"Running QBs Don't Last" - The Historical Record, and Why Everyone Wants Josh to Change His Game

[Chaos]

9 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Russell Wilson concerns me. He can still throw. But his mobility has declined greatly, and it's made him a below-average starting QB by the age of 33. Yes, there's a lot of hits behind the line of scrimmage thanks to bad O lines and his propensity to hold onto the ball too long. But there was also a ton of wear and tear in getting to 500, 600, 800+ yards running downfield in his 20s.

Steve Young was also a guy with unusually low mileage on him for his age. There was the USFL spell (not sure how much damage he sustained there against lesser players), and then he sat behind Montana for 4 full seasons.

Allen is bigger, stronger, a better runner and a better passer than Young. Allen is a unique player. There really are not any true comps.  Young just happens to be the closest of the people on the list. 

[Freddie's Dead]

11 hours ago, julian said:

Bingo… Allen will go down as the greatest duel threat QB of all time once his career ends.

 

Bigger than Hamilton-Burr?  No way.

 

[Royale with Cheese]

14 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Culpepper was a good passer

RG3 and Cam were more than capable

Wilson was a great passer

McNair was underrated thrower of the football imo

 

i think the point that taking a lot of damage running the ball tends to shorten QB careers is totally valid

 

Culpepper the majority of his career was a bad passer.

[julian]

1 hour ago, Freddie's Dead said:

 

Bigger than Hamilton-Burr?  No way.

 

Grade 10 Ricky !!!!

[The Frankish Reich]

23 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Culpepper the majority of his career was a bad passer.

I disagree. Objectively, he is probably the closest comp to Josh. Tremendous size, great athlete, came into the NFL pretty raw but put together this season at age 27:

 

Historic season

Culpepper enjoyed his best statistical season as a professional in 2004 and, though they were only 8–8, the Vikings reached the playoffs for the second time under Culpepper. Passing for a league-leading 4,717 yards, a Viking-record 39 touchdowns, and only 11 interceptions, Culpepper was named to his third career Pro Bowl. Culpepper also broke Dan Marino's NFL record for combined passing and rushing yards, amassing 5,123 total yards. His 2,323 rushing yards from 2000–2004 also made him only the fourth quarterback in NFL history to run for more than 2,300 yards in a five-season period. (Michael Vick had 3,570 from 2002–2006; Randall Cunningham had 3,232 from 1986–1990; and Steve McNair had 2,387 from 1997–2001). Culpepper’s career rushing average of 26.1 yards per game is fourth-best among quarterbacks in NFL history. Only Vick (47.3 yds/g), Cunningham (30.6 yds/g), and Bobby Douglass (29.8 yds/g) have averaged more rushing yards per game during their QB careers. After the 2004 season, Culpepper said the game had “slowed down” for him, saying

I feel like a Jedi Knight.[11][12][13]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daunte_Culpepper

 

69.2 completion percentage that year too. He was tremendous, and he was just entering his prime years. Or so we thought ...

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CulpDa00.htm

 

He ripped up his knee downfield when a tackler hit him low. He was never the same (although off the field behavior also helped to derail his career).

 

Yes, he had Randy Moss, but Moss only caught 49 balls. He also took a ton of sacks and had the likes of Onterrio Smith as his lead RB. We forget how good he was for a brief shining moment.

[Real McClappy]

Surprised Mahomes didn't make the cut. 

 

 

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

26 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I disagree. Objectively, he is probably the closest comp to Josh. Tremendous size, great athlete, came into the NFL pretty raw but put together this season at age 27:

 

Historic season

Culpepper enjoyed his best statistical season as a professional in 2004 and, though they were only 8–8, the Vikings reached the playoffs for the second time under Culpepper. Passing for a league-leading 4,717 yards, a Viking-record 39 touchdowns, and only 11 interceptions, Culpepper was named to his third career Pro Bowl. Culpepper also broke Dan Marino's NFL record for combined passing and rushing yards, amassing 5,123 total yards. His 2,323 rushing yards from 2000–2004 also made him only the fourth quarterback in NFL history to run for more than 2,300 yards in a five-season period. (Michael Vick had 3,570 from 2002–2006; Randall Cunningham had 3,232 from 1986–1990; and Steve McNair had 2,387 from 1997–2001). Culpepper’s career rushing average of 26.1 yards per game is fourth-best among quarterbacks in NFL history. Only Vick (47.3 yds/g), Cunningham (30.6 yds/g), and Bobby Douglass (29.8 yds/g) have averaged more rushing yards per game during their QB careers. After the 2004 season, Culpepper said the game had “slowed down” for him, saying

I feel like a Jedi Knight.[11][12][13]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daunte_Culpepper

 

69.2 completion percentage that year too. He was tremendous, and he was just entering his prime years. Or so we thought ...

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CulpDa00.htm

 

He ripped up his knee downfield when a tackler hit him low. He was never the same (although off the field behavior also helped to derail his career).

 

Yes, he had Randy Moss, but Moss only caught 49 balls. He also took a ton of sacks and had the likes of Onterrio Smith as his lead RB. We forget how good he was for a brief shining moment.

 

I will acknowledge he had two great years, one decent but the rest was terrible.  

 

[The Frankish Reich]

26 minutes ago, Real McNasty said:

Surprised Mahomes didn't make the cut. 

 

 

 

 

I left off Mahomes because he didn't meet my "averaged 30 yards per game rushing OR had a 400 yard rushing season." You could argue that he belongs. I do think there is a significant difference between how he plays the game vs. Allen, Hurts, and the other "running QBs" with respect to designed runs, pulling the ball down and taking off downfield when plays break down, etc. He strikes me as more of a pure situational buy time/scrambling QB who will run in important game situations when the opportunity is there. And that's reflected in the lower rushing yard totals.

