Does a running QB make the run game from the backs less effective?

[Buffalo716]

36 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Well, that, but the Jimmies and the Joes have to suffice to execute those x's and o's

You need the hogs to do that… and I think we are getting there

 

its a tough situation but the bills can have a deadly attack if the line can push the line of scrimmage… It will only make Joshs running and passing ability more deadly

[HoofHearted]

On 7/14/2023 at 11:04 AM, Beck Water said:

I'm breaking this out from the Cowherd thread because I'm hoping to attract some answers from some knowledgeable folks here.  Imma tag a few but anyone who fancies himself savvy about NFL run game please speak up, I'm sure I've forgotten some knowledgeable folks I'd love to hear from (either that or I can't figure out how to spell your screen name and tag ya)  @Buffalo716 @HoofHearted

So in the Cowherd interview of Dion Dawkins, Cowherd goes on at length with his opinion that a running QB makes the conventional run game less effective.  He cites Tennessee with Henry and the 49ers with McCaffrey.  Yes, those teams have effective running games because they have great backs, great run-blocking OLs,and a QB who throws "enough". 

But while Lamar Jackson had the most yards on the Ravens, Dobbins, Drake and Edwards had 1435 yds - pretty effective.  Jalen Hurts is a running QB, but Miles Sanders rushed for 1269 yds, pretty effective.

 

I believe someone posted a stat that the Bills are lowest in rush attempts by an RB.  I think the problem is they just don't try to run the ball enough, or effectively enough when they do try.  But it has nothing to do with Josh extending the play and trying to make shinola from ***** on a pass play by scrambling. 

I don't see the logic there.

 

What are your thoughts?  Does a running QB and improvisation make the conventional run game less effective? 

What Cowherd has to say:
https://youtu.be/djGAQi46d68?t=1014

16:50 in if the above doesn't take you there

 

 

 

His conclusion is correct, but his reasoning for getting there is nonsensical. Teams with QBs who can run generally don’t have their RBs getting 28 carries a game because they don’t have to. You’re at a numerical advantage on the field when your QB is a threat with his legs. A defense either has to commit an extra defender to the box or just live with the fact that one of their defenders will be slow to fit because they are being read. The off script stuff has nothing to do with the run game whatsoever.

QB run game can almost guarantee you a 1 on 1 with your QB on a lesser athlete so why wouldn’t teams take that matchup more often than not? Only reason not to do it 100% of the time is because a defense will eventually adjust and start sending double edge pressure where they’d get a 2v1 on your QB, but then of course it’s pulling a defender either out of the box or coverage. And the other reason is to not get the crap beat out of your QB every play.

 

The idea that QB run game lessens the effect of true RB run game is just moronic. If anything it should improve it because of how defenses have to play the QB run threat. Bills haven’t had a run game because they’re soft at the LoS, not because Josh runs.

[BillsShredder83]

The only thing that comes to mind as being valid here to me, is the amount of shotgun we run. 

 

I think Josh being back there helps him see a lot more whether he's running or passing, but it doesn't do our run game any favors, making our RBs take their carries out of a draw type of carry.

 

I don't know this is what cowherd is talking about though

[Big Turk]

James Cook would have led all RBs in YPC if he had enough carries to qualify last year. Needed 11 more at the same 5.7 average he had to qualify. So I'd say no.

 

Singletary averaged 5.1, 4.4, 4.6, and 4.6 in his 4 years, so again...no. At times there was some frustration with how they called the runs and what formations they ran out of but overall it was effective when they wanted to run it.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Big Turk

[Eastport bills]

A running QB who has designed runs like Cam, Lamar or Kyler, will invariably get hurt and leave a void in the team’s offense. The fact that a QB runs shouldn’t affect the production of the rbs if the O-line is competent.

[Beck Water]

On 7/15/2023 at 12:03 PM, HoofHearted said:

His conclusion is correct, but his reasoning for getting there is nonsensical. Teams with QBs who can run generally don’t have their RBs getting 28 carries a game because they don’t have to. You’re at a numerical advantage on the field when your QB is a threat with his legs. A defense either has to commit an extra defender to the box or just live with the fact that one of their defenders will be slow to fit because they are being read. The off script stuff has nothing to do with the run game whatsoever.

QB run game can almost guarantee you a 1 on 1 with your QB on a lesser athlete so why wouldn’t teams take that matchup more often than not? Only reason not to do it 100% of the time is because a defense will eventually adjust and start sending double edge pressure where they’d get a 2v1 on your QB, but then of course it’s pulling a defender either out of the box or coverage. And the other reason is to not get the crap beat out of your QB every play.

