Has Miami really closed the gap?

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

It's the same paper.  Miami has to prove they've closed the gap.  It's not like the Bills did nothing over the off-season.

The Bills have not improved considerably since before the 2020 season. They have basically stayed the same which has made them a top 3 -5 team in the league for four years running now. The Bills have had both gains and losses in all of the prior off-seasons since 2020. Keeping them basically where they are at which is fine.
 

Miami made considerable improvements within the last year. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

4 hours ago, Billl said:

What's to solve?  Here's the statement in the OP that I responded to originally:

 

"Yes, they have a decent team on paper but what have they proven? Constantly being mentioned in the same breath as KC, Cincinnati and Buffalo."

 

To that, I say that Buffalo hasn't proven that they should be mentioned alongside Cincinnati and Kansas City then.  Miami has proven they can beat Buffalo in the regular season just as Buffalo has proven they can beat Kansas City in the regular season.  Neither Miami nor Buffalo have done squat in the postseason.  

 

Unless you consider having lower Super Bowl odds to be some sort of accomplishment, then the Bills haven't proven they belong in the conversation with the Chiefs any more than Miami has proven they belong in the conversation with the Bills.  It's really not any more complicated than that.

that’s a failed comparison though. Is postseason success the only thing that matters in this comparison? And if you say yes then the Bills are still ahead of Miami based on last years postseason alone. 

 

compare the Bills regular season and post-season resume vs. the Dolphins for any time period you want since 2020. 1 year, 2 year, 3 years. The Bills are clearly at another level than the Dolphins by that metric and clearly in the class of KC and Cincy. 

 

Again Miami has closed on the Bills.  But the Bills are still closer to KC than the Dolphins are close to the Bills.

 

Depending on Rodgers, the Jets might be closer to the Chiefs than both. 

 

[GoBills808]

26 minutes ago, Billl said:

You’re demonstrating my point perfectly.  If the Bills had already proven anything, you wouldn’t have to offer wagers about future games.  You’d point to the trophies.  

 

My disagreement with the OP (and evidently you) is that you seem to think that the Bills have already accomplished something that makes the first of these statements true and the next statement untrue:

 

1.  The Bengals, Bills, and Chiefs all expect to win the Super Bowl.

 

2.  The Dolphins and Bills both expect to win the AFCE.

 

I say both are true.  There’s an argument to be made that neither are true, but there’s no way that one is true and the other is false.  If it’s reasonable to associate the Bills with the Chiefs based on what the teams have proven then it’s reasonable to associate the Dolphins with the Bills based on what the teams have proven.  

😂😂The Chargers expect to win the AFCW, so I guess they're right there w the Chiefs too

 

waste of time 

27 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

Hey 808....I didn't see this whole thread, but I do see you might be looking for some Chiefs/Bills action?  100 bucks again?

Yeah once lines posted remind me

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

You’re demonstrating my point perfectly.  If the Bills had already proven anything, you wouldn’t have to offer wagers about future games.  You’d point to the trophies.  

 

My disagreement with the OP (and evidently you) is that you seem to think that the Bills have already accomplished something that makes the first of these statements true and the next statement untrue:

 

1.  The Bengals, Bills, and Chiefs all expect to win the Super Bowl.

 

2.  The Dolphins and Bills both expect to win the AFCE.

 

I say both are true.  There’s an argument to be made that neither are true, but there’s no way that one is true and the other is false.  If it’s reasonable to associate the Bills with the Chiefs based on what the teams have proven then it’s reasonable to associate the Dolphins with the Bills based on what the teams have proven.  

 

Just a little note that statement 2. “The Dolphins and the Bills both expect to win the AFCE” is not that same statement as “the Dolphins have closed the gap with the Bills.  

 

2. Can be true (of course they think they’ve improved and expect to make a run this year).  Add in the Jets for good measure - they expect to win it too.  And I’m sure Belichick thinks he has a strategy.

 

Closing the gap is different - it’s not about expectations, it’s about what you have done.

 

57 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

😂😂The Chargers expect to win the AFCW, so I guess they're right there w the Chiefs too

 

Exactly.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Beck Water

[Billl]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

The Chargers expect to win the AFCW, so I guess they're right there w the Chiefs too

Philip Rivers is basically Tom Brady.

[Chaos]

2 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

top 3 -5 team

Top 8. 8 teams make the divisional round. If you lose in the divisional round, you tie for 8th. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

36 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Top 8. 8 teams make the divisional round. If you lose in the divisional round, you tie for 8th. 

they were top 4 off of seeding. 
 

I’m basically saying if you average all the metrics I think they have been a consensus top 5 team for at least three consecutive seasons. Doubt many would disagree with that.
 

considering pre-season expectations, Vegas odds, regular season record and playoff performances. 
 

