JA - “I’m trying to transition to being the guy that wins from the pocket”

[Royale with Cheese]

9 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

risks that he might miss a quarter of football over 5 years running the ball vs the multiple games and season long impact of two UCL injuries sustained in the pocket?

Have you even figured out that you're wrong yet?

He doesn't though. There have been multiple breakdowns on his limitations with coverage disguises. Here's one:

 

 

LOL

 

The guy has thrown more than 100 TD's and 4,000+ yards each season in the last 3.  This one 23 minute video from a guy is proof that Allen can't?

Come on.

[BADOLBILZ]

30 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

risks that he might miss a quarter of football over 5 years running the ball vs the multiple games and season long impact of two UCL injuries sustained in the pocket?

Have you even figured out that you're wrong yet

 

 

 

 

He missed his age 19 season in college with a broken clavicle running the ball in his first career start.  

 

That's the only injury that he's missed significant time from in his career (unless you count the other broken clavicle that ended his season in HS).

 

And it happened outside of the pocket.  

 

As did his only documented concussion.........on a play where he got blasted.

 

The point is that contrary to your nonsense..........he does not become unlikely to suffer season ending level injuries when he starts running the ball.   

 

The only significant time that Aaron Rodgers has missed in his career?   Broken clavicle in 2013 and again in 2017..........both happened when scrambling outside of the pocket.    One of them was landing on his left shoulder with the ball tucked.   

 

I understand why you want to be willfully ignorant on this subject but you are just full of sh!t and I am pointing it out. 

 

 

[BullBuchanan]

34 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

He missed his age 19 season

 

 

I stopped reading what you had to say right there. 8 years ago, lol. 🤡

[Billl]

12 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

He missed his age 19 season in college with a broken clavicle running the ball in his first career start.  

 

That's the only injury that he's missed significant time from in his career (unless you count the other broken clavicle that ended his season in HS).

 

And it happened outside of the pocket.  

 

As did his only documented concussion.........on a play where he got blasted.

 

The point is that contrary to your nonsense..........he does not become unlikely to suffer season ending level injuries when he starts running the ball.   

 

The only significant time that Aaron Rodgers has missed in his career?   Broken clavicle in 2013 and again in 2017..........both happened when scrambling outside of the pocket.    One of them was landing on his left shoulder with the ball tucked.   

 

I understand why you want to be willfully ignorant on this subject but you are just full of sh!t and I am pointing it out. 

 

 

…to say nothing of the fact that QBs who run still take the same hits in the pocket. They just take additional hits when they run.  It’s like people forget that fact of life.  Plus injuries are cumulative.  It’s not like Cam’s career went to hell over one specific hit.  He absorbed years of punishment that eventually caught up with him.

16 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

I stopped reading what you had to say right there. 8 years ago, lol. 🤡

At what age do QBs stop getting injured from hits they take when running?

[BADOLBILZ]

32 minutes ago, Billl said:

At what age do QBs stop getting injured from hits they take when running?

 

 

Basically, @BullBuchanan is just

 

 

Doesn't want to consider the truth.

 

The reality is that running the ball in the NFL comes with less protections and a different set of risks.  

 

One of those is a particular injury he's suffered twice.......broken clavicle.   

 

In the pocket the league has made it less likely that QB's will have the full weight of a defender fall on them...........when you are scrambling/running that protection is lost.

 

 

 

[Franco_92]

3 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

risks that he might miss a quarter of football over 5 years running the ball vs the multiple games and season long impact of two UCL injuries sustained in the pocket?

Have you even figured out that you're wrong yet?

He doesn't though. There have been multiple breakdowns on his limitations with coverage disguises. Here's one:

 

Coming back to the list: 

1.) Become a master of Dorseys offense.  Know the playbook better than Dorsey.

2.) Recognize defensive coverages and disguised defensive coverages (cover 0, 1, 2 and 3)

3.) Be able to audible to a better play (see step 1) once he does step 2.  Audible from a run to pass or pass to run at the very least.  How much audibling did Josh do last season ?

4.) Move his RB around for better blocking once he recognizes the blitzing LB.  The Mike, Sam, etc

 

I should be more charitable on point 1: This sort of thing only accrues with time and reps, and Allen acknowledged that it was something he needed to continue to work at improving. 

