Rewatching the Week 3 Dolphins game

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

LOL, OK, I can think of one, recently, that you gave me something other than an X.  I was actually surprised.  LOL  

 

When someone X's just about everything that someone else posts, then it makes it's own statement.  

 

How about this, which of the points on that list are so outrageous that they match your description?  And why?  

 

 

 

I didn't "X" your list. I don't agree with everything on it.... but there isn't sufficient on there that a) is clearly wrong or b) I strongly disagree with. You see how this works? When you say stuff that fits into a) or b) I "X" it. When you don't then I don't.

 

I think your "transplanted unit" thing is an overblown narrative though. Ken Dorsey and Eric Washington were on that Carolina staff but neither were key decision makers on that staff. Washington was their next in line but one as DC, but he wasn't a decision maker when McDermott was there. 

 

I actually do have a concern about the makeup of the upper echelons of the Bills staff but it isn't that they all came from Carolina who underperformed, because a) so what and b) I don't think they underperformed. My concern is I don't know who the voices that might challenge McDermott are now. Daboll would and contrary to the belief of many here because of his demenour, Leslie Frazier would too. My worry is whether the familiarity at the top now is conducive to sufficient challenge. I rate McDermott as a Head Coach much more highly than you but every Head Coach (and I do mean every Head Coach) needs people who can challenge him, not on the big stuff but on the myriad of smaller decisions an NFL HC has to make every single day. 

[PBF81]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I didn't "X" your list. I don't agree with everything on it.... but there isn't sufficient on there that a) is clearly wrong or b) I strongly disagree with. You see how this works? When you say stuff that fits into a) or b) I "X" it. When you don't then I don't.

 

I think your "transplanted unit" thing is an overblown narrative though. Ken Dorsey and Eric Washington were on that Carolina staff but neither were key decision makers on that staff. Washington was their next in line but one as DC, but he wasn't a decision maker when McDermott was there. 

 

I actually do have a concern about the makeup of the upper echelons of the Bills staff but it isn't that they all came from Carolina who underperformed, because a) so what and b) I don't think they underperformed. My concern is I don't know who the voices that might challenge McDermott are now. Daboll would and contrary to the belief of many here because of his demenour, Leslie Frazier would too. My worry is whether the familiarity at the top now is conducive to sufficient challenge. I rate McDermott as a Head Coach much more highly than you but every Head Coach (and I do mean every Head Coach) needs people who can challenge him, not on the big stuff but on the myriad of smaller decisions an NFL HC has to make every single day. 

 

Well great, but that's all nothing but opinion

Whether you, I, or anyone else likes it or not, the top five decision-makers & coaches here, four without question, now, were with McD in Carolina, which is a fact.  In Carolina two were directly under McD on D.  

 

It's also a fact that they've achieved nothing in either location and underachieved in both teams' biggest games and have otherwise ushered their teams to early playoff exits.  You will spin it anyway that you want 

 

But you skip the point, which is that between your take and mine, mine is based upon those two facts, yours is based upon mitigating those two facts and assuming something that as of yet had no basis in reality.  They have no other significant body of work, which quite frankly only reinforces my position, not yours.  

 

IOW, while you may not agree with it, hardly a big shock, LOL, for anyone to claim that it's completely unsubstantiated is wrong.  

 

In fact, Sal Maiorana's article today addresses one of those points in the same vein, so it's obviously not as charged.  

 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by PBF81

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Well great, but that's all nothing but opinion

Whether you, I, or anyone else likes it or not, the top five decision-makers & coaches here, four without question, now, were with McD in Carolina, which is a fact.  

 

It's also a fact that they've achieved nothing in either location and underachieved in both teams' biggest games and have otherwise ushered their teams to early playoff exits.  You will spin it anyway that you want 

 

But you skip the point, which is that between your take and mine, mine is based upon those two facts, yours is based upon mitigating those two facts and assuming something that as of yet had no basis in reality.  They have no other significant body of work, which quite frankly only reinforces my position, not yours.  

