4 cut candidates on Bills’ roster ahead of NFL training camp

[DCofNC]

20 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I have never thought Latavius Murray would make the 53. I still don't.

I think you forget, there is no primary back on this team if Harris goes down and he has a history of it.  Murray, though not spectacular, becomes the #1 guy if Harris isn’t playing.  He’s almost a lock to make the team.  Cook is not going to be the lead back, he’s a 3rd down/receiving back.  They need somebody to hammer the ball in at the goal line, besides Josh and it’s arguable the best player on the team for that is Murray.  Hynes is the bubble guy, he has to hold on to his return job to make the game day roster.

[NewEra]

10 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

Do you have a point man? I mean... to answer your question, I would say the quality was the same depending on who played. Saffold was a mess and got beat often when he started. It just depended who was on the field but I am sure your point is that if the quality was the same and Morse got worse why would we blame the guards. And to the answer to that was poor quality starters depending on the week of the season. 

 

The degression of the line had much to do with when Saffold was starting and if you cant agree with me on that, then these numbers do not lie. BASE PFF for Saffold last year? 43.7 overall, 10 penalties (6th in the league)

 

You have a guy like that starting next to your Center, it most certainly does effect the Centers ability to do his job. 

.Not taking the double teams properly against 1 tech

.Not sliding to one side or another to support as he should.

the list could go on. 

 

And for people that think Bates was good or even average on the other side? His base pff was 61.8. Obviously better then Saffold but nothing great right?  And speaking of OLINE Men on the decline? Bates was 67.5 in 2020 and went down to 61.8 and if that is not enough for you? Dawkins went from a 78.1 in 2020 to a 73.5 in 22. Guys around you matter when it comes to the Lines. 

 

I do not know how else to answer your vague questions than this.  

I can’t read his posts anymore but I’d venture to say that his only point is to get under your skin.  

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

I think you forget, there is no primary back on this team if Harris goes down and he has a history of it.  Murray, though not spectacular, becomes the #1 guy if Harris isn’t playing.  He’s almost a lock to make the team.  Cook is not going to be the lead back, he’s a 3rd down/receiving back.  They need somebody to hammer the ball in at the goal line, besides Josh and it’s arguable the best player on the team for that is Murray.  Hynes is the bubble guy, he has to hold on to his return job to make the game day roster.

 

Murray at this stage isn't a lead back either. He can be a goalline and shot yardage back, sure, but you can elevate him from the PS if that's what you need. I'd rather give Cook the ball 12-14 times than Murray. 

[The Frankish Reich]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Murray at this stage isn't a lead back either. He can be a goalline and shot yardage back, sure, but you can elevate him from the PS if that's what you need. I'd rather give Cook the ball 12-14 times than Murray. 

Right. If Murray is getting regular work, then something (injury, Cook not stepping up, etc.) has gone wrong.

Having said that, in a sea of "everything's gone wrong" last year in Denver, Murray stood out as a steady, productive back.

[BillsFan130]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Only $10m dead for Tre after this year. Designated as post June and split in two that is very affordable. If he doesn't look good this year he is done after the season. 

 

No way they are cutting AJE. He had his best season last year, actually post Von was our most effective rusher and is still cheap as chips on the final year of his rookie deal. Groot, Von, Floyd and AJE are nailed on as our top 4 edge guys IMO. 

I’m not sure where you’re getting that?

 

I am seeing 6.5 if they cut him after this year for 2024 and 12.5 for 2025.

 

So about 19 mil in dead cap. Unless I’m not understanding it correctly 

 

https://overthecap.com/player/tredavious-white/5611

[GunnerBill]

10 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

I’m not sure where you’re getting that?

 

I am seeing 6.5 if they cut him after this year for 2024 and 12.5 for 2025.

 

So about 19 mil in dead cap. Unless I’m not understanding it correctly 

 

https://overthecap.com/player/tredavious-white/5611

 

Dead money is the left of the two columns in red - it's $10.3m is they cut him in 2024 (and that is cumulative of the $4m for 2025). $6.5m is the cap saving in 2024. $12.5m is the cap saving in 2025. 

 

 

 

[BillsFan130]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Dead money is the left of the two columns in red - it's $10.3m is they cut him in 2024 (and that is cumulative of the $4m for 2025). $6.5m is the cap saving in 2024. $12.5m is the cap saving in 2025. 

 

 

 

Ahh ya read that wrong. So dead would be about 10 in 2024 and just over 4 in 2025 by the looks of it.