 

But point 2 is undergrad quarterbacking - Josh is elite faculty at an ivy league institution

 

Points 3 and 4 are far more nuanced than "Josh is limited in this area and needs to start getting better to win the super bowl" 

 

As Brett alludes to in this video I remember watching when it came out (thanks for reposting, it's a good video), adjustments are a constant dance dependent on coaching, QBs, protection, and skill players winning 1v1s. That's why football is simultaneously so complicated and always building on itself, while also not completely reinventing playbooks from scratch year after year (1v1 matchups make it so no scheme or counter to it is perfect, so things can work and then later not work against the same QB). Bill Belichick engaged in the same Cover - 1, then hide Cover - 2, dance just 8 months before the game in the video. The result was arguably the greatest QB performance in playoff history. Josh and Dorsey DID adjust on a drive by drive basis, just like Miami did. Miami was fiendish in their desperation to FINALLY put the reigns on this guy that had tormented them for years - it showed. Cover-0 looks into TAMPA TWO is INSANE. It's awesome, and completely bonkers. Allen needing a drive or two to try and get a handle on ***** like that is not a "limitation," it's a "holy ***** Miami lol" 

Miami played the same way in the playoffs too. It forced a couple turnovers. But it also allowed us to rack up about 1500 yards and 9 passing TDs in these 3 games. Allen still walked all over them in week 3 despite 150 degree heat index and 3 OL left, one of which had a torn ACL. They just couldn't finish 2 drives. They finished those drives the next two matchups, scoring a combined 66 points. I'd call that making adjustments at a level sufficient of a super bowl-capable QB. Allen simply is. There are always things to learn, get better at, and adjust to. Teams are always capable of temporarily stumping any QB. Mahomes had a lot of trouble in September and October of 2021 for the same reasons Josh did in the middle/end of that year. But like Mahomes, Josh has shown time and time again that those things won't keep him down for long. The same looks that Belichick used to burn him in 2019, teams are TERRIFIED to use now. And when Josh doesn't have a UCL injury and underwhelming weapons, he's shown he can back off into two high shell beaters when he has to as well. The variable in all of this is and will always be 1v1 matchups, and who can solve what at just the right time, and whose team is more talented, whose coach is a tick more clever on this drive or that, as always. Josh has already shown he does this stuff at rare levels, which was the point of my post

 

Oh, and that video is a great example of what I was saying a few months ago. The Dolphins are basically THE cover-0 team of the last 5 years. It's demonstrably the most "aggressive" call in the defensive playbook, as Brett emphasizes. Bills fans calling Frazier "not aggressive enough" because his Corners were in off coverage on cover 0 against cinci did not understand the call. The call was too aggressive for the situation. A hot route, quick slant gets the first down there, that's not when you call something that aggressive. You don't use press coverage in cover 0, and every time the dolphins called it or showed it, they were just as far back as the Bills were against cinci

Edited July 11, 2023 by arcane

[CincyBillsFan]

9 minutes ago, arcane said:

Miami played the same way in the playoffs too. It forced a couple turnovers. But it also allowed us to rack up about 1500 yards and 9 passing TDs in these 3 games.

And those gaudy numbers in close games (no garbage yards against a prevent D) were accomplished with only ONE elite play maker on offense.

 

 

[Bill from NYC]

13 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Basically, @BullBuchanan is just

 

 

Doesn't want to consider the truth.

 

The reality is that running the ball in the NFL comes with less protections and a different set of risks.  

 

One of those is a particular injury he's suffered twice.......broken clavicle.   

 

In the pocket the league has made it less likely that QB's will have the full weight of a defender fall on them...........when you are scrambling/running that protection is lost.

 

 

 

The above is pure common sense. Hey, I too confess to enjoying watching Josh run. He is big, fast, strong and athletic, and i'm thinking that DBs have to stay back because the man can flick a football 50 yards from his wrist. Still, when he takes off it leaves a knot in my stomach because at some point, he will get destroyed. It is all but inevitable.

 

Derrick Henry is much stronger than Josh. It isn't close and even he is probably slowing down considerably at the age of 29. Like you say in other threads, QBs are protected these days. Owners cannot slip players money to pay fines for flagrant fouls like they did in the old NFL. I can only imagine the careers that QBs like Dan Fouts, Ken Stabler, and Bert Jones, etc. would have had with these new rules but I digress. At the same time, RBs are getting slaughtered and do not last. There is way to much brutal contact for them to hold up.

 

The last point I will make is a sad one. Without Josh, the Bills stand very little to no chance of winning, let alone making it to a Supperbowl. The roster without Josh doesn't suck, but it wouldn't really scare most teams. This is why I get so pissed off when the Bills neglect the OL and WR positions on draft day. If they continue to do so, I truly believe that Josh is going to get really furious down the road and I won't blame him. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Bill from NYC
Typo

[SectionC3]

2 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

The above is pure common sense. Hey, I too confess to enjoying watching Josh run. He is big, fast, strong and athletic, and i'm thinking that DBs have to stay back because the man can flick a football 50 yards from his wrist. Still, when he takes off it leaves a knot in my stomach because at some point, he will get destroyed. It is all but inevitable.

