PFF Top 50 Players for 2023 - Josh Allen at 12, Diggs at 24

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

Yeah, thanks!  

 

Allow me to ask, whom do you blame?  Because when I put the blame where it belongs, it seems to go over about as well as black person at a KKK rally.  

 

And how about Davis, who's outperformed Diggs in the playoffs?  What's your take there?   Yeah yeah, we all know, Davis wouldn't have done what he did if Diggs weren't on the team, so Diggs gets credit for Davis' catches.  Or something different?  

 

I'm curious whether you're consistent.  

 

Otherwise, since my comments were general in nature, how about the other three playoff losses, was Allen anything to blame for those, the '20 season KC loss, the '19 season Texans loss, or the Bengals loss this past season?   Or was he guilt-free there too?  

 

As to the topic of this thread, and in light of what you said, take away the two games of the '21 playoffs and to be more than fair, Allen's other 6 playoff games are mediocre tops!  

 

6 games otherwise, 8 TDs (1-1/4 TD/game for the math challenged), 6 TOs, and only one game with a rating better than average for those 6 games and an 85.0 rating for the 6 games aggregately.  He had more TDs in the two playoff games in '21 than he did in his other 6, demonstrating massive inconsistencey.  That's poor and for reference purposes, this past season would have ranked 26th in the league and in Derek Carr, Justin Fields, Mac Jones, and Russell Wilson category.  

 

Just sayin' 

 

And I'm one of Allen's biggest apologists and defenders.  

 

 

 

 

Sure you're one of Allen's biggest apologists & defenders!

 

IMO Allen was not to blame for any of the playoff losses - they were team losses.  Did Allen play his best games against Hou (2019), KC (2020) or the Bengals (2022)? No but he was hardly the cause for those losses. 

 

In 8 playoff games Allen has had 3 elite performances:  Indy (2020), NE (2021) & KC (2021).  Allen has had 3 solid performances: Balt (2020), KC (2020) & Mia (2022).  Allen has had 2 average performances against Hous & Cincy. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Billl]

13 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

If you asked a Chiefs fan who do they fear. You think any chance exists they’re saying us? 
 

Doesn’t that say enough?

If the Chiefs play well, I’d rather play Burrow.  If the Chiefs play poorly, I’d rather play Allen.  

 

Allen has the ability to take his game to such a high level that he can win a game against elite teams even when those teams play well.  Burrow can’t do that.  Allen also has the ability to lose a game they should win simply by being sloppy with the ball.  Burrow won’t do that.

[The Frankish Reich]

On 7/20/2023 at 5:01 PM, Airseven said:

 

This ranking is of the 50 best players. It's not ranking most valuable players to their team.

I'm not a PFF subscriber, but even the free summary shows that this list is weighted heavily on PFF's positional gradings. In other words, it stupidly ignores the fact that QB is overwhelmingly the most important position in football. 

The true test will never be run: in a total free agency free-for-all, starting from scratch (no one under contract) which players command the highest salary?

I'd guess: Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert (in some order) get the 4 biggest contracts. And that Hurts is somewhere in the Top 7 or so. Rodgers? Too old.

[PBF81]

30 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Sure you're one of Allen's biggest apologists & defenders!

 

IMO Allen was not to blame for any of the playoff losses - they were team losses.  Did Allen play his best games against Hou (2019), KC (2020) or the Bengals (2022)? No but he was hardly the cause for those losses. 

 

In 8 playoff games Allen has had 3 elite performances:  Indy (2020), NE (2021) & KC (2021).  Allen has had 3 solid performances: Balt (2020), KC (2020) & Mia (2022).  Allen has had 2 average performances against Hous & Cincy.

 

My take is that the difference between our team today and the same old from the 20-years drought is Allen.  

 

I think that says it all.  

 

And yes, I understand your mentality, it's alive and well here.  The losses are all team losses and have nothing to do with Allen or McD, but when we win it's them that are responsible.  Yeah, many of us fully get it.  LOL 

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

41 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

My take is that the difference between our team today and the same old from the 20-years drought is Allen.  

 

I think that says it all.  

 

And yes, I understand your mentality, it's alive and well here.  The losses are all team losses and have nothing to do with Allen or McD, but when we win it's them that are responsible.  Yeah, many of us fully get it.  LOL 

 

 

Imagine finding Bills homers at Two Bills Drive.  It's almost as shocking as finding Jets homers at GangGreen.

 

And it's a pretty big jump from my comment to "losses are all team losses and have nothing to do with Allen or McD".  Heck where did I even mention McD. I thought I was commenting on the Bills playoff loses and I maintain that Allen didn't lose a single playoff game.  He contributed by not playing as well as he could but was he the main factor in the loss?  No. 

 

 

[PBF81]

3 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Imagine finding Bills homers at Two Bills Drive.  It's almost as shocking as finding Jets homers at GangGreen.

 

And it's a pretty big jump from my comment to "losses are all team losses and have nothing to do with Allen or McD".  Heck where did I even mention McD. I thought I was commenting on the Bills playoff loses and I maintain that Allen didn't lose a single playoff game.  He contributed by not playing as well as he could but was he the main factor in the loss?  No. 

