Torrence is the best news out of week one

[Don Otreply]

8 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

Wishful thinking here at its best. We don't know how Torrance will play come real time. McGovern has his weaknesses. Spencer Brown is a concern. This oline is a work in progress. Who knows how good or bad they will be. I think it's safe to say they are not an elite line. Doubt anyone has them ranked in the top 10. This oline has to play well or it's likely an early playoff loss once again. 

Newcam2012’s Glass half empty attitude at it’s best,  

 

If one didn’t no better and only read your posts they would think the Bills are one of the worst teams in the league, 

[Tenhigh]

18 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Just wait, that Spencer Brown explosion is coming. 

 

It was that back injury last year, and DII football the year before that, and conversion to OT the year before that. 

 

I think the Bills are still smartly waiting for that Sammy Watkins explosion into a dominant NFL WR. 

 

 

Are you thinking that Spencer Brown is going to be some kind of right tackle decoy? 

[Ayjent]

22 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Pardon me, but you're doing what a lot of us do here, which is to read things into posts that weren't there.  

 

I didn't "assess" Torrence at all.   I just said that I'm happy that he already seems to have moved into the starting slot at RG, which is true.  I said that's a good thing, because it means he's on top of the mental aspects of the game - he wouldn't be there if he wasn't able to handle what they were asking him to do. Elam didn't get slotted like that last season, and Cook didn't, either.   McDermott moves guys up only when they've shown they can handle what he's being asked to do.  Torrence isn't being asked yet to knock people on their butts, but he is being asked to know and execute his assignments, pick his man, pick up the calls at the line of scrimmage, and if he didn't do all that correctly in OTAs and practice, he wouldn't be playing ahead of Bates.   In other words, he's done everything they've asked him to do better than Bates does it.   That's a good sign, and because it's been a position of weakness for the Bills, that was an encouraging thing to come out of training camp. 

I hadn't seen the reports about today.  Yeah, you and others get it.   

 

Obviously, no one knows how good these guys will be, but we can be pleased about developments so far.  This is one.

 

We also can be unhappy about others.   For me, I'm disappointed Elam hasn't taken charge at CB2.  I'd hoped that he would.   By the end of the season, the Bills were ready to anoint Cook over Motor, and I was hoping the same would happen with Kair.  Hasn't happened. 

This is exactly right.  No one is declaring victory and problem solved, but given the history with this staff only playing rookies that are getting it, this very encouraging.  I thought this was the best Bills draft in a while.  I believe Torrence will come in and play well, but we’ll see for certain soon enough.  I think the running game and a more physical approach to offense is coming this year, with play action setting up the a lot of TE receptions and that is going to open up everything else as teams are forced to choose.   I think that is the philosophy as well.  I think everyone in the Bills organization recognized they needed to add a different dimension to the team and address the physicality on the offensive line, and a mismatch beyond Diggs in the passing game. You could see them trying to establish a more physical identity last year but the talent wasn’t there on the line against better opponents.  
 

I thought they flubbed it last year. I was never a big Elam fan, but wanted to be wrong.  I may still be, but magic 8 ball is saying “signs point to no”.  I thought Tariq Woolen at CB and Damien Pierce at RB were two mid rounders that were undervalued and would have made the Bills a much better and more physical team - that’s not hindsight - it’s what I was hoping before the draft. 

FWIW I was hoping the Bills would draft Shorter.  He had shaky QB play all but the year with Trask while at UF, and you could see the talent, just not the production. Both Emory Jones and Richardson were awful in the intermediate passing game and it seemed like that was where he would be most effective. Emory Jones read defenses way too slow, missing windows and Richardson rarely ever delivered passes on target on those types of throws.

 

[akcash]

This competition with Torrence and Bates reminds me of when Jim, Toby and Gabe are interviewing Kelly for Regional Manager. And Gabe is like "Are we really doing this?"

 

In this situation Bates is Kelly and Torrence is the VP from England. Hopefully Torrence turns out to be Dwight Schrute in the end. 

[BuffaloBillyG]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Pardon me, but you're doing what a lot of us do here, which is to read things into posts that weren't there.  

