Rewatching the Week 3 Dolphins game

[Beck Water]

9 hours ago, PBF81 said:

Except that McD isn't, he's become very effective at throwing others under the bus furtively. 

 

That's a phrasing which seems like a contradiction in terms.

 

If you "throw someone under the bus", you hold them out publicly as blameworthy or at fault for a situation.

 

On the other hand, part of leadership is to hold subordinates accountable - current standards for "best management" say this should be done privately and/or kept within the organization.  So if a FA is left to sign with another team, a coordinator quietly encouraged to  seek another position, or a position coach retires, that wouldn't typically be described as "throwing them under the bus"

 

So how can you "furtively throw others under the bus"?

[Dr.Sack]

Turnovers and missed FGs normally lead to Ls.

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You talk nonsense. You said he scapegoated the safeties coach who "had the best unit on the team during the McDermott era."

 

You haven't got a clue what you are on about. Best if you bow out now. 

 

LOL, because yeah, firing the S's Coach was great corrective action.  I can see how one would need to be Bill Polian to figure that out.   LOL  

 

 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

That's a phrasing which seems like a contradiction in terms.

 

If you "throw someone under the bus", you hold them out publicly as blameworthy or at fault for a situation.

 

On the other hand, part of leadership is to hold subordinates accountable - current standards for "best management" say this should be done privately and/or kept within the organization.  So if a FA is left to sign with another team, a coordinator quietly encouraged to  seek another position, or a position coach retires, that wouldn't typically be described as "throwing them under the bus"

 

So how can you "furtively throw others under the bus"?

 

Whatever, you guys really like to argue the point contrarily that McD has never taken responsibility for his team's miscues other than indirectly via statements that leave people believing that it was someone else's fault but his.   Most other coaches wouldn't have escaped the scrutiny that he's been able to successfully avoid.   

 

Again, this season, as someone said, will finally be one that tells us what's going on.  If the D slips tremendously, as I expect it to, then we have more info as to what's really going on.  

 

Time will tell, no need to argue or bicker.  We'll very clearly know come January.   And if we continue more on McD's ways of playoff ousters under his guidance as both DC and HC, then that will provide even more info.  12 seasons.  6 as DC, 6 as HC.  8 playoff appearances.  2 Wild Card Round losses, 4 Divisional Round losses, one horrific CC loss, and a Super Bowl loss to a team led by one of the worst QBs in that given season.  

 

Something's gotta change, and it's gotta change this season.   If it doesn't the narrative momentum shift should be significant.  Anything that I have to say doesn't matter whatsoever.  

 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by PBF81

[RyanC883]

19 hours ago, mrags said:

Really hope you’re right. But it’s hard to argue the fact that Frazier was the DC for years. Even after the .13 debacle they stuck with him. There’s more proof out there that McDermott was not only accepting of it, that it’s his in the first place. We’ve all been over this before though and it won’t go anywhere except multiple people arguing with each other. Fear not, just about every thread right now will be shelved in just 2 days as camp starts. 

the good news is that if this is true, there is no one for McD to scapegoat after this year for defensive issues. 

[Richard Noggin]

9 hours ago, ngbills said:

Actually its the opposite. When you have elite DB's you can attack more and take chances. With the guys we had playing they need some help. They are not going win the numbers game its just a matter of time. 

 

Interesting, and obviously you're not the only one saying this. But we've got Johnson and Hamlin playing safety, a four man rush that just does NOT get pressure, and everyone is criminally exhausted. So the QB knows exactly what he's seeing, his linemen have the advantage against overheated big men, and the receivers are on the same page with their QB on top of the home field advantage. 

 

Gotta disrupt that somehow. 

[Utah John]

Edmunds was the glue that Frazier's defense depended on.  His size and speed took away a huge area of the defense, and that made the style of D the Bills played work.  But what Edmunds is NOT is an attacking, vicious, hitting, intuitive, tough defender.  