 

If they only save 6 mil after this year, I can’t see them cutting him though unless he’s truly awful.

 

Hes realistically got 2 years left I think as 2025 looks like a better opportunity to move on.

[GunnerBill]

24 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Ahh ya read that wrong. So dead would be about 10 in 2024 and just over 4 in 2025 by the looks of it.

 

If they only save 6 mil after this year, I can’t see them cutting him though unless he’s truly awful.

 

Hes realistically got 2 years left I think as 2025 looks like a better opportunity to move on.

 

6mil in savings will be one of our bigger individual save numbers. If he plays like he did after his return last year he is an easy cut. If he gets back to form they will keep him. 

[BillsFan130]

36 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

6mil in savings will be one of our bigger individual save numbers. If he plays like he did after his return last year he is an easy cut. If he gets back to form they will keep him. 

Yes but given the deap cap number and them needing to replace tre white with that 6 mil for a veteran corner (unless they roll with Benford and Elam but I can’t see that) you’re really not looking at a ton of savings 

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

accept if you read what I said, i did that already. 

 

13 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

Sir i do not have pff any more. i believe his base was in low to mid 60's but you know who his guards were by him and how bad they were....

 

 

Was looking for Morse's numbers by year.  but nevermind.  It's all the Guards' fault.....

[Dunkirk Donski]

after reading recent posts on TSW I was surprised Josh wasnt mentioned...

[Paup 1995MVP]

On 7/10/2023 at 11:58 AM, BuffaloBillyG said:

Agree, Marlowe is the only one that makes total sense. 

 

With Hines restructure and his return ability it makes more sense to keep him and his value may increase if Cook misses any time with injury.

 

Murray doesn't make sense as a cut candidate for what they would save by it. I have said in the past that there may be a path where he does not start on the 53 man roster but is placed on the practice squad to start the year. This keeps him available in case Harris misses time and for him, keeps him local where he wants to be to set up his post playing career. It would be a win/win for player and team and it would not shock me if this was discussed prior to his signing here.

 

Morse is the tricky one. The price tag is rather high and his concussion history is an issue. Yes, the Bills would save a huge amount with a cut. However, they had better be darn sure that Bates, Edwards or whoever they slot in there isn't a downgrade. They spend money to bring in some FA (potential) upgrades and invested hight draft capital (2nd rounder) for another to upgrade the IOL. I don't see them willing to possibly throw that into disarray by moving on from the guy that has been the most consistent OL we have had.

Morse Murray and Hines are all good NFL players.  You don't cut good players.  You find a way to keep them.

 

I like Morse more then a lot of people I guess.  He is tough, a leader and an above average Center.  If he can keep playing at a reasonably high level, I would extend him for another couple more years so he can finish his career as a Bill.  No reason he can't play til he is 34 or 35.  The guy isn't an All Pro.  But he is super solid.  

[PrimeTime101]

50 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

 

Was looking for Morse's numbers by year.  but nevermind.  It's all the Guards' fault.....

how about stop being LAZY and look it up yourself? I told you the numbers he regressed between 2020-22. You really need that number so bad? look it up man. The number is between 20-22. Use your imagination. Unless you want to talk about why it is not the guards fault I am all ears. I think others are right though. just trying to get under my skin. have a nice day!

 

you never argued one point other than wanting one number. nice try! Guess this is not a team sport where it could not be possible where one player vastly effects another huh? 

3 hours ago, NewEra said:

I can’t read his posts anymore but I’d venture to say that his only point is to get under your skin.  

he obviously thinks guard play does not have an ill effect on centers. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, PrimeTime101 said:

how about stop being LAZY and look it up yourself? I told you the numbers he regressed between 2020-22. You really need that number so bad? look it up man. The number is between 20-22. Use your imagination. Unless you want to talk about why it is not the guards fault I am all ears. I think others are right though. just trying to get under my skin. have a nice day!

 

you never argued one point other than wanting one number. nice try! Guess this is not a team sport where it could not be possible where one player vastly effects another huh? 

he obviously thinks guard play does not have an ill effect on centers. 

 

 

It's always a treat when a poster puts something out there and then tells others to provide the data to prove his point.

 

Strong work.  

 

But here are the numbers the past 5 seasons:  61.4, 63.4, 65.8, 66.3, 70.3.  Clearly, his play has shown steady decline over this period--it's not a sudden drop in one season because of bad Guard play in 2022.  So your argument is nonsense.  