 

I didn't "assess" Torrence at all.   I just said that I'm happy that he already seems to have moved into the starting slot at RG, which is true.  I said that's a good thing, because it means he's on top of the mental aspects of the game - he wouldn't be there if he wasn't able to handle what they were asking him to do. Elam didn't get slotted like that last season, and Cook didn't, either.   McDermott moves guys up only when they've shown they can handle what he's being asked to do.  Torrence isn't being asked yet to knock people on their butts, but he is being asked to know and execute his assignments, pick his man, pick up the calls at the line of scrimmage, and if he didn't do all that correctly in OTAs and practice, he wouldn't be playing ahead of Bates.   In other words, he's done everything they've asked him to do better than Bates does it.   That's a good sign, and because it's been a position of weakness for the Bills, that was an encouraging thing to come out of training camp. 

I hadn't seen the reports about today.  Yeah, you and others get it.   

 

Obviously, no one knows how good these guys will be, but we can be pleased about developments so far.  This is one.

 

We also can be unhappy about others.   For me, I'm disappointed Elam hasn't taken charge at CB2.  I'd hoped that he would.   By the end of the season, the Bills were ready to anoint Cook over Motor, and I was hoping the same would happen with Kair.  Hasn't happened. 

I think most posters that are objectively looking at thing can both be happy about some and unhappy about others. For others it just wouldn't fit the character they portray.

 

As far as Elam, I too am disappointed he hasn't taken command. But I'm also not ready to write him off. He's entering his second season and had a bit to learn and adapt to. If by the end of this year he hasn't taken over and made the spot his, then I'll worry. Some learn/develop quicker than others and the enticing thing for me is if the lightbulb goes on for him he already has the elite traits to be a top CB in the league IMO. 

 

 

[Chandler#81]

43 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

Newcam2012’s Glass half empty attitude at it’s best,  

 

If one didn’t no better and only read your posts they would think the Bills are one of the worst teams in the league, 

Consider the source..

[The Frankish Reich]

20 hours ago, CookieG said:

Spencer Brown...I only saw one glimpse of him in TC...and call it premature, an overreaction, or whatever, but it made my heart drop.  It was on one of the highlight reels and it looked like a fumble drill.  He got down to the ground OK, but watching him get up looked like my 61 year old, bad backed self getting up.  It really didn't look good..especially for someone who is as good as an athlete as he is.

Ouch.

Our interior line play has often been so bad that Brown's bad play has kind of gotten a pass.

He's Beane/McD's project, and yes, he has incredible size and athleticism, but like a lot of projects he still may be a couple years away from becoming a good RT. That would fit really well with some teams. Not so well with a team with a win-now roster.

[newcam2012]

4 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

Newcam2012’s Glass half empty attitude at it’s best,  

 

If one didn’t no better and only read your posts they would think the Bills are one of the worst teams in the league, 

I get that viewpoint. It certainly has some validity but it's far from accurate in many ways. 

 

No doubt I'm a glass half empty guy. 

 

No way have I advocated the Bills are a poor team or a non playoff team. 

 

I'm definitely one big critic of the team, coaches, and management. I'd be the first to admit I think I know more than I do. Often I'm wrong and sometimes I'm spot on with my critics. 

 

I don't seek approval or disapproval on my takes. I merely give an honest opinion and welcome all kinds of feedback. Occasionally, I will become scarcastic mostly due to frustration.

 

In short, I'm a huge Bills fan who is frustrated with the Bills inability to make a SB appearance. Frustrated the Bills have not hoisted the Lombardi. I feel several mistakes and incompetence has contributed to the lack of reaching that goal. No need to rehash them. 

 

Others can chose to look at the Bills regular season success, AFC titles,  playoff runs and limited playoff success as satisfying. I totally get that. Obviously, it's galaxies better than the best. I want more and I think the team has underachieved especially the last few years. Some will point to factors and use excuses. No doubt there is validity to that sentiment. Right or wrong, i tend to dismiss much of the excuses. 

 

In short, it's a matter of perspective. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by newcam2012

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, Ayjent said:

  I believe Torrence will come in and play well, but we’ll see for certain soon enough.  I think the running game and a more physical approach to offense is coming this year, with play action setting up the a lot of TE receptions and that is going to open up everything else as teams are forced to choose.

 

You could see them trying to establish a more physical identity last year but the talent wasn’t there on the line against better opponents.  
 

 

 

And that is why the Bills signed Hareis and Murray.  They're a package with Torrence.

[newcam2012]

5 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

All we can do is wait and see how it works, but I'm encouraged.  As we've been saying, repeating, in this thread, the two guards look like they're upgrades, and it's hard to know what the Bills will get out of Brown.   But there's some reason to be optimistic.