 

I don't think it was a coincidence that Edmunds and Frazier left at the same time.  Frazier's system was not going to work without Edmunds.  Very possibly, considering the return of White to full health, and Hyde, the Bills D could turn out to be better than ever with McD and a new guy as MLB.  If that new guy is an attacking, vicious, hitting, intuitive and tough defender.

[Richard Noggin]

3 minutes ago, Utah John said:

Edmunds was the glue that Frazier's defense depended on.  His size and speed took away a huge area of the defense, and that made the style of D the Bills played work.  But what Edmunds is NOT is an attacking, vicious, hitting, intuitive, tough defender.  

 

I don't think it was a coincidence that Edmunds and Frazier left at the same time.  Frazier's system was not going to work without Edmunds.  Very possibly, considering the return of White to full health, and Hyde, the Bills D could turn out to be better than ever with McD and a new guy as MLB.  If that new guy is an attacking, vicious, hitting, intuitive and tough defender.

 

Wish there was a contemplative reaction emoji, like a "hmm" reaction. 

 

I don't love the 1st paragraph, but I might like the 2nd paragraph very much? 

[mrags]

4 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

the good news is that if this is true, there is no one for McD to scapegoat after this year for defensive issues. 

Doesn’t matter. McD isn’t going anywhere. His scapegoat will be he had too much on his plate and needs to hire someone next season to allow him to be more available to the rest of the team. 

[PrimeTime101]

17 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

Whatever, you guys really like to argue the point contrarily that McD has never taken responsibility for his team's miscues other than indirectly via statements that leave people believing that it was someone else's fault but his.   Most other coaches wouldn't have escaped the scrutiny that he's been able to successfully avoid.   

 

Again, this season, as someone said, will finally be one that tells us what's going on.  If the D slips tremendously, as I expect it to, then we have more info as to what's really going on.  

 

Time will tell, no need to argue or bicker.  We'll very clearly know come January.   And if we continue more on McD's ways of playoff ousters under his guidance as both DC and HC, then that will provide even more info.  12 seasons.  6 as DC, 6 as HC.  8 playoff appearances.  2 Wild Card Round losses, 4 Divisional Round losses, one horrific CC loss, and a Super Bowl loss to a team led by one of the worst QBs in that given season.  

 

Something's gotta change, and it's gotta change this season.   If it doesn't the narrative momentum shift should be significant.  Anything that I have to say doesn't matter whatsoever.  

 

 

Right now you have several "Roadrunners" on you, and you are the "Coyote" and you are in slow motion that that TNT will never blow up in your face till it does... and when it happens, your only solution is to try something else that just won't work. When you have dug a hole 6' deep for someone else? and realize it is for you. You have had one horrible narrative after another on these forums and I feel it's time we just block you and be gone. 

 

I could go through this long laundry list of your horrible narratives but... It would be just a waste of time.

 

Good Riddance 

 

Bolded, Best advice I ever got. Thanks @NewEra

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by PrimeTime101

[teef]

scapegoat.  just wanted to say it.

[PBF81]

13 hours ago, Utah John said:

Edmunds was the glue that Frazier's defense depended on.  His size and speed took away a huge area of the defense, and that made the style of D the Bills played work.  But what Edmunds is NOT is an attacking, vicious, hitting, intuitive, tough defender.  

 

I don't think it was a coincidence that Edmunds and Frazier left at the same time.  Frazier's system was not going to work without Edmunds.  Very possibly, considering the return of White to full health, and Hyde, the Bills D could turn out to be better than ever with McD and a new guy as MLB.  If that new guy is an attacking, vicious, hitting, intuitive and tough defender.

 

That's an interesting thought!  That correlation never crossed my mind.  

 

My first thought is why is Edmunds not an attacking, vicious, hitting, intuitive, tough defender when he was at VA Tech?   It seems as if the consensus is that it was his role, which implies how it was assigned by the coaches.  Seems to me good coaches could have changed his role and put him more in a position to succeed, to whatever extent they had envisioned.  I'm firmly of the opinion that the reason why he hasn't been as good as people think he should have been, was because he was being asked to do the job of two LBs much of the time, largely because they've never been able to find another, a third, starting LB, after Lorax left.  Prior to that time we had 3 starting LBs.  