 

Derrick Henry is much stronger than Josh. It isn't close and even he is probably slowing down considerably at the age of 29. Like you say in other threads, QBs are protected these days. Owners cannot slip players money to pay fines for flagrant fouls like they did in the old NFL. I can only imagine the careers that QBs like Dan Fouts, Ken Stabler, and Bert Jones, etc. would have had with these new rules but I digress. At the same time, RBs are getting slaughtered and do not last. There is way to much brutal contact for them to hold up.

 

The last point I will make is a sad one. Without Josh, the Bills stand very little to no chance of winning, let alone making it to a Supperbowl. The roster without Josh doesn't suck, but it wouldn't really scare most teams. This is why I get so pissed off when the Bills neglect the OL and WR positions on draft day. If they continue to do so, I truly berlieve that Josh is going to get really furious down the road and I won't blame him. 

They obviously made an effort this year, but I generally agree with you.  Gotta pay to protect him.  

 

 

13 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

He missed his age 19 season in college with a broken clavicle running the ball in his first career start.  

 

That's the only injury that he's missed significant time from in his career (unless you count the other broken clavicle that ended his season in HS).

 

And it happened outside of the pocket.  

 

As did his only documented concussion.........on a play where he got blasted.

 

The point is that contrary to your nonsense..........he does not become unlikely to suffer season ending level injuries when he starts running the ball.   

 

The only significant time that Aaron Rodgers has missed in his career?   Broken clavicle in 2013 and again in 2017..........both happened when scrambling outside of the pocket.    One of them was landing on his left shoulder with the ball tucked.   

 

I understand why you want to be willfully ignorant on this subject but you are just full of sh!t and I am pointing it out. 

 

 

I think there's a difference between designed runs and pocket escapes.  We cannot keep using Josh as our short-yardage back.  It has to change.  I don't mind the escapes - I think there's more danger in the pocket in those scenarios - but we are going to shorten this guy's career if we continue to use him as a battering ram. 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, SectionC3 said:

 I don't mind the escapes - I think there's more danger in the pocket in those scenarios - but we are going to shorten this guy's career if we continue to use him as a battering ram. 

 

 

I think you would be wrong about there being MORE danger in the pocket.   Both of Rodgers broken clavicle injuries occurred on pocket escapes.  

 

But I agree that the designed runs have to end.

 

Ultimately they just need to get the ball out of Allen's hands quicker on a more frequent basis like KC is doing with Mahomes now.    That stuff mutes pass rush and decreases potential for injury across the board.

 

The problem is........if you don't have playmakers to throw the ball too you need to be remarkably accurate/precise to run an offense that way.     The Bills have neither the weapons or the precision passing QB to execute that kind of offense right now and they won't get the latter without the former, IMO.    Until they put the talent around Allen he's going to just presume he has to run around until someone gets open and we then probably won't see him back perfecting his craft as a passer in the offseasons again like he did early in his career.

[The Frankish Reich]

On 7/6/2023 at 3:05 PM, Chicken Boo said:

Russell Wilson is the best ever at not taking hits when scrambling

Russell Wilson WAS the best at not taking hits when scrambling. The historical durability of running (not scrambling/buying time - I mean tucking the ball and taking off) QBs is not promising...

[Jukester]

3 hours ago, SectionC3 said:

They obviously made an effort this year, but I generally agree with you.  Gotta pay to protect him.  

 

 

I think there's a difference between designed runs and pocket escapes.  We cannot keep using Josh as our short-yardage back.  It has to change.  I don't mind the escapes - I think there's more danger in the pocket in those scenarios - but we are going to shorten this guy's career if we continue to use him as a battering ram. 

Agree 100%.  But on the escapes there’s just two simple thing Josh needs to learn - how to baseball slide and step out of bounds. It’s that simple. He loves running over people and that’s the biggest threat to him staying healthy and prolonging longevity. So making him a pure pocket passer and never running would be stupid. He’s too talented with his legs. Just teach him to protect himself. He’s done it at times but not consistently. Mahomes is a master at it.
I am still convinced Josh got concussed in the Green Bay game last year. 

