yeah, the one we spec'ed was at 22kW. All sorts of fancy features they have on them nowadays with wifi and apps and stuff.

 

This is the model: https://www.generac.com/all-products/generators/home-backup-generators/guard

ian-series/22kw-7042-wifi-enabled

 

Annoying/Frustrating to see an MSRP of $5500 on the manufacturer site and then everyone we talk to is $12k all in. But that is full install. Pulling permits, pouring the pad, wiring it into the house, etc. I get it isnt easy, but when more than half is install/labor... ugh.

 

That is the unit I have, but I got it done for about 9k+. Don't remember the final number, but it was under 10.

 

It isn't simply the generator. I have two 200amp transfer panels that connect the generator to the service panel. They are not cheap.

As well, the unit needs fuel, whether nat gas or liquid propane, and that is a plumbing expense.

 

There are ways to save money.

I didn't pay a Generac contractor. I found a local guy who does these installs to do the generator and transfer panels, and got a separate guy to do the fuel supply  plumbing.

 

You don't need to pour a concrete pad. I leveled the ground, built a weather resistant rectangle, filled it with crushed stone, then leveled it and put 12x12 pavers on top. The generator is secure and level.

[boyst]

5 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

That is the unit I have, but I got it done for about 9k+. Don't remember the final number, but it was under 10.

 

It isn't simply the generator. I have two 200amp transfer panels that connect the generator to the service panel. They are not cheap.

As well, the unit needs fuel, whether nat gas or liquid propane, and that is a plumbing expense.

 

There are ways to save money.

I didn't pay a Generac contractor. I found a local guy who does these installs to do the generator and transfer panels, and got a separate guy to do the fuel supply  plumbing.

 

You don't need to pour a concrete pad. I leveled the ground, built a weather resistant rectangle, filled it with crushed stone, then leveled it and put 12x12 pavers on top. The generator is secure and level.

Did you go nat gas or propane?

 

We will likely go nat gas, but I know they're making some now that can be easily switched to propane tanks should nat gas be an issue.

 

I also worry about regulations making these things harder and more expensive like gas stoves. 

[sherpa]

3 hours ago, boyst said:

Did you go nat gas or propane?

 

We will likely go nat gas, but I know they're making some now that can be easily switched to propane tanks should nat gas be an issue.

 

I also worry about regulations making these things harder and more expensive like gas stoves. 

 

Propane. I would have used nat gas, but not an option.

I wouldn't worry about regulations.

There would be a revolution if some law forced people to abandon a life saving power option when they are purchased for the singular purpose of reacting to a power outage.