 

McDermott loves his jackknife guys.  There are a whole bunch of them on the team.  The result is that players are a lot of positions don't look like the best in the league, but they're versatile.  Versatile is how they want their offensive line to be, apparently.   Not the best pass protectors, but better than average.  Not the best power run blockers, but better than average.  Not the best downfield blockers, but better than average.   The Bills seem to hope that they can pull together winning performances from dedicated athletes who can different things as needed.

 

Torrence clearly does not fit that mold and frankly, I'm encouraged by that.  I don't care that he maybe can't get out on screen passes like Bates can.   My priorities at that spot are (1) can you stop the pass rush, and (2) can you win straight ahead.   He looks like a guy who can do that, and if so, I'll be happy.  

 

To paraphrase what others have said, in terms of pass protection, if you're going to have a weakness, right tackle is the place to have it, because the QB sees the rush coming from there, and because Josh has shown extraordinary ability to avoid the rush from there.   So, if Brown is weak in pass pro, that's not so bad if Torrence can control his man, because Josh can handle the lone rusher from the right.  

 

Having said all that, I also must add that I've never been a huge Dawkins fan.  

 

All in all, offensive line was the concern when the season ended, they've done some things to address it, early reports are positive, and we'll see what happens.

I don't disagree with your take. I just remain skeptical mostly because of the Bills track record. The oline truthfully has bern as issue for years. I think that's a fair statement. 

 

Much of your rhetoric here has been reinterated for the past several years. Same or similar talking points. Cody Ford and Saffold jump off the page here. 

 

I'm not here saying the oline won't be better than the past. On paper, it does have promise and optimism is warranted. It's really a wait and see and an unknown on various levels. I'm just hopeful but not overly encouraged that this oline is good enough come playoff time. Time will tell. 

[newcam2012]

5 hours ago, Doc said:

 

A turnstile would be better than Saffold at LG. 

Agree but many here thought he was an upgrade to the oline based on his experience and trust in BB decision making.

 

Most football fans knew he was declining but nevertheless still thought he was a quality stop gap. 

 

Let's be honest here. BB has a pretty poor track record in regards to building a quality and consistent oline.

 

I'm starting to question what Komer is doing too. He's supposed to be one of the best. Frankly, I haven't seen much of the Komer effect.

[MikePJ76]

Can't wait to watch him blow holes on the interior for the physical backs the team now has.  That is the difference in this team getting over the hump to me, beating people up on the inside of the line in the running game.  They can do everything else offensively.  

 

Its going to change everything about the offense in the redzone and hopefully keep Allen healthy for a long time.

[BuffaloBill]

4 minutes ago, MikePJ76 said:

Can't wait to watch him blow holes on the interior for the physical backs the team now has.  That is the difference in this team getting over the hump to me, beating people up on the inside of the line in the running game.  They can do everything else offensively.  

 

Its going to change everything about the offense in the redzone and hopefully keep Allen healthy for a long time.

I agree. If the Bills have an inside run game and Kincaid can present an option in the short middle passing game then we have a complete offense without any shortcomings. It’s hard not to smile just thinking about it. 

[Don Otreply]

42 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I get that viewpoint. It certainly has some validity but it's far from accurate in many ways. 

 

No doubt I'm a glass half empty guy. 

 

No way have I advocated the Bills are a poor team or a non playoff team. 

 

I'm definitely one big critic of the team, coaches, and management. I'd be the first to admit I think I know more than I do. Often I'm wrong and sometimes I'm spot on with my critics. 

 

I don't seek approval or disapproval on my takes. I merely give an honest opinion and welcome all kinds of feedback. Occasionally, I will become scarcastic mostly due to frustration.

 

In short, I'm a huge Bills fan who is frustrated with the Bills inability to make a SB appearance. Frustrated the Bills have not hoisted the Lombardi. I feel several mistakes and incompetence has contributed to the lack of reaching that goal. No need to rehash them. 

 

Others can chose to look at the Bills regular season success, AFC titles,  playoff runs and limited playoff success as satisfying. I totally get that. Obviously, it's galaxies better than the best. I want more and I think the team has underachieved especially the last few years. Some will point to factors and use excuses. No doubt there is validity to that sentiment. Right or wrong, i tend to dismiss much of the excuses. 

 

In short, it's a matter of perspective. 

Imo, constant complaining is the easy way out of any topical discussion especially sports, it’s far more fun to be aware of missteps, yet look for reasons to be optimistic going forward, if the team falls short, look at it as a comedy of errors and laugh it off, hit restart and have at it again, being lite of heart will likely allow one to be happier and live longer, 

[Doc]

41 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Agree but many here thought he was an upgrade to the oline based on his experience and trust in BB decision making.

