"Running QBs Don't Last" - The Historical Record, and Why Everyone Wants Josh to Change His Game

[Chaos]

It would be interesting if someone was able to correlate competent oline play to QB longevity.  I think its accurate to say Tom Brady had the longest stretch of excellent oline play during the longest QB career ever.  Probably not a coincidence.

[The Frankish Reich]

9 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

 

That's not my point. 

 

You've labeled Josh Allen as a "running QB." You're trying to make the case that if he doesn't stop running, he's going to break down and fall off the face of the earth like the "running QBs" before him. 

 

I'm saying that Josh isn't a "running QB" like 17 guys you listed. Josh Allen, while currently one of the best "running QB' in the history of the NFL, is also one of the elite passers in the league. The elite passer part is something that none of the others had. 

 

That's the difference between Josh Allen and the rest of the names you listed... he's already shown to be significantly better than them at throwing the football. 

 

I agreed in my original post that he needs to limit the amount of hard contact he subjects himself to - I think everyone is in agreement on that point.

 

What I'm disagreeing with is your comparison to other "running QBs" and it is because those guys aren't Josh Allen. They never stacked elite seasons as passers, which is why so many careers fizzled out when their legs were no longer an effective option. 

 

 

This isn't a video game - there are repercussions for your actions.

 

Shohei Ohtani is a human being. Other players pay attention to how you treat guys.

 

If you treat Ohtani like an object and "use him up" there is going to be zero trust for you/your organization league wide. 

• You're asking coaches to risk their relationships and reputation
• You're asking a front office to turn a blind eye
• You're putting athletes long term health at risk

As I've stated, Josh Allen should limit that amount of contact he subjects himself to. I feel the same way with Shohei Ohtani theoretically increasing his workload on the mount. 

 

If you want to use Shohei as a comparison for Josh, I'll use this one:

 

Ohtani is a dual threat much like Allen. He's valuable on the mound and at the plate, similar to how Josh is valuable with his legs and with his arm. 

1. If you take away Ohtani's ability to pitch, he's still going to be one of the most feared hitters on the planet.
2. If you take away Allen's ability to run, he's still going to be one of the most feared passers on the planet. 

Comparing Josh Allen to other "running QBs" is like comparing Shohei Ohtani to other two-way players such as Brendan McKay, Michael Lorenzen and Jared Walsh. 

I'm not comparing Allen to Ohtani. I'm saying the Bills have been very public about their desire to see Allen run less. And I'm saying this is rational IF they think running is going to cause him to wear down earlier than he otherwise would. And that's because they've hitched their wagon to him up through his Age 32 season. Before the long term contract, the incentives were different. 

Again: there's a reason the Bills are urging this. My original post goes to why they may be thinking along these lines.

[Nextmanup]

2 minutes ago, Chaos said:

It would be interesting if someone was able to correlate competent oline play to QB longevity.  I think its accurate to say Tom Brady had the longest stretch of excellent oline play during the longest QB career ever.  Probably not a coincidence.

He also knew what he was going to do with the ball, pre-snap, most of the time, and then got rid of the ball as fast as anyone in the game.  Also never really did anything with the ball unless he was throwing it.

 

Hard to get hit or hurt under these circumstances.

 

 

[Chaos]

6 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Hard to get hit or hurt under these circumstances.

He took plenty of hits to make plays.   One of the toughest guys to play the position, notwithstanding his pretty boy looks. 

[Dan in Owego]

1 hour ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I'm not comparing Allen to Ohtani. I'm saying the Bills have been very public about their desire to see Allen run less. And I'm saying this is rational IF they think running is going to cause him to wear down earlier than he otherwise would. And that's because they've hitched their wagon to him up through his Age 32 season. Before the long term contract, the incentives were different. 

Again: there's a reason the Bills are urging this. My original post goes to why they may be thinking along these lines.

If they want him to run less then give him an elite line, period full stop.