 

[SoTier]

I think that even if he stays healthy, Tua is simply a "good" NFL QB.  Surround him with lots of talent, and he'll look good, put up impressive numbers, and win some games.  He'll even win some playoff games, and maybe, if things go perfectly, maybe even a Super Bowl like Joe Flacco did.   He's not an "elite" NFL QB who can enable JAGs to play far above their weight classes when needed.   That's what Allen, Burrow, Hurts and Mahomes do.  It's what Brady, P Manning and Rodgers did in their prime.   I think QB is where the gap between the Bills and Miami is not only the widest but also the hardest to close.  The Miami offense may have more talented offensive skill players than the Bills but because of Allen, the Bills get just as much firepower -- and sometimes more -- out of their somewhat less talented group.  

 

There's little doubt that the Bills also still have a better defense than the Fish.  Even with injuries to key players almost from the start of the season, the Bills D held its own as one of the best Ds in the league, which speaks to the talent and depth the Bills have on defense.   Last year, Miami's D was in the bottom quarter of NFL statistically, so they have a long climb to catch up to the Bills there, too.  They've improved, but while they've strengthened their defensive starters, they lack the quality depth that they need to be a top defensive team in 2023.  Having to replace Jaylen Ramsey with Eli Apple early on is a major set back to closing the defensive gap.

 

Finally, while the Fish have added some big name players and a well-known defensive coach for 2024, the Bills haven't exactly slept through the preseason.   They've modestly improved their OL, RBs and WRs.  They added a top flight pass catching TE and a promising interior OLer in the draft.  If White, Hyde, and MIller can return to pre-injury form in 2023, the Bills will again be a tough defensive team.   The gap between the Bills and Fish has narrowed somewhat but the Fish have definitely not closed the gap.  They may even have fallen further behind if Tua can't stay healthy.

 

 

 

[Doc]

13 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

The Bills have not improved considerably since before the 2020 season. They have basically stayed the same which has made them a top 3 -5 team in the league for four years running now. The Bills have had both gains and losses in all of the prior off-seasons since 2020. Keeping them basically where they are at which is fine.
 

Miami made considerable improvements within the last year. 

 

Have the Dolphins improved considerably since the end of last season?  Basically they were counting on Ramsey, who will be out until December, and Fangio who is a 3-4 guy.  And the Bills would have gone 3-0 against them if not for playing early in the season in Miami off a short week.

[Gregg]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

Have the Dolphins improved considerably since the end of last season?  Basically they were counting on Ramsey, who will be out until December, and Fangio who is a 3-4 guy.  And the Bills would have gone 3-0 against them if not for playing early in the season in Miami off a short week.

 

The first game the Bills outplayed them by a lot. They were moving the ball up and down the field but just couldn't finish drives. The 2nd game I thought the Dolphins had the better of the play. They were running the ball all over the Bills. The playoff game looked like it was going to be a blowout but then turnovers and sloppy play allowed Miami to hang around and make it a nailbiter. Buffalo should have won the 1st game. Miami probably deserved to win the 2nd game. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

7 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Have the Dolphins improved considerably since the end of last season?  Basically they were counting on Ramsey, who will be out until December, and Fangio who is a 3-4 guy.  And the Bills would have gone 3-0 against them if not for playing early in the season in Miami off a short week.

 

Dolphins closed the gap last season. I thought that was the topic of this thread.  with the OP referencing the games from last year. I’m not talking about this off-season. It’s clear they improve dramatically last year. The bills have not improved dramatically since 2020.

 

it’s really not even debatable. We used to smoke the dolphins by an average of like three touchdowns a game, and now we beat them by three points or they even beat us.

[Doc]

20 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

The Bills have not improved considerably since before the 2020 season. They have basically stayed the same which has made them a top 3 -5 team in the league for four years running now. The Bills have had both gains and losses in all of the prior off-seasons since 2020. Keeping them basically where they are at which is fine.
 

Miami made considerable improvements within the last year. 

 

I don't think anyone's arguing that they made improvements last off-season and somewhat closed the gap (although, again, if not for ridiculous scheduling for the first game the Bills would have swept them in the regular season and ultimately knocked them out of the playoffs), have they done enough to close the gap even further this past off-season?  I'd say no and that the gap got even wider.  Even with a healthy Ramsey and Fangio coming aboard.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

I don't think anyone's arguing that they made improvements last off-season and somewhat closed the gap (although, again, if not for ridiculous scheduling for the first game the Bills would have swept them in the regular season and ultimately knocked them out of the playoffs), have they done enough to close the gap even further this past off-season?  I'd say no and that the gap got even wider.  Even with a healthy Ramsey and Fangio coming aboard.

I thought the OP was trying to suggest the dolphins really didn’t close the gap as much as many think they did last off-season.
 

I would say the OP is wrong IMO.

 

I would certainly agree that this off-season there has been no change for either side.

 

to me, whether or not the dolphins can close the gap further when it comes to the bills is about as relevant as whether the bills can close the gap further against the Chiefs.

 

and I don’t believe either is relevant anymore. 
 

 

[billsbackto81]

13 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

I thought the OP was trying to suggest the dolphins really didn’t close the gap as much as many think they did last off-season.
 

I would say the OP is wrong IMO.

 

I would certainly agree that this off-season there has been no change for either side.