 

IOW, while you may not agree with it, hardly a big shock, LOL, for anyone to claim that it's completely unsubstantiated is wrong.  

 

In fact, Sal Maiorana's article today addresses one of those points in the same vein, so it's obviously not as charged.  

 

 

 

The bolded is not a fact. It is an opinion. You need to learn the difference. 

 

It is a fact that the top 4 decision makers - McDermott (HC), Beane (GM), Washington (AHC) and Dorsey (OC) - were all in Carolina. That is undisputed. Holcomb might be a 5th on that list but I am not sure how senior he is within this organisation. However, only McDermott and Beane where anywhere close to the decision making in Carolina. So even if I accept your assertion that they underachieved there (I don't) it doesn't mean anything about how likely they are to win here. 

 

I also didn't call that claim "completely unsubstantiated". I said I thought the narrative was overblown. You have the genesis of a point, but I think your conclusion is a stretch. 

 

And again, I didn't "X" that post. Because I didn't think it was a completely unsubstantiated post. Where I do, be safe in the knowledge I'll continue to call you out. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

Our biggest problem for 4 years was Fraizer. He cost us a real shot at a Super Bowl. The move was probably 2 years too late but I can’t wait to see what we look like with him home. Best move we have made in a while.

[Matt_In_NH]

This game was epic....I would like to watch it again if I had time.  It was weird how much the Bills offense had the ball, how many plays they ran, how successful they were but they did not generate points.   Other than the loss, the thing I hated about this game was the belly aching over the weather which is very unBuffalo like.   It was a war of attrition for the Bills offense and being in the sun had something to do with but so did living in a different climate and so did the shear number of plays run by the offense.

[buffblue]

7 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

This game was epic....I would like to watch it again if I had time.  It was weird how much the Bills offense had the ball, how many plays they ran, how successful they were but they did not generate points.   Other than the loss, the thing I hated about this game was the belly aching over the weather which is very unBuffalo like.   It was a war of attrition for the Bills offense and being in the sun had something to do with but so did living in a different climate and so did the shear number of plays run by the offense.

I mean, it was approximately 30 degrees hotter on the Bills sideline than Miami's. The disparity between the conditions each team faced was ridiculous. There's a reason why guys like Diggs who are in tip top physical condition were still cramping up

[Matt_In_NH]

46 minutes ago, buffblue said:

I mean, it was approximately 30 degrees hotter on the Bills sideline than Miami's. The disparity between the conditions each team faced was ridiculous. There's a reason why guys like Diggs who are in tip top physical condition were still cramping up

I explained the reason.

[PBF81]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The bolded is not a fact. It is an opinion. You need to learn the difference. 

 

It is a fact that the top 4 decision makers - McDermott (HC), Beane (GM), Washington (AHC) and Dorsey (OC) - were all in Carolina. That is undisputed. Holcomb might be a 5th on that list but I am not sure how senior he is within this organisation. However, only McDermott and Beane where anywhere close to the decision making in Carolina. So even if I accept your assertion that they underachieved there (I don't) it doesn't mean anything about how likely they are to win here. 

 

I also didn't call that claim "completely unsubstantiated". I said I thought the narrative was overblown. You have the genesis of a point, but I think your conclusion is a stretch. 

 

And again, I didn't "X" that post. Because I didn't think it was a completely unsubstantiated post. Where I do, be safe in the knowledge I'll continue to call you out. 

 

I'll tell you what, let's simply cut to the chase.  Here is who's on staff in our coaching dept.:  

 

Sean McDermott, Head Coach: Defensive Coordinator @ Carolina from 2011 – 2016

 

Ken Dorsey, Offensive Coordinator: QB Coach and Scout @ Carolina from 2011-2016

 

Eric Washington, Senior Defensive Asst./DL: DL Coach @ Carolina from 2011-2016

 

Mike Shula, Senior Offensive Asst.: Offensive Coordinator and QB Coach @ Carolina from 2011-2016

 

Al Holcomb, Senior Defensive Asst.: Linebackers Coach @ Carolina from 2013-2016 

 

No matter how you slice it, those are the top two guys on offense:  Dorsey & Shula, and McD, Washington, and Holcomb on D.  Collectively or individually, they will be making ALL key decisions for the team on the field.  

