"Running QBs Don't Last" - The Historical Record, and Why Everyone Wants Josh to Change His Game

[Chaos]

Steve Young is the most relevant comp. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Don't get me wrong. I would like to see Allen rush the ball less and dump the ball off to his running backs and wide receivers for them to take the hits.

But you included quarterbacks from eras where they could murder the quarterback in the pocket. It's completely different now. multiple protections for the quarterback in the pocket and outside of the pocket. Allen can last quite a long time still doing what hes doing today.

[Mr. WEO]

Too many bums on that list.  Allen has a few more years before he's "done at 33".

 

Let the guy play his game.  

[Billl]

  On 7/26/2023 at 10:36 PM, Doc said:

 

RG3's career was derailed by injury and playing him too soon early on.  As for Cam, he was a career sub-60% passer and then messed-up his shoulder.

Expand  

Yeah.  They literally both ended their careers early due to injuries.  That’s the entire point of the thread.

[BuffaloBillyG]

  On 7/26/2023 at 11:05 PM, Charles Romes said:

Um. Elway?

Expand  

This has always been my closest comparison for Allen. And just like Elway, if you take away the running game Allen can kill you from the pocket. Many of the guys on that list were more running QBs that were average throwers. 

 

And I believe just like Elway, the older Allen gets the more he learns and by the time he can't run for 700 yards a season he will be craftier and smarter in the pocket.

[Charles Romes]

Tarkenton retired at 38 as the all time passing leader in an era when qbs were not protected and no one knew anything about nutrition or physical therapy.  Maybe it was his great scrambling that helped him avoid taking huge hits standing in the pocket. 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Charles Romes

[Doc]

  On 7/26/2023 at 11:45 PM, Billl said:

Yeah.  They literally both ended their careers early due to injuries.  That’s the entire point of the thread.

Expand  

 

No the point was to say that running led to injuries and prematurely ended their careers.  Both had career altering injuries while passing the ball.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Doc

[Freddie's Dead]

All Josh's injuries have come in the pocket.

 

[Success]

It's been said already - but if Allen never ran another yard, he'd still be a top 5 QB in the league.

 

That's a real differentiator w/ the historical stats.  

[julian]

  On 7/27/2023 at 12:09 AM, Success said:

It's been said already - but if Allen never ran another yard, he'd still be a top 5 QB in the league.

 

That's a real differentiator w/ the historical stats.  

Expand  

Bingo… Allen will go down as the greatest duel threat QB of all time once his career ends.

[Mr. WEO]

  On 7/26/2023 at 11:45 PM, Billl said:

Yeah.  They literally both ended their careers early due to injuries.  That’s the entire point of the thread.

Expand  

RG recovered from his injury.  Turns out he was a flash in the pan.  

[Simon Says]

Too many flaws and inconsistencies to justify the time spent reading it.

[The Frankish Reich]

  On 7/26/2023 at 10:47 PM, Warcodered said:

A lot of these guys ran in different ways but you still included them?

Expand  

I tried to use an objective standard.
- an average of 30 yards rushing per game (roughly 500 yards per season) over a sustained period of 2+ years of starts. QBs who are mobile and more like old fashioned “scramblers” pretty much never hit that level. So it weeds them out and leaves us with the clear running QBs 

OR

- QBs who had at least one season (usually multiple seasons) of 400+ yards rushing. Again, this weeds out the scramblers and guys like Mahomes and Rodgers who don’t often run by design.

So … not perfect, but it avoids cherry picking to prove the hypothesis. 

  On 7/27/2023 at 12:09 AM, Success said:

It's been said already - but if Allen never ran another yard, he'd still be a top 5 QB in the league.

Expand  

Would he? I mean, I think so. But take away the run threat and would he be anywhere near the same guy? 

[LeGOATski]

Josh isn't a "running QB".... he's a QB that can run. If you're looking for exceptions, look no further. Josh is a Young, Favre, Roethlisberger, Elway, etc.

[The Frankish Reich]

  On 7/27/2023 at 1:00 AM, Herb Nightly said:

Too many flaws and inconsistencies to justify the time spent reading it.

Expand  

So the Bills and Allen are also damn fools for paying attention to such things. Or “this is why you are not in NFL management.”