 

LOL, okay, well, when you say that Allen shared no blame for any of our playoff losses, isn't that essentially saying that, McD aside.  Short answer:  yes. 

 

Anyway, who cares.  Camp starts in a few days, all of this will be sorted out over the next month, and otherwise we're talking about some stupid poll where Burrow and Allen, two of the few premiere QBs in the league, are two spots apart in some ranking.  

 

If you want to analyze Allen's playoff performances, we can do that, but to suggest that his play in the playoffs has been either consistent or fault-free in losses is remiss.  Among Allen, Mahomes, and Burrow, the least consistent in the playoffs has been Allen, by a wide margin over Mahomes although only marginally over Burrow, nonetheless.  

 

He can take steps to changing that this season and prove that last season's playoffs were all an anomaly.   Right?  

 

 

[JPPT1974]

Allen and Diggs need to be higher but yeah the loss over to the Bengals last season kind of hurt their ranking.

[CincyBillsFan]

7 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

If you want to analyze Allen's playoff performances, we can do that, but to suggest that his play in the playoffs has been either consistent or fault-free in losses is remiss.  Among Allen, Mahomes, and Burrow, the least consistent in the playoffs has been Allen, by a wide margin over Mahomes although only marginally over Burrow, nonetheless. 

I did analyze Allen's performance in the playoffs and rank ordered them based on my opinion in a previous post you quoted:

 

In 8 playoff games Allen has had 3 elite performances:  Indy (2020), NE (2021) & KC (2021).  Allen has had 3 solid performances: Balt (2020), KC (2020) & Mia (2022).  Allen has had 2 average performances against Hous & Cincy. 

 

And for the record where have I ever said Allen's playoff performances were "fault free"? Or do you consider an average performance to be the same as saying it was fault free?

 

 

 

 

[BigDingus]

On 7/20/2023 at 5:55 PM, Airseven said:

 

Indeed. It makes sense that Allen would be outside the top 10 as the #4 ranked player at his position. The Allen/Hurts/Herbert debate is a good one. Mahomes and Burrow are on another level. Allen needs to cut down on the crushing mistakes...and reach a Super Bowl...to achieve elite QB status (as opposed to his current elite athlete status). 

 

Look at all those negative reactions to your post 🤣

 

"No, Josh doesn't need to cut down on the turnovers! It's great that he has nearly 40 in 2 years! He needs to keep leading the league in turnovers, especially the really inexplicable ones that aren't a result of pressure, great defense, or receiver screwing up!" 

 

Josh is awesome but I don't get why people are mad at you... Burrow has done more, doesn't make as many mistakes, and outplayed Josh in Buffalo last we saw them. He made a SB in year 2. He's simply done more. 

On 7/22/2023 at 1:33 PM, CincyBillsFan said:

Imagine finding Bills homers at Two Bills Drive.  It's almost as shocking as finding Jets homers at GangGreen.

 

And it's a pretty big jump from my comment to "losses are all team losses and have nothing to do with Allen or McD".  Heck where did I even mention McD. I thought I was commenting on the Bills playoff loses and I maintain that Allen didn't lose a single playoff game.  He contributed by not playing as well as he could but was he the main factor in the loss?  No. 

 

So basically what the post you're responding to said originally... it's always everyone else, not Allen. But when we win, it's Allen. 

 

All of the credit, none of the blame. Got it. 

[Chaos]

If there was an entire redraft of every player in the NFL, the first three players off the board (in alphabetical order) would be Allen, Burrows and Mahomes.  I am not sure what the PFF rankings are supposed to mean in this case. 

[CincyBillsFan]

14 hours ago, BigDingus said:

 

So basically what the post you're responding to said originally... it's always everyone else, not Allen. But when we win, it's Allen. 

 

All of the credit, none of the blame. Got it. 

No I was responding to the posters trashing of Allen's performance in the playoffs and there isn't a single playoff game in which you can credibly pin the loss on Allen.  Sure there were games where he didn't play up to his elite potential but that was not the primary reason for the loss.  Unless of course you believe that Allen must be elite in every game he plays in.

 

Go back and look at the Super Bowl years and see how many times Kelly was average yet the Bills won the game.  My and others point is that the Bills have not surrounded Allen with the talent they need to.

 

Oh and for the record as I look at the 11 losses (both regular and post season) over the last two seasons (2021 & 2022) there is only one of those losses I would put primarily on Allen playing badly - the loss to Jacksonville.  Show me where I'm wrong.  That's one loss in two seasons and 37 games.  You people are nuts to be criticizing Allen on this.

 

 

 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

13 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

No I was responding to the posters trashing of Allen's performance in the playoffs and there isn't a single playoff game in which you can credibly pin the loss on Allen.  Sure there were games where he didn't play up to his elite potential but that was not the primary reason for the loss.  Unless of course you believe that Allen must be elite in every game he plays in.

 

Go back and look at the Super Bowl years and see how many times Kelly was average yet the Bills won the game.  My and others point is that the Bills have not surrounded Allen with the talent they need to.