[JGMcD2]

2 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I'm not comparing Allen to Ohtani. I'm saying the Bills have been very public about their desire to see Allen run less. And I'm saying this is rational IF they think running is going to cause him to wear down earlier than he otherwise would. And that's because they've hitched their wagon to him up through his Age 32 season. Before the long term contract, the incentives were different. 

Again: there's a reason the Bills are urging this. My original post goes to why they may be thinking along these lines.

I’m not debating you on the desire for him to run less. I’ve been consistent with that in every post.

 

He’s not a running QB in the sense that all of the other guys you listed are. Nobody has put up passing seasons like Josh. 
 

I’m going to stop trying to explain to you. Others seem to understand my message pretty clearly and you’ve yet to acknowledge anything outside of a point that I’ve agreed with you on since the start. 
 

Go Bills. 

Edited July 29, 2023 by JGMcD2

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

On 7/26/2023 at 6:08 PM, Ethan in Cleveland said:

The vast majority of these guys weren't good QBs regardless of age or running frequency. Young is a HOF and the most obvious exception as you pointed out. Wilson may still rebound and I doubt his decline has anything to do with running. He was sacked relentlessly behind a bad Seahawks oline the last two years he was there. And I dont think he cares about football anymore. 

Excluding Rodgers and Roethlisberger skews the data set. Both were mobile guys that moved around a lot in the early part of their careers. 

 

Agree.  Allen could never run another play in his life, but could still be a great QB solely relying on his arm.  Most of the guys on that list needed to run to be effective.

 

Agree too, lets give Wilson another year before making plans for his funeral.

 

Been a long time, but thought Cunningham had a good arm too, though admittedly was a different game back then from a QB standpoint.

[Nextmanup]

1 hour ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Agree.  Allen could never run another play in his life, but could still be a great QB solely relying on his arm.  Most of the guys on that list needed to run to be effective.

 

Agree too, lets give Wilson another year before making plans for his funeral.

y

Been a long time, but thought Cunningham had a good arm too, though admittedly was a different game back then from a QB standpoint.

Josh doesn't HAVE to run to be effective, but if you eliminate his ability to run you eliminate a big chunk of what makes Josh, Josh.

 

 

[SoTier]

14 hours ago, Chaos said:

It would be interesting if someone was able to correlate competent oline play to QB longevity.  I think its accurate to say Tom Brady had the longest stretch of excellent oline play during the longest QB career ever.  Probably not a coincidence.

 

Longevity and success.   Andrew Luck retired a decade earlier than he likely would have because of the injuries he suffered, compliments of Indy not investing in a better OL, but he's just the most notable example.

 

13 hours ago, Dan in Owego said:

If they want him to run less then give him an elite line, period full stop.

 

Totally agree.   Last year, Allen had to "run for his life" far too much.  He also had to intentionally run far too much because the Bills running game was ineffective too often.  A better OL would improve both of those issues even with just average RBs.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

32 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Josh doesn't HAVE to run to be effective, but if you eliminate his ability to run you eliminate a big chunk of what makes Josh, Josh.

 

 

 

Agree, but think he'd still be a successful starting QB without the running while many of the names on the list had no career without being able to run.  Much of the excitement level of Allen would be gone without the running.

[1onemangang7]

The answer is simple. Spend a buck on a legit RB 1

[Aussie Joe]

I thought there was a rule about bumping old threads ? 

[1onemangang7]

Just now, Aussie Joe said:

I thought there was a rule about bumping old threads ? 

Not if you bundle em

[Aussie Joe]

Just now, 1onemangang7 said:

Not if you bundle em

Great news .. I got plenty …more interesting than this one 

[1onemangang7]

4 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

Great news .. I got plenty …more interesting than this one 

Really? Can't wait! I didn't know anything could help the team more than 17 not having to carry it on his back.  I have a feeling Beane is not gonna like this! Go for it, just like gutsy Dan Campbell would.

[BillsFanForever19]

26 minutes ago, 1onemangang7 said:

The answer is simple. Spend a buck on a legit RB 1

 

Saw you talking about Cook getting stopped on the last 3 plays. You seem to be on a kick that Cook isn't good enough. Considering he ended his campaign 4th in the league in Rushing and a 1st selection Pro Bowler - kind of an odd time to take this stance.