 

What, in their primary roles, has each achieved, top honors, during their tenure in the NFL?  

 

Then say what inspires you about those achievements in their now leading us this season?  

 

That's a more substantive approach than a lady's tea argument and airing of grievances session. 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by PBF81

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

I'll tell you what, let's simply cut to the chase.  Here is who's on staff in our coaching dept.:  

 

Sean McDermott, Head Coach: Defensive Coordinator @ Carolina from 2011 – 2016

 

Ken Dorsey, Offensive Coordinator: QB Coach and Scout @ Carolina from 2011-2016

 

Eric Washington, Senior Defensive Asst./DL: DL Coach @ Carolina from 2011-2016

 

Mike Shula, Senior Offensive Asst.: Offensive Coordinator and QB Coach @ Carolina from 2011-2016

 

Al Holcomb, Senior Defensive Asst.: Linebackers Coach @ Carolina from 2013-2016 

 

No matter how you slice it, those are the top two guys on offense:  Dorsey & Shula, and McD, Washington, and Holcomb on D.  Collectively or individually, they will be making ALL key decisions for the team on the field.  

 

What, in their primary roles, has each achieved, top honors, during their tenure in the NFL?  

 

Then say what inspires you about those achievements in their now leading us this season?  

 

That's a more substantive approach than a lady's tea argument and airing of grievances session. 

 

I don't know that Shula and Holcomb are going to be key decision makers. The way teams actually use the Senior Assistant title varies greatly from guys who are intently involved in game planning and play calling to guys who work almost exclusively on special projects scouting future opponents and following trends in the league. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. McDermott, Washington and Dorsey are, that is beyond doubt. 

 

As for your question after that, if you are asking me what they have done well, I think with McDermott it is self-evident. I think with Dorsey his first year as a coordinator was a pretty successful one, as for Washington - fair, I think he sucked as the DC in Carolina when he got that gig and while it is always hard to equate position coach impact with position performance it is completely fair to say our defensive line didn't wow anyone last season. 

[FireChans]

45 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

I'll tell you what, let's simply cut to the chase.  Here is who's on staff in our coaching dept.:  

 

Sean McDermott, Head Coach: Defensive Coordinator @ Carolina from 2011 – 2016

 

Ken Dorsey, Offensive Coordinator: QB Coach and Scout @ Carolina from 2011-2016

 

Eric Washington, Senior Defensive Asst./DL: DL Coach @ Carolina from 2011-2016

 

Mike Shula, Senior Offensive Asst.: Offensive Coordinator and QB Coach @ Carolina from 2011-2016

 

Al Holcomb, Senior Defensive Asst.: Linebackers Coach @ Carolina from 2013-2016 

 

No matter how you slice it, those are the top two guys on offense:  Dorsey & Shula, and McD, Washington, and Holcomb on D.  Collectively or individually, they will be making ALL key decisions for the team on the field.  

 

What, in their primary roles, has each achieved, top honors, during their tenure in the NFL?  

 

Then say what inspires you about those achievements in their now leading us this season?  

 

That's a more substantive approach than a lady's tea argument and airing of grievances session. 

 

 

We should only hire position coaches who single-handedly won Super Bowls. Does Pat Mahomes want to be our QB coach?

[YattaOkasan]

On 7/24/2023 at 6:56 PM, PBF81 said:

 

LOL, because yeah, firing the S's Coach was great corrective action.  I can see how one would need to be Bill Polian to figure that out.   LOL  

 

 

Have you considered that Frazier leaving was his corrective action?  If that was you would have to agree he didnt throw him under the bus.  Overall the departure of Frazier is a really great counter point of McD not throwing people under the bus.  He could've slammed the defense but didnt.  

