4 cut candidates on Bills’ roster ahead of NFL training camp

[947]

2 hours ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

I'm not sure how you can say that based off of a couple hundred snaps.  I'll give him an INC for the miami game since we were a cobbled together mess on the offensive line.  Then you have Detroit who had among the worst defenses in the league, and Chicago... who also had among the worst defenses in the league.  

 

Bates wasn't even a very good RG last year, and may be a backup if he doesn't win a job against a rookie.  

I'm of the opinion that Bates is a better Center than OG. I agree he'll likely be a backup at Guard this year, but I think he's our Center in 2024 & I'm OK with that.

[John from Riverside]

First practice is July 26 we’re getting there

[PrimeTime101]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

It's always a treat when a poster puts something out there and then tells others to provide the data to prove his point.

 

Strong work.  

 

But here are the numbers the past 5 seasons:  61.4, 63.4, 65.8, 66.3, 70.3.  Clearly, his play has shown steady decline over this period--it's not a sudden drop in one season because of bad Guard play in 2022.  So your argument is nonsense.  

 

That's why you would post his PFF grades.

And if you think PFF numbers on one person tells everything of why he is putting up those numbers then you are clueless. You think Guard play does not effect the Center play then I do not know what to tell you. This is common Football Knowledge man. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by PrimeTime101

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, PrimeTime101 said:

And if you think PFF numbers on one person tells everything of why he is putting up those numbers then you are clueless. You think Guard play does not effect the Center play then I do not know what to tell you. This is common Football Knowledge man. 

 

I'm sure Guard play will factor into his ratings.  Unfortunately, you singled out last season as some sort of aberration for Morse and blamed it on the G's last year.  But clearly, his PFF numbers (which you brought to this discussion. to back your point) show a guy an aging lineman is slow steady decline, no matter who has been on either side of him over a 5 year period.

 

So your argument falls flat for obvious reasons and with the data source you have cited.  

[John from Riverside]

Shorter is an extremely interesting player to me
 

And I don’t think we’re going to see this year. Just how good he can be the log jam in front of him is just too high, but he does play special teams, which will keep him on the roster.

 

All the physical tools are there

[DCofNC]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I have been a big fan of Latavius through his career. But at this stage he is a not a #1 back. He is a goalline and short yardage only player. 

 

I don't love the Cook pick either but he has to get a lot of the ball. He will be more productive with it at this stage of his career than Murray.

 

 

Ekeler is a finesse back too.

I disagree with everything outside of not loving the Cook pick.  Murray has been very good for a long time and does not have a ton of miles on him, if I had to take one back to get the touches, I’ll take the guy who can run like a real back.  Ekeler is about as much finesse as CMC, he’s “small”, but the guy has tree trunks and powers through a lot of contact.  There’s a reason he lead the league in TDs most of the year.  It’s not because the Chargers have a substantially better OC than the Bills. He’s a lot closer to Marshall Faulk than Jerome Bettis, so I get what you are saying, but he’s really the definition of an every down back. 

[DCofNC]

52 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Shorter is an extremely interesting player to me
 

And I don’t think we’re going to see this year. Just how good he can be the log jam in front of him is just too high, but he does play special teams, which will keep him on the roster.

 

All the physical tools are there

Shorter was a late round pick for a reason.   The guy was a higher rated prospect than Jamar Chase out of high-school, he sucked in college.  He transferred because he blamed the coaches, needed to “be used properly” and still was a nobody at Florida.   The chances of a guy like that magically realizing he has to work at the craft and becoming something are next to nothing.  He’s a physical specimen, but we’ve seen plenty of them end up out of the league in a big hurry.  I expect the same for him.  I also hope he reads this and decides to prove some random fan wrong and becomes MegaTron, I figure that’s as likely as me hitting the lotto I don’t play.

[John from Riverside]

15 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

Shorter was a late round pick for a reason.   The guy was a higher rated prospect than Jamar Chase out of high-school, he sucked in college.  He transferred because he blamed the coaches, needed to “be used properly” and still was a nobody at Florida.   The chances of a guy like that magically realizing he has to work at the craft and becoming something are next to nothing.  He’s a physical specimen, but we’ve seen plenty of them end up out of the league in a big hurry.  I expect the same for him.  I also hope he reads this and decides to prove some random fan wrong and becomes MegaTron, I figure that’s as likely as me hitting the lotto I don’t play.