 

You are aware that this happens to even the best RB's in the league, right? I've seen the mighty King Henry stopped in the clutch in games too.

 

If the blocking ain't there, the running play gets blown up. Simple as that. Especially if the opposing team knows we're trying to play the clock and is keying on the run.

 

We need to do a lot of things to this team this offseason. Looking for an RB1 isn't one of them.

Edited February 1 by BillsFanForever19

[Aussie Joe]

1 minute ago, 1onemangang7 said:

Really? Can't wait! I didn't know anything could help the team more than 17 not having to carry it on his back.  I have a feeling Beane is not gonna like this! Go for it, just like gutsy Dan Campbell would.

Maybe send Beane an email that you are unhappy with the RB situation …

 

Mark it “urgent” so he gives it the appropriate attention it deserves 

[1onemangang7]

3 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Saw you talking about Cook getting stopped on the last 3 plays. You seem to be on a kick that Cook isn't good enough. Considering he ended his campaign 4th in the league in Rushing and a 1st selection Pro Bowler - kind of an odd time to take this stance.

 

You are aware that this happens to even the best RB's in the league, right? I've seen the mighty King Henry stopped in the clutch in games too.

 

If the blocking ain't there, the running play gets blown up. Simple as that.

 

We need to do a lot of things to this team this offseason. Looking for an RB1 isn't one of them.

Well considering the qb is used for all the tough yardage I think it'd benefit the team to use Cook in a way that doesn't put the team behind the chains so often. You misspoke saying the last 3 plays. It was the last 3 drives. I also don't think this warrants someone carrying the last name of Brady to be promoted so easily.  This GM/head coach tandem is proving inadequate and seems to ride the talent of a quarterback and sell the rest to a forgiving fan base.

6 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

Maybe send Beane an email that you are unhappy with the RB situation …

 

Mark it “urgent” so he gives it the appropriate attention it deserves 

Beane doesn't worry too much about football.  He leaves that to Allen.

[BillsFanForever19]

1 minute ago, 1onemangang7 said:

Well considering the qb is used for all the tough yardage I think it'd benefit the team to use Cook in a way that doesn't put the team behind the chains so often. You misspoke saying the last 3 plays. It was the last 3 drives. I also don't think this warrants someone carrying the last name of Brady to be promoted so easily.  This GM/head coach tandem is proving inadequate and seems to ride the talent of a quarterback and sell the rest to a forgiving fan base.

Beane doesn't worry too much about football.  He leaves that to Allen.

 

Any way you try to slice it, anyone who finishes their campaign 4th in the entire NFL in rushing is a "legit RB1"

 

We're ~52 million over the cap, need to find starters at WR, DE, DT, and S and a whole ton of depth - with 22 players hitting the market (and more that will need to be cut to clear space).

 

And you want to "spend a buck" to replace our young Pro Bowl RB? Yeah, that's just crazy talk.

[1onemangang7]

3 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Any way you try to slice it, anyone who finishes their campaign 4th in the entire NFL in rushing is a "legit RB1"

 

We're ~52 million over the cap, need to find starters at WR, DE, DT, and S and a whole ton of depth - with 22 players hitting the market (and more that will need to be cut to clear space).

 

And you want to "spend a buck" to replace our young Pro Bowl RB? Yeah, that's just crazy talk.

Yep. Cause there's been 58 superbowls and not 1 has been won by a team with the best runner being the qb. Pro bowl isn't what it used to be. You go ahead and crown him. He owes all those bs stats to the qb and the fans who are fooled by it. Lemme guess you think Purdy is legit mvp also? Would you swap qbs? Would you swap rbs with Frisco, this board is full of Cook comparisons to McCaffrey based on numbers. With as many negative plays as he has his highlight reel should look like Barry Sanders' according to you Homer's. 

Edited February 1 by 1onemangang7