 

I'm also not convinced that he's not suited to McD's new system, whatever that will be.  One of the traits on Edmunds coming out of college was his versatility including "attack" implicitly.  It would seem that he's gone because the team had to decide between Oliver and him financially.  I'd have opted for Edmunds only due to the massive hole(s) it leaves us, but that's irrelevant.  IMO he'll be much better where he is now and will excel there, ... also irrelevant.  

 

Here's the thing about McD's new D being "attacking," that I've been asking what that even means.  Defenses entire definition is to attack, not pull back on the throttle like we've done in our biggest games.  Either way, one needs the talent to pull it off, whatever the scheme/style.  I'm not sure that we have that on D.  We don't have any pass-rushers that are proven consistent in that role.  Rousseau faded after the first four games, dramatically.  It's almost not possible (never say never) to get the value (contract) we've put into Miller out of him at this point.  

 

Consider all of the best Ds historically, you know them.  But to me it's a little bit like a catch-22, they were great because they had talent spread out all across the defense both starting and depth.  The "style" only optimized that talent.  To me a great DC would be able to change up his scheme to match his talent.  Do we have that talent at say MLB?  Completely unknown.  Klein's obviously not it.  Right now Bernard's the likely starter in the spot, but last year's rookie performance by him is hardly inspiring.  I realize that the narrative on rookie draftee Williams has him potentially playing the position, but the reality there is that his draft previews all discount any notions that he's capable of taking on that role, he's more suited to back-up Milano at WLB, but we need starters, which is my theory as to why we only play 2 LBs.  Will that change?  Who knows, we'll find out soon though.  We can talk about how he'll be what McD needs at MLB, but it's all talk until it happens, and given Beane's draft history, it's rare for him to land those types of players.  I have no idea what their draft process is analytically speaking, but it's not working to that extent.  We always have to sign free-agents for our top roles.  Diggs, Miller, Poyer, Hyde, Morse.  

 

As to attacking, so we've just touched on the LBs, but how about the DL.  What's changed since last season, effectively?  Not much.  Oliver got paid, but he's the same player.  I anticipate that he'll improve as he enters his prime, but it's not guaranteed, and the opposite could happen as well, particularly in a new system, although that would seem to favor him.  We brought in Poona Ford, great depth but he won't move the needle and it wouldn't surprise me if he gets cut.  He hasn't exactly distinguished himself otherwise.  It's quite likely that at 34 now coming off of that knee injury that Miller's finished as an above-average player much less as a premier player.  We'll be lucky if he's an average starter later on this season.  He may shatter paradigms, but what are the odds of that happening.  Only one player last season at 34 finished with double-digit sacks and that was an anomaly.  

 

Of all the players that logged 4 or more sacks last season, only three, those three, were 34 or older.  Hughes (9) and Brandon Graham (11) were both 34.  Calais Campbell (5.5) was 36.  Graham was the outlier, but he was also surrounded by talent that Miller won't have, in fact, Miller's supposed to be that talent that brings the others up, not the one that needs it around him to succeed.  

 

As to the secondary, the hope is that White returns to All-Pro form.  Big questionmark there.  Will he do that?  Will he simply return to be a top CB but not in the top-10 say, or will he simply be an average or slightly better-than-average CB.  We don't know.  

 

Anyway, we could go on ... 

 

Hyde's back

Poyer's knee 

Allen's elbow 

Hamlin of course although he's a backup.  

 

One would think that regular rotation of players is part of that "attacking defense" that you cite, but we've been doing that under Frazier as well, so that part of it is not new.  Will Oliver for example be expected to bump up his ~ 50% snap count to 60-70%?   How would he be if so.  