 

to me, whether or not the dolphins can close the gap further when it comes to the bills is about as relevant as whether the bills can close the gap further against the Chiefs.

 

and I don’t believe either is relevant anymore. 
 

 

I guess it depends on ones own opinion of what constitutes "closing the gap" and whether you consider it relevant. 

 

Personally I don't care what kind of team they put together on paper or how their actual team has performed against other squads, with or without Tua.

 

I can only go with the body of work I posted in the opening. Miami has not won a playoff game in over 20 years. 20! They are 2-9 since JA17. Their 2 wins were a game winning Charles Clay dropped TD pass and last years game in Hell  from being 0-11.

 

But because they barely beat us with no Tre, Hyde, Poyer in the game, starting Hamlin and Johnson 🤮. Morse getting injured with Quessenberry butchering every other snap they still only manage a 2 point victory though still thoroughly outplayed offensively. 

 

Then the WC game. I won't detail since I'm pretty sure you know what the team endured before the game. 

 

They may very well be better this year. Lord knows everybody thinks so. But until they actually sweep or put a good thumping on the Bills or maybe win a division title and a playoff game I say no.

 

IMO they have not "closed the gap".

 

Yet.

 

[Chaos]

20 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

they were top 4 off of seeding. 
 

I’m basically saying if you average all the metrics I think they have been a consensus top 5 team for at least three consecutive seasons. Doubt many would disagree with that.
 

considering pre-season expectations, Vegas odds, regular season record and playoff performances. 
 

 

Factually they made the final 8 the last two seasons.  You can pretend that somehow the Bills losing in the divisional round, makes them a better team than the other three divisional round losers. 

[WyoAZBillfan]

Of course, so have the Jets. Fortunately, the Bills also improved.  Let the games be played. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 hours ago, Chaos said:

Factually they made the final 8 the last two seasons.  You can pretend that somehow the Bills losing in the divisional round, makes them a better team than the other three divisional round losers. 

with respect because I often like most of your opinions even if I disagree with a couple, you seem to be making up a new ranking system here that nobody cares about. 
 

when has anyone ever given their rankings for teams and said “tied for 4th are team x and team Y” and  “tied for 8th are teams a, b, c, d”

 

I’ve never seen that on this board or heard it in the sports media. People always just give their top 10 with each team holding a specific spot in that ranking. 

I don’t see this factual ranking system of yours catching on anytime soon.

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

I guess it depends on ones own opinion of what constitutes "closing the gap" and whether you consider it relevant. 

 

Personally I don't care what kind of team they put together on paper or how their actual team has performed against other squads, with or without Tua.

 

I can only go with the body of work I posted in the opening. Miami has not won a playoff game in over 20 years. 20! They are 2-9 since JA17. Their 2 wins were a game winning Charles Clay dropped TD pass and last years game in Hell  from being 0-11.

 

But because they barely beat us with no Tre, Hyde, Poyer in the game, starting Hamlin and Johnson 🤮. Morse getting injured with Quessenberry butchering every other snap they still only manage a 2 point victory though still thoroughly outplayed offensively. 

 

Then the WC game. I won't detail since I'm pretty sure you know what the team endured before the game. 

 

They may very well be better this year. Lord knows everybody thinks so. But until they actually sweep or put a good thumping on the Bills or maybe win a division title and a playoff game I say no.

 

IMO they have not "closed the gap".

 

Yet.

 

i understand your gripe regarding the injuries we sustained. We can only guess and speculate how the scores may have differed if the Bills were healthier. 
 

I wish I could find the Peter King quote from last off-season (think it was him). He basically pointed out that the Bills had beaten the Dolphins by an average of like 23 points ppg or something like that in the winning streak they had against them. And he said “Tyreek is a great player but i can’t see him making the Dolphins 3TD’s better per game”

 

The Dolphins of course did end up improving by 3 TD’s per game against the Bills. 
 

I would say that is at least some sort of gap closed. IMO, a large one. 

[Orlando Buffalo]

I have not read the whole thread but if you remove QBs then the two teams would probably split most years, but we have Josh and he is better than Tua and far better than any backup who is almost guaranteed to play this year. 

[billsbackto81]

12 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

i understand your gripe regarding the injuries we sustained. We can only guess and speculate how the scores may have differed if the Bills were healthier. 
 

I wish I could find the Peter King quote from last off-season (think it was him). He basically pointed out that the Bills had beaten the Dolphins by an average of like 23 points ppg or something like that in the winning streak they had against them. And he said “Tyreek is a great player but i can’t see him making the Dolphins 3TD’s better per game”

 

The Dolphins of course did end up improving by 3 TD’s per game against the Bills. 
 

I would say that is at least some sort of gap closed. IMO, a large one. 

If you want to make the case that they now currently play us at a competitive level as a "closing the gap" scenario then yes, I can accept that. But I'm sure to them and us that's nothing more than a moral victory. 

 

I've mentioned before that I'd rather play them instead of the Jets. They were to me the toughest defense we played last year, and now they have a QB, albeit an aging one.