[PBF81]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I don't know that Shula and Holcomb are going to be key decision makers. The way teams actually use the Senior Assistant title varies greatly from guys who are intently involved in game planning and play calling to guys who work almost exclusively on special projects scouting future opponents and following trends in the league. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. McDermott, Washington and Dorsey are, that is beyond doubt. 

 

OK, then by implication, Dorsey's going to be making the entirety of key decisions offensively speaking while McD and Washington make all of the key defensive decisions.   

 

The point was that it's not going to be asst. coaches like Austin Gund making them offensively or Jaylon Finner on defense.  

 

The question still stands.  

 

 

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

As for your question after that, if you are asking me what they have done well, I think with McDermott it is self-evident. I think with Dorsey his first year as a coordinator was a pretty successful one, as for Washington - fair, I think he sucked as the DC in Carolina when he got that gig and while it is always hard to equate position coach impact with position performance it is completely fair to say our defensive line didn't wow anyone last season. 

 

 I think that McD is self-evident too.  Built a good culture, loses in the early rounds, doesn't have what it takes in the most important games, as I mentioned even Maiorana sums up nicely in today's piece;  (aka not just me with this take, and far from it)  

 

As to Dorsey, "successful" is relative, but when you have Allen it's difficult to not be "successful."   The question is did he perform at optimal levels, and I haven't seen anyone argue that he did.  But what's Dorsey's track record of success otherwise?   While you may be inspired by last season's performance by him, many still have questions, myself included.  That's hardly an unreasonable take.  

 

As to Washington, you answered my question directly re: him.  The more direct answer, per yourself, was that he's done absolutely nothing that should inspire confidence.  Whether that remarkably changes this season, or whether McD's management of the D ends up being better than it was in Carolina and supercedes any influeces of Washington (or Holcomb by implication) remains to be seen.  

 

Either way, I don't think that that take by myself is so ridiculous as to warrant being blocked from the site as Primetime101 says.  

 

 

4 hours ago, FireChans said:

We should only hire position coaches who single-handedly won Super Bowls. Does Pat Mahomes want to be our QB coach?

 

So those are the only two options in your world?  

Hire A, completely non-inspiring coaches, or ...

 

B, coaches that single-handedly won Super Bowls.  

 

Noted.  Got it!  

 

It's no wonder we have these petty arguments.  LOL  

 

 

[PBF81]

4 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

Have you considered that Frazier leaving was his corrective action?  If that was you would have to agree he didnt throw him under the bus.  Overall the departure of Frazier is a really great counter point of McD not throwing people under the bus.  He could've slammed the defense but didnt.  

 

Not the point.  Frazier leaving was hardly a bold move by McD that grabbed the bull by the horns while assessing responsibility for our abysmal playoff performance(s).  

 

Let's not circumvent the original point.  

 

And no, it sounds like more of a very weak action by someone that's supposed to be ensuring that this team puts its best foot forward season to season and week to week, particularly in the playoffs.  This just in, but Frazier's been here for 6 seasons.  If Frazier was the issue, why did it take so long, and then why was the entire thing half shrouded in secrecy.  

 

Either way, so you then think that firing a position coach for a unit that's been the team's strength showed top-notch resolve and determination in correcting our playoff woes?   LOL ... really?  Because that's the implication.  That's fine if so, I have no issues with it other than being laughable as I view it.  Again, I'm hardly the only one on that as many called it out.  

 

IMO it was a weak response by a head coach that clearly didn't want to implicate his own DC, for who knows which of several logical reasons.  

 

 

[FireChans]

22 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

OK, then by implication, Dorsey's going to be making the entirety of key decisions offensively speaking while McD and Washington make all of the key defensive decisions.   

 

The point was that it's not going to be asst. coaches like Austin Gund making them offensively or Jaylon Finner on defense.  

 

The question still stands.  