We need to see what the problems are
 

It’s not hands because he catches everything around him

 

It’s not speed because he’s plenty fast

 

He has all the physical attributes

 

Sometimes guys click in the pros that don’t click in college. That’s how you find your gems

 

I just like that it’s not like we have to depend on him get his feet wet in special teams and lead him go from there

[Beck Water]

On 7/10/2023 at 10:04 AM, PrimeTime101 said:

You would think these guys would be talking with people with a little more insight to what is going on then first appearances and pff.  

 

thoughts? 

 

Who do you mean by "these guys"?  The author of this piece?  I think he's just a freelance writer grinding out words.  Here's his bio:

 

Enzo Flojo

Enzo Flojo is an Associate Editor at ClutchPoints and a columnist for Asian basketball at FIBA. He brings a dynamic spirit and background, having expertise that spans writing, analytics, coaching, and broadcasting. He is also currently an Assistant Coach on Scouting & Analytics for the Philippine national youth basketball team.

 

https://clutchpoints.com/author/enzoflojo

 

Why do you think an articles written by an Asian basketball scout/coach reflects insider info?

 

I'd be happy to ask Karch Kiraly's opinion on volleyball or beating colon cancer - he's got the inside line on both - but not on American football

If I want to know about basketball in Asian countries sounds like Mr Flojo might be my guy.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Beck Water

[DJB]

11 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Dawkins is our best lineman. But Morse is a solid center. Good in pass pro, less so in run blocking. I would not support cutting him. 

Dawkins needs to clean a lot of things up. He was not his usual standard last year

 

Hopefully he bounces back 

[Beck Water]

11 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Dawkins is our best lineman. But Morse is a solid center. Good in pass pro, less so in run blocking. I would not support cutting him. 

 

Right On.  You don't improve an OL by cutting one of the best players on it.

 

Cover1 has done a piece before pointing out that Morse is an excellent run blocker when used correctly, with video that makes their case pretty well IMHO.  What he is not, is a run blocking mauler.  But he's quick for a big guy and used in space he's effective in the run game.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, DCofNC said:

Shorter was a late round pick for a reason.   The guy was a higher rated prospect than Jamar Chase out of high-school, he sucked in college.  He transferred because he blamed the coaches, needed to “be used properly” and still was a nobody at Florida.   The chances of a guy like that magically realizing he has to work at the craft and becoming something are next to nothing.  He’s a physical specimen, but we’ve seen plenty of them end up out of the league in a big hurry.  I expect the same for him.  I also hope he reads this and decides to prove some random fan wrong and becomes MegaTron, I figure that’s as likely as me hitting the lotto I don’t play.

 

I understand your POV, but there's another viewpoint on Shorter.

 

It's true that he was a top prospect coming out of HS.  He lost his freshman year at Penn State to injury, and struggled when he did play.  He dropped a lot of balls.  Was that due to injuries?  Did the coaches lose faith in him and he wasn't given a fair shake after losing the "best ability is availability" battle?

 

But with the Gators in 2021 and 2022, he is said to have had 1 drop on 114 targets and to have been a reliable deep threat.  He had a hammy that limited him his Sr year.

 

Sure, he was a 5th round pick for a reason, and he needs to improve some aspects of his game - his release against press man is one take.
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/justin-shorter/32005348-4f65-1252-2fb4-216da3af656d

 

But he may have as much potential as former late round pick Isaiah Hodgins and ideally could become a replacement for Gabe Davis on those deep and deep intermediate routes, IF (and sure, it's an if) he applies himself to his craft.  I see him as a bit of a long shot to make the team, but a possibility to land on practice squad.

 

You kind of make it sound as though he showed nothing in college and I think he showed something, especially his Jr year.  To me, can he stay healthy is the issue.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/justin-shorter-1.html

 

 

[BringBackFergy]

32 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I understand your POV, but there's another viewpoint on Shorter.

 

It's true that he was a top prospect coming out of HS.  He lost his freshman year at Penn State to injury, and struggled when he did play.  He dropped a lot of balls.  Was that due to injuries?  Did the coaches lose faith in him and he wasn't given a fair shake after losing the "best ability is availability" battle?

 

But with the Gators in 2021 and 2022, he is said to have had 1 drop on 114 targets and to have been a reliable deep threat.  He had a hammy that limited him his Sr year.