[SectionC3]

43 minutes ago, Jukester said:

Agree 100%.  But on the escapes there’s just two simple thing Josh needs to learn - how to baseball slide and step out of bounds. It’s that simple. He loves running over people and that’s the biggest threat to him staying healthy and prolonging longevity. So making him a pure pocket passer and never running would be stupid. He’s too talented with his legs. Just teach him to protect himself. He’s done it at times but not consistently. Mahomes is a master at it.
I am still convinced Josh got concussed in the Green Bay game last year. 

I completely agree on the concussion.  That was right in front of me. It was a LOUD, violent hit.  

[Warriorspikes51]

well then, PLEASE implement a quick strike passing game! 

[Drew21PA]

When he does - he ups his game EVEN MORE

 

Because then he DOESNT have to tuck and run but can and will burn you

[GoBills808]

3 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

well then, PLEASE implement a quick strike passing game! 

To who lol? Dawson Knox and Davis?

[Shaw66]

11 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

The above is pure common sense. Hey, I too confess to enjoying watching Josh run. He is big, fast, strong and athletic, and i'm thinking that DBs have to stay back because the man can flick a football 50 yards from his wrist. Still, when he takes off it leaves a knot in my stomach because at some point, he will get destroyed. It is all but inevitable.

 

Derrick Henry is much stronger than Josh. It isn't close and even he is probably slowing down considerably at the age of 29. Like you say in other threads, QBs are protected these days. Owners cannot slip players money to pay fines for flagrant fouls like they did in the old NFL. I can only imagine the careers that QBs like Dan Fouts, Ken Stabler, and Bert Jones, etc. would have had with these new rules but I digress. At the same time, RBs are getting slaughtered and do not last. There is way to much brutal contact for them to hold up.

 

The last point I will make is a sad one. Without Josh, the Bills stand very little to no chance of winning, let alone making it to a Supperbowl. The roster without Josh doesn't suck, but it wouldn't really scare most teams. This is why I get so pissed off when the Bills neglect the OL and WR positions on draft day. If they continue to do so, I truly believe that Josh is going to get really furious down the road and I won't blame him. 

Actually, I don't think the fundamental point is about running and risk of injury, although I agree that if Josh keeps running, he's going to get hurt, and he's going to slow down.  The fundamental point is as I said earlier - he needs to be a better decision maker on the field.  He needs to be a better passer, finding the right guys and hitting them.  He isn't good enough at that yet and oddly enough, his running has something to do with that.  When Josh doesn't make the right decision, he often runs, and his running turns a bad play into a good play.  The result is that he isn't forced to learn how to make the right decisions.  

 

As for Derrick Henry - look up his stats. The guy gained 1500 yards rushing last season, had more receptions than in any previous season, and he did that even though he isn't a three-down back.   I don't think there's any reason to conclude he's "slowing down considerably."  

 

As for your last paragraph, it's simply a truism:  In order to have a good chance of making it to the Super Bowl, you have to have a stud quarterback.  The Chiefs aren't winning consistently without Mahomes, nor the Bengals without Burrow, etc.  Roethlisberger was a serious running threat when he was young - not like Josh, but he ran well and hurt teams because he was big and picked his spots.  Then he got banged up, more and more, and eventually he couldn't run much at all.  But he played a lot of good football later in his career because he kept getting smarter and smarter with the ball.  

 

The point is, Josh's mobility, or the loss of it, is not what's going to determine how successful he and his teams are going to be.   It's his quarterbacking skill.  When he can manage the game, play after play, like Mahomes and Brady, he'll win all day long, because NOBODY throws like Josh. 

[Bill from NYC]

15 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Actually, I don't think the fundamental point is about running and risk of injury, although I agree that if Josh keeps running, he's going to get hurt, and he's going to slow down.  The fundamental point is as I said earlier - he needs to be a better decision maker on the field.  He needs to be a better passer, finding the right guys and hitting them.  He isn't good enough at that yet and oddly enough, his running has something to do with that.  When Josh doesn't make the right decision, he often runs, and his running turns a bad play into a good play.  The result is that he isn't forced to learn how to make the right decisions.  

 

As for Derrick Henry - look up his stats. The guy gained 1500 yards rushing last season, had more receptions than in any previous season, and he did that even though he isn't a three-down back.   I don't think there's any reason to conclude he's "slowing down considerably."  

 

As for your last paragraph, it's simply a truism:  In order to have a good chance of making it to the Super Bowl, you have to have a stud quarterback.  The Chiefs aren't winning consistently without Mahomes, nor the Bengals without Burrow, etc.  Roethlisberger was a serious running threat when he was young - not like Josh, but he ran well and hurt teams because he was big and picked his spots.  Then he got banged up, more and more, and eventually he couldn't run much at all.  But he played a lot of good football later in his career because he kept getting smarter and smarter with the ball.  