 

 

 

 I think that McD is self-evident too.  Built a good culture, loses in the early rounds, doesn't have what it takes in the most important games, as I mentioned even Maiorana sums up nicely in today's piece;  (aka not just me with this take, and far from it)  

 

As to Dorsey, "successful" is relative, but when you have Allen it's difficult to not be "successful."   The question is did he perform at optimal levels, and I haven't seen anyone argue that he did.  But what's Dorsey's track record of success otherwise?   While you may be inspired by last season's performance by him, many still have questions, myself included.  That's hardly an unreasonable take.  

 

As to Washington, you answered my question directly re: him.  The more direct answer, per yourself, was that he's done absolutely nothing that should inspire confidence.  Whether that remarkably changes this season, or whether McD's management of the D ends up being better than it was in Carolina and supercedes any influeces of Washington (or Holcomb by implication) remains to be seen.  

 

Either way, I don't think that that take by myself is so ridiculous as to warrant being blocked from the site as Primetime101 says.  

 

 

 

So those are the only two options in your world?  

Hire A, completely non-inspiring coaches, or ...

 

B, coaches that single-handedly won Super Bowls.  

 

Noted.  Got it!  

 

It's no wonder we have these petty arguments.  LOL  

 

 

What do you define as an inspiring hire? Was Nick Sirianni inspiring? Was Andy Reid inspiring, with his 1 million playoff chokes? Was BB an inspiring hire, a guy who was a good DC and failed at his last HC job?

[PBF81]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

What do you define as an inspiring hire? Was Nick Sirianni inspiring? Was Andy Reid inspiring, with his 1 million playoff chokes? Was BB an inspiring hire, a guy who was a good DC and failed at his last HC job?

 

So your implication then is that there were no better people more competent and more accomplished than Washington, Holcomb, Dorsey and Shula.  

 

That's fine, I simply disagree.  Again, it's also not some far fetched strange position to hold, which is part of the primary point here.  

 

But you do you.   

 

 

[GunnerBill]

30 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

OK, then by implication, Dorsey's going to be making the entirety of key decisions offensively speaking while McD and Washington make all of the key defensive decisions.   

 

The point was that it's not going to be asst. coaches like Austin Gund making them offensively or Jaylon Finner on defense.  

 

The question still stands.  

 

 

 

 I think that McD is self-evident too.  Built a good culture, loses in the early rounds, doesn't have what it takes in the most important games, as I mentioned even Maiorana sums up nicely in today's piece;  (aka not just me with this take, and far from it)  

 

As to Dorsey, "successful" is relative, but when you have Allen it's difficult to not be "successful."   The question is did he perform at optimal levels, and I haven't seen anyone argue that he did.  But what's Dorsey's track record of success otherwise?   While you may be inspired by last season's performance by him, many still have questions, myself included.  That's hardly an unreasonable take.  

 

As to Washington, you answered my question directly re: him.  The more direct answer, per yourself, was that he's done absolutely nothing that should inspire confidence.  Whether that remarkably changes this season, or whether McD's management of the D ends up being better than it was in Carolina and supercedes any influeces of Washington (or Holcomb by implication) remains to be seen.  

 

Either way, I don't think that that take by myself is so ridiculous as to warrant being blocked from the site as Primetime101 says.  

 

 

 

So those are the only two options in your world?  

Hire A, completely non-inspiring coaches, or ...

 

B, coaches that single-handedly won Super Bowls.  

 

Noted.  Got it!  

 

It's no wonder we have these petty arguments.  LOL  

 

 

 

So you only think someone answers directly when they agree with you? How convenient.

 

D- do better.

[YattaOkasan]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

Not the point.  Frazier leaving was hardly a bold move by McD that grabbed the bull by the horns while assessing responsibility for our abysmal playoff performance(s).  

 

Let's not circumvent the original point.  

 

And no, it sounds like more of a very weak action by someone that's supposed to be ensuring that this team puts its best foot forward season to season and week to week, particularly in the playoffs.  This just in, but Frazier's been here for 6 seasons.  If Frazier was the issue, why did it take so long, and then why was the entire thing half shrouded in secrecy.  