  On 7/27/2023 at 1:10 AM, LeGOATski said:

Josh isn't a "running QB".... he's a QB that can run. If you're looking for exceptions, look no further. Josh is a Young, Favre, Roethlisberger, Elway, etc.

Expand  

Other than Young, while these guys could run, they weren’t heavily run dependent like Allen. 

[Simon]

  On 7/27/2023 at 1:11 AM, The Frankish Reich said:

 

Other than Young, while these guys could run, they weren’t heavily run dependent like Allen. 

Expand  

 

I don't know if that's a fair term.

Relative to those guys, I'd say he's in a lot more situations where he has to bail before he even hits his drop because he's about to get buried.

[Mr. WEO]

  On 7/27/2023 at 1:08 AM, The Frankish Reich said:

I tried to use an objective standard.
- an average of 30 yards rushing per game (roughly 500 yards per season) over a sustained period of 2+ years of starts. QBs who are mobile and more like old fashioned “scramblers” pretty much never hit that level. So it weeds them out and leaves us with the clear running QBs 

OR

- QBs who had at least one season (usually multiple seasons) of 400+ yards rushing. Again, this weeds out the scramblers and guys like Mahomes and Rodgers who don’t often run by design.

So … not perfect, but it avoids cherry picking to prove the hypothesis. 

Would he? I mean, I think so. But take away the run threat and would he be anywhere near the same guy? 

Expand  

name 5 better

[The Frankish Reich]

  On 7/27/2023 at 1:18 AM, Mr. WEO said:

name 5 better

Expand  

I’m saying we don’t know. RG3, Culpepper, Vick - all could still throw, but after the run was no longer a real threat they were backup quality at best. Randall Cunningham made the transition and was great in that one fluke season, but again … we just don’t know. 

  On 7/27/2023 at 12:42 AM, Mr. WEO said:

RG recovered from his injury.  Turns out he was a flash in the pan.  

Expand  

He recovered and could still throw, but without the huge run threat he just wasn’t very good anymore. 

[The Frankish Reich]

  On 7/26/2023 at 11:53 PM, BuffaloBillyG said:

This has always been my closest comparison for Allen. And just like Elway, if you take away the running game Allen can kill you from the pocket. Many of the guys on that list were more running QBs that were average throwers. 

 

And I believe just like Elway, the older Allen gets the more he learns and by the time he can't run for 700 yards a season he will be craftier and smarter in the pocket.

Expand  

Elway ran for 3400 yards over 16 seasons. Allen has already run for 3100 over 6. I hope you’re right about Allen’s future tracking Elway’s, but right now they’re not comparable with respect to how much their success depends on running. 

  On 7/26/2023 at 10:38 PM, The Frankish Reich said:

Well, those things aren't exactly independent from running the ball a lot and taking hits ...

Expand  

I forgot that Cam ascribed his shoulder problem to trying to make a tackle on an interception. So yes, you can carve out a “freak injury” exception for him. But to me he showed an overall decline in ability that went beyond that. 

[The Frankish Reich]

  On 7/26/2023 at 11:59 PM, Charles Romes said:

Tarkenton retired at 38 as the all time passing leader in an era when qbs were not protected and no one knew anything about nutrition or physical therapy.  Maybe it was his great scrambling that helped him avoid taking huge hits standing in the pocket. 

Expand  

Agreed. Which is why I tried to separate scramblers from runners. I see where you could move a Rodgers into the “runner” category (he did have some 300+ Yard rushing seasons) and make him another Steve Young exception. But what 70s QBs like Tarkenton and Staubach did seems very different to the way Allen, Lamar, Hurts, Fields play the game today. 

  On 7/27/2023 at 1:15 AM, Simon said:

 

I don't know if that's a fair term.

Relative to those guys, I'd say he's in a lot more situations where he has to bail before he even hits his drop because he's about to get buried.

Expand  

Well, yes. There's a difference between Lamar's Ravens offense and Allen's Bills offense (not to mention Fields and the Bears so-called offense, which involves Fields running for his life on every play). I think Hurts/Eagles is closest. It's not designed-run dependent, but the designed and undesigned runs are very important parts of their respective offenses.