 

Also, concerning me the most is that our coaching staff, again, now pretty much fully transplanted under McD from Carolina, has never achieved anything significant.  Their trend is to underachieve in the biggest of games;  Super Bowl 50, 2021 AFC CG.  Otherwise lose in the D/WC rounds while typically underachieving.  

 

We will hope for the best, but saying something is one thing, actually getting it done is another.  If anything, whether people want to hear it or not, we've been more sizzle than steak in the playoffs under McD with Allen performing the way he has, and that's what it's all about, how you perform against the best in the playoffs. 

 

Go Bills!!!   Time for actual football.  

 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by PBF81

[PBF81]

32 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

You have had one horrible narrative after another on these forums and I feel it's time we just block you and be gone. 

 

I could go through this long laundry list of your horrible narratives but... It would be just a waste of time.

 

Your call.  I'm sorry that my posts irritate you so much, really.  

 

Re: narratives, I think you've got it backwards.  I don't do narratives, I challenge them.  They're narratives because they're popular.   I'm not very big on "everyone says ..." kinda stuff, simply because "everyone says."  More stuff that's said league-wide every seaosn does not happen rather than happens, team and player(s) alike.  

 

Maybe wait until the end of the season to see whether or not they turn out to be true and therefore valid?  If they don't, then feel free to hammer me all you want on them.  I'd even encourage it and would probably get a good chuckle myeslf on them.  Until then, I always back up what my takes are, whether you and others like it or not, which I can do nothing about.  

 

Besides, it's just discussion.  If my posts irritate you so much, and I mean this sincerely, then why read 'em.  It's borderline stalking otherwise.  Gunnerbill arbitrarily "X's" every one of my posts that he seems to see.  LOL  I anticipate it when I see a notification from him.  There are posters that I won't read, I don't have them on ignore, but I simply skip over them.  I don't understand the seeming animus.  I always try to answer posts directed at me, which some consider to be bad form, but IMO it would be bad form to ignore them.  I deliberately go out of my way often to avoid getting into exchanges that I know are purely argumentative with no genuine exchange of ideas.  I don't always succeed, but I do my best.  

 

We all want the same thing, or most of us anyway, which is a Championship.  Although some have openly expressed simple contentment with winning seasons and playoff appearances without ever winning the big game, but that's fine.  I don't take issue with it if that's what they're satisfied with.  

 

Cheers!  

 

Go BILLS!!!  

 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by PBF81

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I could go through this long laundry list of your horrible narratives but... It would be just a waste of time.

 

I'd be curious to see that laundry list.  I'm happy to go over how I see them.  I'll post a few of my understandings that I realize aren't popular, they're hardly on an island and they're hardly all critical.  

 

A.  IMO McD's not the coach to take us to the promised land.  I'm far from the only one that believes that at this point in time.  Yes, I understand the "culture" that he's built, but culture is one thing, a championship is another.  I often think that many cannot distinguish between the two.  But I also think that this season provides fewer options for him to shed blame should that repeat itself.  

 

B.  Gabe Davis is better than most say.  Also unpopular.  

 

C.  Our LB unit is questionable at best.  Again, far from the only one saying that.  Milano's the only proven LB there.  

 

D.  More recently, no one was held accountable for our flop in the playoffs this past seaon.  Salgado, a coach involved with our best unit on the team during his stint here, was fired, but no one else.  That's factual, whether populare or unpopular, in the eyes of the beholder.  

 

E.  We have the potential to be the best Bills' offense in franchise history this season.  Standing in the way of or aiding that is Dorsey.  

 

F.  Our WRs are more than enough for any good QB to post a great season.  

 

G.  We have no premiere pass-rushers without Miller, who's not likely to ever return to the form he was in, with history, relating to age, not on his side.  

 

H.  Our coaching staff, the top part of it anyway, the decision-makers, are essentially now a transplanted unit from McD's time in Carolina.  That's also factual.  Whether some view that as a good thing or not, again, is in the eyes of the beholder.  This beholder sees a coaching staff that fell short against one of the worst QBs in the league that season in SB 50, and one that cost us an AFC Championship and quite possibly an NFL Championship, and that have otherwise lost 4 Divisional playoff games and 2 Wild Card playoff games, generally speaking to teams not as good.  