 

The point is, Josh's mobility, or the loss of it, is not what's going to determine how successful he and his teams are going to be.   It's his quarterbacking skill.  When he can manage the game, play after play, like Mahomes and Brady, he'll win all day long, because NOBODY throws like Josh. 

You were doing well until the end. You see, if Nathan Peterman could "manage the game, play after play, like Brady and Mahomes," HE would even "win all day long." 

 

Keeping Josh healthy should be the #1 priority of McDermott. He doesn't focus enough on the OL so it obviously is not. 

The #2 priority should be providing him with weapons. He does an inadequate job at this as well. 

 

Call me crazy but if Josh continues to take these risks he will almost certainly sustain injuries.

 

Hey, jmo.

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Bill from NYC

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

You were doing well until the end. You see, if Nathan Peterman could "manage the game, play after play, lile Brady and Mahomes," HE would even "win all day long." 

 

Keeping Josh healthy should be the #1 priority of McDermott. He doesn't focus enough on the OL so it obviously is not. 

The #2 priority should be providing him with weapons. He does an inadequate job at this as well. 

 

Call me crazy but if Josh continues to take these risks he will almost certainly sustaain injuries.

 

Hey, jmo.

 

We sort of agree.  Whether Josh gets injured or not, he almost certainly will not be running five years from now like he was running two years ago.  The wear and tear on players is simply too great to expect them to continue to play like they did in their early 20s.  

 

Nathan Peterman is exactly the point.   Super Bowl quarterbacks are great game managers and decision makers.   Brady, Mahomes, Montana, Rodgers.  Great quarterbacks are elite in that area, and whether they can run or not is pretty much irrelevant.  Allen's highlight reels are fabulous and Brady's are boring.   Running is a nice piece of his game, but if he doesn't get the presnap and postsnap reads right, running can't save him.   That's exactly what we've seen from Josh.  Spectacular as he is running the ball, running QBs don't win Super Bowls.   That's why no matter how many unbelievable runs we see from Lamar Jackson, he's not my quarterback.   

 

And although I can see the logic behind saying the Bills need to be better at drafting offensive linemen in the first and second round, it just isn't that simple when you're picking at #28.  The Bills really needed a corner back last season, and pretty much no one was complaining when they took Elam.  Elite tackles are almost always gone by then, and it's very unusual to take a guard in the first round.  So, they got their guard in the second round this season.  Similarly, stud wideouts are hard to find - it's easy in hindsight, but late-first-round wideouts often flame out.  Most second-round receivers have little impact in their rookie seasons.   Again, I'm not saying there isn't some logic in what you say, but I don't think it's as simple as you think.  Even given that, they took Kincaid.   I don't see much reason to complain about how they've acquired talent. 

 

This league is about quarterback play - it's about having a coach on the field taking snaps, elite, cerebral talent.  And it's about creative offensive play design and play calling.  It's likely the Bills will have a better offensive line this season, with Brown healthy, and two new guards who both will challenge for starting jobs.  They have a better collection of receivers, particularly if Kincaid does what everyone expects of him.  The Bills' success will depend on whether Dorsey can prepare an effective offensive, and where Josh can execute it.  Where we agree is that an effective offense is NOT expecting Josh to be Superman carrying the ball.  It's a bad solution for the short term and for the long term.

[Patrick Duffy]

On 7/11/2023 at 9:51 AM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I think you would be wrong about there being MORE danger in the pocket.   Both of Rodgers broken clavicle injuries occurred on pocket escapes.  

 

But I agree that the designed runs have to end.

 

Ultimately they just need to get the ball out of Allen's hands quicker on a more frequent basis like KC is doing with Mahomes now.    That stuff mutes pass rush and decreases potential for injury across the board.

 

The problem is........if you don't have playmakers to throw the ball too you need to be remarkably accurate/precise to run an offense that way.     The Bills have neither the weapons or the precision passing QB to execute that kind of offense right now and they won't get the latter without the former, IMO.    Until they put the talent around Allen he's going to just presume he has to run around until someone gets open and we then probably won't see him back perfecting his craft as a passer in the offseasons again like he did early in his career.

 

Agreed, pretty much everyone gets that bit of, guess you'd call it "extra excitement" when Josh takes off because he does amazing things. I fully agree about the designed runs though, definitely need to cut back.

 

And adding to your statement in bold, that's correct and it probably goes without saying here, but also the Oline protection (or lack thereof ) along with that being the 2 main issues.