 

The idea that QB run game lessens the effect of true RB run game is just moronic. If anything it should improve it because of how defenses have to play the QB run threat. Bills haven’t had a run game because they’re soft at the LoS, not because Josh runs.

 

That's about it, I think.

 

That, plus I felt that even by his 3rd and 4th year here, Daboll really hadn't managed to integrate the run game and the pass game very effectively.  I'm not football astute enough to have the descriptors for what I saw, but that was my sense.  I actually felt we were a bit more situationally appropriate in run play calling last year, but the line was worse at run blocking so it didn't get us anything.

 

Maybe I'm off base.  I always kind of felt Daboll called run plays because McDermott pinned him on the meeting room floor and hissed in his ear "you will call run plays or I will finish you".

 

On 7/15/2023 at 12:29 PM, BillsShredder83 said:

The only thing that comes to mind as being valid here to me, is the amount of shotgun we run. 

 

I think Josh being back there helps him see a lot more whether he's running or passing, but it doesn't do our run game any favors, making our RBs take their carries out of a draw type of carry.

 

I don't know this is what cowherd is talking about though

 

That's a good question - does the amount of snaps from shotgun make the run game less effective for us? 

747 snaps from shotgun: 238 rush, 480 pass (32% rush)

301 snaps under center:  197 rush 65 pass (65% rush)

That's actually 55% of our rushing snaps from shotgun. On paper, the run game from shotgun was more effective (6.2 ypc vs 4.0 ypc) but I have a hunch that might be because a lot of the run plays from shotgun were either designed runs for Josh or scrambles by Josh - on a quick look, couldn't find stats for that.

 

I could be off base, but in theory, I think it's entirely possible to craft a solid RB run game from shotgun.  Seems like a couple of the top rushing teams last season where the QB isn't the best RB (Falcons, Browns, 49ers) are still playing a lot of their snaps from shotgun - maybe not 70% like the Bills, but 60%-ish.

I think the Bills OL and backs may not have had the skill set to pull that off.   Not sure.

 

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Beck Water

[Buffalo Super Fan]

He makes zero sense like a lot of national sports media. Buffalo Bills QB Josh Allen would be even better with OJ Simpson, Joe Cribbs or Thurman Thomas. I think about what wide receiver Andre Reed could do with a QB like Josh Allen is scary. Buffalo Super Fan Andre Reed and Thurman Thomas had Jim Kelly. Yes they did but as much of a fan as I am of Jim Kelly he was a try hard QB he was very limited, very stiff athletically. Jim Kelly had to really work compared to a Miami Dolphins Dan Marino passing or a Denver Broncos John Elway and San Francisco 49ers Steve Young running he wasn’t the greatest athlete. To me Jim Kelly was like Cincinnati Reds Pete Rose in baseball without the championships for Jim Kelly that Pete Rose won unfortunately for us Bills fans with Jim Kelly. Jim Kelly made up for his shortcomings compared to the other three QB’s of his era by his never say give up bulldog mentality just like Cincinnati Reds Pete Rose. Josh Allen is like a better athletic combination of the three Dan Marino throwing and John Elway and Steve Young running. But if Josh Allen had a slot receiver in Andre Reed and a running back like Thurman Thomas even Bills head coach Sean McDermott being average couldn’t screw that up from winning a Super Bowl for the Buffalo Bills in my opinion. Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

[mead107]

NO

 

[Bill from NYC]

On 7/14/2023 at 12:04 PM, Beck Water said:

I'm breaking this out from the Cowherd thread because I'm hoping to attract some answers from some knowledgeable folks here.  Imma tag a few but anyone who fancies himself savvy about NFL run game please speak up, I'm sure I've forgotten some knowledgeable folks I'd love to hear from (either that or I can't figure out how to spell your screen name and tag ya)  @Buffalo716 @HoofHearted
 

Do you suspect that @BADOLBILZ might have a pertinent response  to your question? I tagged him just in case. 

[Don Otreply]

Answer me this, Will a talking heads show suffer when silly azs scenarios are the current topic? 

[BigAl2526]

Maybe less productive, but not less effective.  Less productive because it might mean fewer touches for running backs.  As effective because I think yards per carry can be as good or better than an offense with a "pocket" QB.

[Airseven]

Depends on whether the OC is capable.