 

I.  Allen does way too much and "covers a multitude of sins" otherwise.  Hardly unique there.  

 

J.  Our designed running game from the RBs is underutilized.  Same there, hardly unique.  

 

K.  Our OL may be the best it's been in years.  

 

L.  I'm not expecting Kincaid as a rookie to shatter the rookie records, especially under Dorsey who's still in OJT mode.  

 

Other than guessing, like everyone else, who's going to be cut or the like, I'm not seeing which many of these are so unbearable to read or consider.  

 

Help me out.  I mean which are entirely not possible or false?  Otherwise, which of the many in that laundry list that are so hard to swallow did I miss?  Again, sorry that you're so upset about these.  Truly.  It's hardly my intention to piss anyone off.  

 

 

[SectionC3]

2 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

I'd be curious to see that laundry list.  I'm happy to go over how I see them.  I'll post a few of my understandings that I realize aren't popular, they're hardly on an island and they're hardly all critical.  

 

A.  IMO McD's not the coach to take us to the promised land.  I'm far from the only one that believes that at this point in time.  Yes, I understand the "culture" that he's built, but culture is one thing, a championship is another.  I often think that many cannot distinguish between the two.  But I also think that this season provides fewer options for him to shed blame should that repeat itself.  

 

B.  Gabe Davis is better than most say.  Also unpopular.  

 

C.  Our LB unit is questionable at best.  Again, far from the only one saying that.  Milano's the only proven LB there.  

 

D.  More recently, no one was held accountable for our flop in the playoffs this past seaon.  Salgado, a coach involved with our best unit on the team during his stint here, was fired, but no one else.  That's factual, whether populare or unpopular, in the eyes of the beholder.  

 

E.  We have the potential to be the best Bills' offense in franchise history this season.  Standing in the way of or aiding that is Dorsey.  

 

F.  Our WRs are more than enough for any good QB to post a great season.  

 

G.  We have no premiere pass-rushers without Miller, who's not likely to ever return to the form he was in, with history, relating to age, not on his side.  

 

H.  Our coaching staff, the top part of it anyway, the decision-makers, are essentially now a transplanted unit from McD's time in Carolina.  That's also factual.  Whether some view that as a good thing or not, again, is in the eyes of the beholder.  This beholder sees a coaching staff that fell short against one of the worst QBs in the league that season in SB 50, and one that cost us an AFC Championship and quite possibly an NFL Championship, and that have otherwise lost 4 Divisional playoff games and 2 Wild Card playoff games, generally speaking to teams not as good.  

 

I.  Allen does way too much and "covers a multitude of sins" otherwise.  Hardly unique there.  

 

J.  Our designed running game from the RBs is underutilized.  Same there, hardly unique.  

 

K.  Our OL may be the best it's been in years.  

 

L.  I'm not expecting Kincaid as a rookie to shatter the rookie records, especially under Dorsey who's still in OJT mode.  

 

Other than guessing, like everyone else, who's going to be cut or the like, I'm not seeing which many of these are so unbearable to read or consider.  

 

Help me out.  I mean which are entirely not possible or false?  Otherwise, which of the many in that laundry list that are so hard to swallow did I miss?  Again, sorry that you're so upset about these.  Truly.  It's hardly my intention to piss anyone off.  

 

 

I agree with some of this.  I hope that better o-line play either confirms a lot of this (WRs, for example), or obviates it (Allen's load, for example). 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

Your call.  I'm sorry that my posts irritate you so much, really.  

 

Re: narratives, I think you've got it backwards.  I don't do narratives, I challenge them.  They're narratives because they're popular.   I'm not very big on "everyone says ..." kinda stuff, simply because "everyone says."  More stuff that's said league-wide every seaosn does not happen rather than happens, team and player(s) alike.  