 

Either way, so you then think that firing a position coach for a unit that's been the team's strength showed top-notch resolve and determination in correcting our playoff woes?   LOL ... really?  Because that's the implication.  That's fine if so, I have no issues with it other than being laughable as I view it.  Again, I'm hardly the only one on that as many called it out.  

 

IMO it was a weak response by a head coach that clearly didn't want to implicate his own DC, for who knows which of several logical reasons.  

 

 

I disagree that Salgado was the coach for the team's strength.  As mentioned multiple times, he took over the safety coach duties in 2022.  Bobby Babich was the safety coach from 2017 to 2021 when the unit played its best.  I dont know how you have perspective on resolve or determination from Salgado.  I find your defense of Salgado as the coach for the teams strength to be laughable when it clearly became a strength under someone else.  

 

The original point from our discussion was McD throwing people under the bus.  Maybe the reason he kept Frazier here for 6 seasons was cause he wanted to support him to his next head coaching job which ultimately never came.  As you noted the whole thing was shrouded in secrecy likely cause they didnt want to throw him under the bus.  Nothing about how they handled Frazier indicates a willingness to throw someone under the bus.

[BigDingus]

Oh god, that play sums up a consistent fear I've had the last few years watching games.

 

A 3rd & long always feels like an inevitable conversion... When the Bills do make a stop, I'm more surprised (and relieved) than I feel should be normal. 

 

The best example to describe the feeling is that I feel more relaxed on 3rd & 5 than I do on 3rd & 15. It should be the opposite right?!

 

I hope McDermott really does change that.

[first_and_ten]

On 7/23/2023 at 11:50 PM, buffblue said:

Mostly known for the insane heat the game featured, I decided to take a closer look as the 2023 season fast approaches. There has been much talk about McD taking over the defensive playcalling this year and how he will hopefully improve on Frazier's soft tendencies. I don't know how this will turn out, but the Week 3 game against the Dolphins revealed yet another example of Leslie playing it conservative in crunch time.

 

The situation: Miami faces a 3rd and 22 from around midfield with the Bills leading by 3 early in the 4th. Buffalo had aggressively stuffed the Dolphins to put them in what should have been a hopeless situation to convert. But rather than continuing to bring the heat against a subpar Miami OL (and with an obviously concussed Tua), Frazier elects to run a 3 man rush and our decimated secondary (missing all 4 nominal starters) gives up an easy bomb to Waddle inside the 5 resulting in the Dolphins taking the lead.

 

We all have our complaints as fans, many of them right and plenty wrong. But one thing I am optimistic about going into the 2023 season is the possibility of the Bills becoming an attacking defense. I'm OK with them giving up more yards and even a few more PPG if we can make more impact plays defensively. With Josh in his prime, we should always have an above average scoring offense. The complementary aspect of the game and making a few more critical, game changing plays each Sunday could pay far more dividends than the what the traditional statistical rankings imply.

 

I like your post. I hate the 3 man rush. I think it's a stupid play. 

[PBF81]

4 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

I find your defense of Salgado as the coach for the teams strength to be laughable when it clearly became a strength under someone else.  

 

The original point from our discussion was McD throwing people under the bus. 

 

You do realize there's a contradiction there, right?  

 

Otherwise, I'm hardly defending Salgado, but anyone thinking that he was in any way primarily responsible for our piss poor playoff performance this past playoffs, I"m speechless.  

 

 

4 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

Maybe the reason he kept Frazier here for 6 seasons was cause he wanted to support him to his next head coaching job which ultimately never came.  As you noted the whole thing was shrouded in secrecy likely cause they didnt want to throw him under the bus.  Nothing about how they handled Frazier indicates a willingness to throw someone under the bus.

 

Thanks for validating my premise.  Because if that's why McD kept him here, then if what he's saying and implying now is true, then it was to our detriment as a team.  

 

To your last point, why was Salgado fired then only days following our loss to the Bengals, and the only one fired?  

 

Do you think that the guy they hired to replace him will be better?  Why?