 

That's why you would post his PFF grades.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Mr. WEO

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

21 hours ago, 947 said:

I think Bates is little to no drop off from Morse, and probably a better run-blocker. The problem we had with Bates playing Center was that forced us to have 2 awful OGs on the field instead of just 1 in Saffold.

 

Now that we've added 3 OGs who are all upgrades, we'll be in a solid position if Bates plays Center. And let's face it, Morse is more likely to miss some time this season than play all 17 games.

 

I'm not sure how you can say that based off of a couple hundred snaps.  I'll give him an INC for the miami game since we were a cobbled together mess on the offensive line.  Then you have Detroit who had among the worst defenses in the league, and Chicago... who also had among the worst defenses in the league.  

 

Bates wasn't even a very good RG last year, and may be a backup if he doesn't win a job against a rookie.  

[DCofNC]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Murray at this stage isn't a lead back either. He can be a goalline and shot yardage back, sure, but you can elevate him from the PS if that's what you need. I'd rather give Cook the ball 12-14 times than Murray. 

That’s my point exactly, there is no lead back on this team IF Harris gets hurt.  If he does, there’s nobody to pick up the power game, but Allen.  This goes back to my dislike of the pick of Cook as he’s not REALLY a starter and you shouldn’t be using 2nd round picks on guys who are so limited.   That said, we have him, and a very similar player in Hynes.  Then you have Harris, who is talented, but has not stayed healthy and Murray who is better than people want to give him credit for, but is not the guy you WANT starting.  That said, the only lead backs on this team are Harris and Murray, the other two are simply not guys who are built for, nor run with the style of a #1 back. 

[HappyDays]

3 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

That’s my point exactly, there is no lead back on this team IF Harris gets hurt.  If he does, there’s nobody to pick up the power game, but Allen.  This goes back to my dislike of the pick of Cook as he’s not REALLY a starter and you shouldn’t be using 2nd round picks on guys who are so limited.   That said, we have him, and a very similar player in Hynes.  Then you have Harris, who is talented, but has not stayed healthy and Murray who is better than people want to give him credit for, but is not the guy you WANT starting.  That said, the only lead backs on this team are Harris and Murray, the other two are simply not guys who are built for, nor run with the style of a #1 back. 

 

So in your mind Christian McCaffrey, Aaron Jones, and Austin Ekeler are not lead backs?

[DCofNC]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

So in your mind Christian McCaffrey, Aaron Jones, and Austin Ekeler are not lead backs?

They are and they have enough power to lower a shoulder and score as well, something Cook has never shown.  They also have exceptional contact balance, another thing he lacks.  Cook is a finesse player, those guys are complete players, though CMC and Ekeler are on a different planet than Jones. 

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

That’s my point exactly, there is no lead back on this team IF Harris gets hurt.  If he does, there’s nobody to pick up the power game, but Allen.  This goes back to my dislike of the pick of Cook as he’s not REALLY a starter and you shouldn’t be using 2nd round picks on guys who are so limited.   That said, we have him, and a very similar player in Hynes.  Then you have Harris, who is talented, but has not stayed healthy and Murray who is better than people want to give him credit for, but is not the guy you WANT starting.  That said, the only lead backs on this team are Harris and Murray, the other two are simply not guys who are built for, nor run with the style of a #1 back. 

 

I have been a big fan of Latavius through his career. But at this stage he is a not a #1 back. He is a goalline and short yardage only player. 

 

I don't love the Cook pick either but he has to get a lot of the ball. He will be more productive with it at this stage of his career than Murray.

 

1 minute ago, DCofNC said:

They are and they have enough power to lower a shoulder and score as well, something Cook has never shown.  They also have exceptional contact balance, another thing he lacks.  Cook is a finesse player, those guys are complete players, though CMC and Ekeler are on a different planet than Jones. 

 

Ekeler is a finesse back too.

[BADOLBILZ]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I have been a big fan of Latavius through his career. But at this stage he is a not a #1 back. He is a goalline and short yardage only player. 

 

 

 

Yeah I can't remember where I heard it but I guess Harris and Murray were two of the very best backs in the league at gaining yards inside the 10 yard line last season so I think their signings were probably analytics plays.    I am sure it's like that with Harty as well.........he has done something they feel they lack like YAC or getting separation.   I'm not anti-analytics by any means but I am dubious of a lot of the data that teams isolate as important.