 

Maybe wait until the end of the season to see whether or not they turn out to be true and therefore valid?  If they don't, then feel free to hammer me all you want on them.  I'd even encourage it and would probably get a good chuckle myeslf on them.  Until then, I always back up what my takes are, whether you and others like it or not, which I can do nothing about.  

 

Besides, it's just discussion.  If my posts irritate you so much, and I mean this sincerely, then why read 'em.  It's borderline stalking otherwise.  Gunnerbill arbitrarily "X's" every one of my posts that he seems to see.  LOL  I anticipate it when I see a notification from him.  There are posters that I won't read, I don't have them on ignore, but I simply skip over them.  I don't understand the seeming animus.  I always try to answer posts directed at me, which some consider to be bad form, but IMO it would be bad form to ignore them.  I deliberately go out of my way often to avoid getting into exchanges that I know are purely argumentative with no genuine exchange of ideas.  I don't always succeed, but I do my best.  

 

We all want the same thing, or most of us anyway, which is a Championship.  Although some have openly expressed simple contentment with winning seasons and playoff appearances without ever winning the big game, but that's fine.  I don't take issue with it if that's what they're satisfied with.  

 

Cheers!  

 

Go BILLS!!!  

 

 

 

I do not "X" every one of your posts. But you say a lot of unsubstantiated stuff and make a lot of claims that are just wrong. So when you do that I "X" them. 

 

[ChrisWatson#21]

The same mistake in sending four pass rushers against Mahomes in the 13 second debacle when in reality you want to drop all eleven back and invite him to run the game clock out by running it.  I still can’t believe they couldn’t figure that out🙄

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I do not "X" every one of your posts. But you say a lot of unsubstantiated stuff and make a lot of claims that are just wrong. So when you do that I "X" them. 

 

 

LOL, OK, I can think of one, recently, that you gave me something other than an X.  I was actually surprised.  LOL  

 

When someone X's just about everything that someone else posts, then it makes it's own statement.  

 

How about this, which of the points on that list are so outrageous that they match your description?  And why?  

 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by PBF81

[buffblue]

On 7/24/2023 at 7:42 AM, newcam2012 said:

I remember joking with my brother saying I would have rather have the Bills D in a third and short vs long

Can't tell you how many times I've felt the same way when watching our defense. However this is not limited to the McDermott regime. It's seemed like it's been that way my entire Bills fandom lol

[buffblue]

19 hours ago, Utah John said:

Edmunds was the glue that Frazier's defense depended on.  His size and speed took away a huge area of the defense, and that made the style of D the Bills played work.  But what Edmunds is NOT is an attacking, vicious, hitting, intuitive, tough defender.  

 

I don't think it was a coincidence that Edmunds and Frazier left at the same time.  Frazier's system was not going to work without Edmunds.  Very possibly, considering the return of White to full health, and Hyde, the Bills D could turn out to be better than ever with McD and a new guy as MLB.  If that new guy is an attacking, vicious, hitting, intuitive and tough defender.

Interesting theory. I would say the Bears performance on defense this year with Edmunds in the middle (and the Bills without him) will shed some light on your statement. But there will likely be shades of gray. I think Chicago is still going to be pretty bad on D, and am I not sold on Eberflus. Conversely, the Bills will likely fall in the statistical rankings in 2023, but how much weight can be attributed to the turnover at MLB? 

 

My inclination is to believe our scheme did not fully let Tremaine play to his natural strengths. Imo they saw a large, extremely athletic linebacker with a huge wingspan and effectively said "Just plant yourself in the middle of our zone and all will be well". And the thing is, it worked for the most part. Then again, when McD had Kuechly (who is a borderline HOFer) in Carolina, they deployed him in a much more aggressive manner despite lacking Edmund's physical gifts.

 

This year will go a long way towards resolving one of the board's eternal arguments...but I'm not sure it will be definitive. 

Edited July 25, 2023 by buffblue