 

Sure, he was a 5th round pick for a reason, and he needs to improve some aspects of his game - his release against press man is one take.
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/justin-shorter/32005348-4f65-1252-2fb4-216da3af656d

 

But he may have as much potential as former late round pick Isaiah Hodgins and ideally could become a replacement for Gabe Davis on those deep and deep intermediate routes, IF (and sure, it's an if) he applies himself to his craft.  I see him as a bit of a long shot to make the team, but a possibility to land on practice squad.

 

You kind of make it sound as though he showed nothing in college and I think he showed something, especially his Jr year.  To me, can he stay healthy is the issue.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/justin-shorter-1.html

 

 

Just let people express their opinion. It may not be correct in your world view, but it’s an opinion that may be shared by others. No need to argue every damn thread. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by BringBackFergy

[DrDawkinstein]

We can't cut Mitch Morse.

 

We SHOULD be cutting Mitch Morse, and we SHOULD be letting Creed Humphrey step into the spot.

 

But we can't cut Mitch Morse.

[JoPoy88]

5 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

First practice is July 26 we’re getting there

thank christ

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, DJB said:

Dawkins needs to clean a lot of things up. He was not his usual standard last year

 

Hopefully he bounces back 

 

He struggled down the stretch, for sure. Over the season he was still our best lineman.

[oldmanfan]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He struggled down the stretch, for sure. Over the season he was still our best lineman.

I wonder if Dawkins was dealing with long Covid issues last year.

[Beck Water]

15 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

Just let people express their opinion. It may not be correct in your world view, but it’s an opinion that may be shared by others. No need to argue every damn thread. 

 

Whisky Tango Foxtrot?  How very "Meta" of you, Fergy.

 

1) "Letting people express their opinion" is governed by them having an account here and making a post. 

2) Me having an opinion and expressing it in return doesn't stop them from expressing their opinion here in any way that I can see

3) Last time I looked, one person expressing a football opinion and another person disagreeing and politely responding with their different football opinion, is literally the purpose of this board

4) Last time I looked, there was no limit on the number of threads people can post in or the number of different opinions on different topics they can express - just on repetitively repeating that same opinion again and again and again (campaigning or crusading).  That's not what's going down here.

 

If you have a personal problem with how often, where , or what I post, I believe there's a simple solution provided by the board software.

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

20 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

And if you think PFF numbers on one person tells everything of why he is putting up those numbers then you are clueless. You think Guard play does not effect the Center play then I do not know what to tell you. This is common Football Knowledge man. 

 

I'll give you some data, or at least a good example to back up your point

2014.  Eric Wood, playing C between Kraig Urbik and Erik Pears (an acceptable RT but a sucky RG).  I think he was rated near the bottom of the league by PFF.  He said later, he thought he might even be cut.

2015.  Eric Wood, playing C between Ritchie Incognito and John Miller (who Bills fans disliked but is actually capable in the right system - still in the league).  Now all of a sudden he's playing great.  Pro bowl when it meant a bit more.  Rated well by PFF.

 

Yeah, for a C, the play of the guys on either side of him matters a lot.  And the need of the guys to work together/difficulty of non-expert footbball observers to decode who had what blocking assignment, is one of the reasons why PFF OL grades are to be taken with the saltiest grain of salt.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Beck Water

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

15 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I'll give you some data, or at least a good example to back up your point

2014.  Eric Wood, playing C between Kraig Urbik and Erik Pears (an acceptable RT but a sucky RG).  I think he was rated near the bottom of the league by PFF.  He said later, he thought he might even be cut.

2015.  Eric Wood, playing C between Ritchie Incognito and John Miller (who Bills fans disliked but is actually capable in the right system - still in the league).  Now all of a sudden he's playing great.  Pro bowl when it meant a bit more.  Rated well by PFF.

 

Yeah, for a C, the play of the guys on either side of him matters a lot.  And the need of the guys to work together/difficulty of non-expert footbball observers to decode who had what blocking assignment, is one of the reasons why PFF OL grades are to be taken with the saltiest grain of salt.

 

I think linemen in general have said that the PFF values for them aren't really useful as you don't know assignments.  If the LG is supposed to pick up the stunt, and instead doubles the outside, the center looks like he can't block or obtain leverage - when in reality its just a bad rep by the unit.