 

Oh and for the record as I look at the 11 losses (both regular and post season) over the last two seasons (2021 & 2022) there is only one of those losses I would put primarily on Allen playing badly - the loss to Jacksonville.  Show me where I'm wrong.  That's one loss in two seasons and 37 games.  You people are nuts to be criticizing Allen on this.

 

 

 

 

The job McB have done to put a top 10 OL in front of Josh since 2018 has been lazy and embarrassing. It took until April of 23 for them to finally Amp up the OL.  But once the dust settles, it's still not anywhere near a top 10 or 15 OL.  And so many fans wonder why he has to take so many risks.  He's flushed immediately and running for his life. Even our best olineman (Dawkins) gave up 3 sacks and 20 pressures last year.  Put JA behind the Philly OL and he wins a SB instantly. 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Pffffffftt off-season ranking click bait.
 

Means nothing. NOTHING!

[SCBills]

Josh Allen is the #2 player in the NFL, and the only one with the ability to overtake Mahomes for #1. 
 

Let people sleep on him because he’s been on a less talented offense than Mahomes/Burrow, and played half a season with a torn UCL. 

 

Through no fault of his own, 13 seconds has been a dagger to his reputation amongst the elite thus far. 

[mjd1001]

6 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Josh Allen is the #2 player in the NFL, and the only one with the ability to overtake Mahomes for #1. 
 

Let people sleep on him because he’s been on a less talented offense than Mahomes/Burrow, and played half a season with a torn UCL. 

 

Through no fault of his own, 13 seconds has been a dagger to his reputation amongst the elite thus far. 

I think a case can be made for Allen anywhere from 1-5.  Last year he didn't perform that way but that was largely because of his injury.

 

In the year and a half before he got hurt last year, he was as dominant game-to-game as any player in the league, including Mahomes.

 

The injury happened, so take that into account if you want to. If he is 100% back to his un-injured self this year, I expect him to be a candidate for League MVP again (pretty much meaning he's a top 5 player).

[Big Blitz]

On 7/20/2023 at 6:37 PM, BananaB said:

His turnovers pushed him outside the top 10

 

So Goff is in the top 10 and number 2 QB?

[julian]

On 7/22/2023 at 10:57 AM, PBF81 said:

 

Yeah, thanks!  

 

Allow me to ask, whom do you blame?  Because when I put the blame where it belongs, it seems to go over about as well as black person at a KKK rally.  

 

And how about Davis, who's outperformed Diggs in the playoffs?  What's your take there?   Yeah yeah, we all know, Davis wouldn't have done what he did if Diggs weren't on the team, so Diggs gets credit for Davis' catches.  Or something different?  

 

I'm curious whether you're consistent.  

 

Otherwise, since my comments were general in nature, how about the other three playoff losses, was Allen anything to blame for those, the '20 season KC loss, the '19 season Texans loss, or the Bengals loss this past season?   Or was he guilt-free there too?  

 

As to the topic of this thread, and in light of what you said, take away the two games of the '21 playoffs and to be more than fair, Allen's other 6 playoff games are mediocre tops!  

 

6 games otherwise, 8 TDs (1-1/4 TD/game for the math challenged), 6 TOs, and only one game with a rating better than average for those 6 games and an 85.0 rating for the 6 games aggregately.  He had more TDs in the two playoff games in '21 than he did in his other 6, demonstrating massive inconsistencey.  That's poor and for reference purposes, this past season would have ranked 26th in the league and in Derek Carr, Justin Fields, Mac Jones, and Russell Wilson category.  

 

Just sayin' 

 

And I'm one of Allen's biggest apologists and defenders.  

 

 

 

 

The old “ if you take away these performances you then have these conclusions “ lol

 

take away Allen’s last 3 seasons scoring more TDs than any other player league wide and he’d be just a guy.

 

[BeavercreekBillsFan]

13 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

The job McB have done to put a top 10 OL in front of Josh since 2018 has been lazy and embarrassing. It took until April of 23 for them to finally Amp up the OL.  But once the dust settles, it's still not anywhere near a top 10 or 15 OL.  And so many fans wonder why he has to take so many risks.  He's flushed immediately and running for his life. Even our best olineman (Dawkins) gave up 3 sacks and 20 pressures last year.  Put JA behind the Philly OL and he wins a SB instantly. 

 

This. People get tired of hearing it but our OL SUCKS. I’m throwing Dawkins into that as well since he’s pretty average as well at best. He gets beat all the time too. If josh has time and weapons (all the things that Mahomes, hurts and burrow have in spades) then no telling how good we could be. Instead it’s josh having to escape with his life immediately every play and having to pass to JAGs since Diggs is being taken out of the game by the other team. This is what I’m always going to remember about this period of the Bills. What could’ve been if they’d given josh what he needed. 
 

As far as the chiefs and who they fear more, it’s definitely the bengals. Chiefs know they can always score enough on us since we play such a vanilla D and let them do what they want. Bengals adjust every game to Mahomes and mix things up to limit him. Josh is better than Burrow but the bengals D is scarier to play against than ours due to their ability and willingness to make adjustments.