3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I will acknowledge he had two great years, one decent but the rest was terrible.  

 

Terrible after the injury. 

That great 2004 season when they still only went 8-8? 26th ranked defense. Give him the Bills defense of 2021 and it would've been a different story.

[Royale with Cheese]

15 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I left off Mahomes because he didn't meet my "averaged 30 yards per game rushing OR had a 400 yard rushing season." You could argue that he belongs. I do think there is a significant difference between how he plays the game vs. Allen, Hurts, and the other "running QBs" with respect to designed runs, pulling the ball down and taking off downfield when plays break down, etc. He strikes me as more of a pure situational buy time/scrambling QB who will run in important game situations when the opportunity is there. And that's reflected in the lower rushing yard totals.

Terrible after the injury. 

That great 2004 season when they still only went 8-8? 26th ranked defense. Give him the Bills defense of 2021 and it would've been a different story.

 

The 3 years before his great 2004 season, his TD/INT was 57 TD/47 INT's.  That's pretty poor, the prime of his career and pre-injury.  

The defense gave up 24 points a game.  The offense scored 25 points a game.  

Edited July 27, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[Fleezoid]

Aside from maybe Russel Wilson and Mahomes, every Super Bowl winning QB has been that quintessential pocket QB. I've always thought/said, to win a championship you need that big 6' 3"+ pocket passer. I still think that. With that said, Allen is a big pocket QB that can run. He doesn't fit the mold of most of those running QBs.

[Matt_In_NH]

When Cunningham played at 35 he did not run much......that is the key, Josh has be long term be able to dominate more as a pocket guy.  I think it will be fine, he knows it.  He can already be successful as passer.  

[The Frankish Reich]

12 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

When Cunningham played at 35 he did not run much......that is the key, Josh has be long term be able to dominate more as a pocket guy.  I think it will be fine, he knows it.  He can already be successful as passer.  

True. That was a very different Randall Cunningham. And the best Randall Cunningham ever was, even at 35, and even as his age meant his legs were no longer a big weapon. Too bad it only lasted one season.

20 minutes ago, Fleezoid said:

Aside from maybe Russel Wilson and Mahomes, every Super Bowl winning QB has been that quintessential pocket QB. I've always thought/said, to win a championship you need that big 6' 3"+ pocket passer. I still think that. With that said, Allen is a big pocket QB that can run. He doesn't fit the mold of most of those running QBs.

Kaepernick came really, really close ...

[Malazan]

Ohh, ohh, now do "non-running" QBs

[Just in Atlanta]

A few notes:

Cam Newton scared me every time he ran. He had zero intuition about how to take a hit and looked awkward when he did - like a giraffe galloping in the savannah. It's like you expected him to break his leg and end up under a herd of lions. A truly awkward presence on and off the field. 

I second the comment about Elway. 

Mike Vick was a bad passer with bad form. 

Tyrod was "done as a starter" at 28 because he is of backup QB quality. He also had a freak injury caused by a DOCTOR. 

I know Roethlisberger wasn't a "running QB" per se but he held onto the ball forever and took massive hits before getting a new OC mid-late-career, who instructed him to lose weight and get rid of the ball quickly. I'd say his career went pretty long. Of all of these QBs, I'd say Allen most closely resembles him, although JA's talent is across the board better. 

[BillsShredder83]

The bulk of Josh's run yards come on scrambling. The defense is spread out by that point, he has good vision of where defenders are at, he can escape to a sideline or slide.

I realize he doesn't always do the best job at it, but generally these plays seem safe, and he's in control of what contact he takes. I love the scrambling, he has green light from me to take off when it makes sense. Do a better job getting down.

 

Now the designed runs are opposite of all this. They should never happen unless in redzone and dire, and occasionally on a critical 4th down. Outside of RZ and critical 4ths, this needs to leave playbook fully

[Nextmanup]

Josh's elite running ability won't last past 33 no matter what!

 

People get old.

 

Josh's running is an important part of his game; keep running Josh! 

 

And message to McClappy:  win the F-ing SB while you have a QB capable of full service.

 

Josh's running window is a hell of a lot smaller than his throwing window, regardless of injury.

 

 

 

[90sBills]

6 hours ago, Real McNasty said:

Surprised Mahomes didn't make the cut. 

 

 

 

 

He averages less than 4 rushing attempts per game with hardly any designed qb runs. People mistakenly think of him as a running guy because of his scrambling ability to buy time. He beats teams with his arm. If Allen can escalate his game to Mahomes’ level…watch out. 

[Doc]

16 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

It was a collision with Ngata that caused the initial acl tear for Bobby Griffin.  

 

All I saw after doing a search yesterday was a "mild knee sprain" after that hit.

[Chaos]

On 7/26/2023 at 5:34 PM, The Frankish Reich said:

yet no actual running (not "mobile" or "scrambling" - we're talking about the guys who pull it down and take off downfield) QB has made it past 33

How long to most non-running QBs make it in the NFL? 

[The Frankish Reich]

43 minutes ago, Chaos said:

How long to most non-running QBs make it in the NFL? 

Good question.

I thought about that. The quick answer is: that's why I limited the list to QBs who racked up a lot of rushing yards over at least two full seasons. In other words, starting QBs who had some record of success. There are a lot of non-running QBs who would meet a similar threshold for passes thrown/passing yards per game, etc., who washed out equally young. Think EJ Manuel. I'm not sure there's a good way to control for this.