 

Most football fans knew he was declining but nevertheless still thought he was a quality stop gap. 

 

Let's be honest here. BB has a pretty poor track record in regards to building a quality and consistent oline.

 

I'm starting to question what Komer is doing too. He's supposed to be one of the best. Frankly, I haven't seen much of the Komer effect.

 

The difference is that Saffold was 34 and you can hit the wall at anytime.  And people who watched him said he wasn't a Pro Bowl caliber player in 2021.

[newcam2012]

22 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

The difference is that Saffold was 34 and you can hit the wall at anytime.  And people who watched him said he wasn't a Pro Bowl caliber player in 2021.

My point is many many fans here liked the move. They thought he was an instant upgrade despite his declining status and age. No one was saying or thinking they were getting a pro bowler lineman. Fact is BB and lots of fans were happy Saffold was acquired. They thought he was a viable stop gap. The type that could solidify the line on a very short term basis. Thus, lead the team to a SB.

 

Remember, Cody Ford? How many fans were excited to get him in the 2nd round. Saying he was a steal and going to be a good one. The Torrance situation looks quite similar in many ways. Hopefully, with different results. 

 

Then there's Spencer Brown a huge question mark. 

 

I guess I'm frustrated as a fan because of the failure of the Bills regime to have a very good to great oline. BB has really failed in many ways here and it's clearly cost the team better results. 

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

I don't disagree with your take. I just remain skeptical mostly because of the Bills track record. The oline truthfully has bern as issue for years. I think that's a fair statement. 

 

Much of your rhetoric here has been reinterated for the past several years. Same or similar talking points. Cody Ford and Saffold jump off the page here. 

 

I'm not here saying the oline won't be better than the past. On paper, it does have promise and optimism is warranted. It's really a wait and see and an unknown on various levels. I'm just hopeful but not overly encouraged that this oline is good enough come playoff time. Time will tell. 

 

Sure, there are some people who love every move the Bills make at the time they make it. But some of us actually judge each move (or indeed each offseason) on its merits. I said before last season multiple times "they didn't do enough at receiver, their depth outside especially stinks and the big OL move is an old, clapped out vet who has never been as good as the hype even in his prime." 

 

That doesn't mean anything either way in respect of this year's offseason. I don't think anything is a slam dunk but there are strong grounds to think they have made better moves up front and will have upgraded two of their starting spots. At receiver I think they have raised the floor a bit in the receiver room. They are not 1 injury away from Jake Kumerow anymore, but I do think it is telling that almost a week into camp they are still looking at outside options. That tells me they are seeing Sherfield and Harty as much more inside guys and/or they are not yet sure about Shorter's chance to contribute early. But it is fair to say that in terms of the passing game their best chance of a major upgrade is Kincaid hitting the ground running (ideally alongside actually using Dawson Knox more).

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

Agree but many here thought he was an upgrade to the oline based on his experience and trust in BB decision making.

 

Most football fans knew he was declining but nevertheless still thought he was a quality stop gap. 

 

Let's be honest here. BB has a pretty poor track record in regards to building a quality and consistent oline.

 

I'm starting to question what Komer is doing too. He's supposed to be one of the best. Frankly, I haven't seen much of the Komer effect.

 

It is completely fair to say Beane has a poor track record in terms of OL. 

 

By his own admission he did a "terrible job" with the OL Josh's rookie season in '18; he did a better job in '19 bringing in Morse and Spain (and to a lesser extent Feliciano) and it was steady and then 2020 with Daryl Williams at RT the line was good (but in empty stadiums). In 2021 they tried to run it back, extended Williams and Feliciano (and then cut them after 1 more season) spent all year playing musical chairs but did find a combination late that worked. 2022 was even worse, the guard play was shambolic and Brown regressed in year 2. 

 

So his track record isn't great, but you have to look at each move on its merits.

[atlbillsfan1975]

Been listening to Joe Moreno of LockedOn Bills who has been saying he wouldn’t be surprised if Bates starts at RG this year. Joe has also shared that he has a relationship with Kromer, the Oline coach. 

[Dave_Bills]

18 minutes ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

Been listening to Joe Moreno of LockedOn Bills who has been saying he wouldn’t be surprised if Bates starts at RG this year. Joe has also shared that he has a relationship with Kromer, the Oline coach. 

Interesting. I’d be a little disappointed with that but Bates does have 20 odd NFL starts under his and is a 4 year vet. I have to think Torrence can change their mind with continued solid play when the pads come on