ESPN article ranking the top NFL rosters

[PBF81]

16 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/23259671221079637

 

Interesting study

 

 

[NewEra]

I wonder if we can turn this thread into every other thread?

 

yup

[PBF81]

15 hours ago, Augie said:

 

This seems flawed from the beginning. It measures how many players play for 3 years post ACL surgery, while ignoring that the average career is only about 3.5 years. WHY are they out of the league? It may be knee related, or guys just don’t last that long. You would expect a low percentage. 

 

I'm not sure that flawed is the right descriptor there.  Like many or even most studies it's limited.  

 

Unless I missed it, I didn't see any accounting for age e.g. 

 

It definitely presented some interesting and relevant stuff.  

 

 

[TC in St. Louis]

I can't wait for this season.  The team has improved at RB, TE, OL, WR, DL, DE, CB, and safety.  Hold steady at LB and let's roll.

[PBF81]

15 hours ago, Augie said:

Still, saying only 28.5% are still in the league 3 years later still sounds like a leading statement, and maybe even misleading. What percentage of players without ACL surgery are still in the league 3 years later. How different is that number? 

 

You just hit on one of that study's issues as it person's to our discussion.

 

Christian Benford suffering an ACL injury would likely end his mediocre career, if not immediately then likely within a season or two tops.  Why?  Because he's not very good to begin with.  White is different.

 

Not that that disputes its conclusions, but I didn't see any provisions for age or how good a player is.  I mean it's pretty certain that a player that is fortunate to make a roster, with an ACL tear, would be finished in the league anyway, regardless of surgery results.  

 

It opens up after that and gets more statistically complicated as well.  Just throwing that out there as one of its nonconsiderations.  

 

 

[PBF81]

7 hours ago, Pirate Angel said:

With an improved offensive lines and better RBs we should be less predictable. A respectable run game will change the way defenses play us. Hopefully Gabes foot injury is behind him and he improves. 

 

Keep in mind though that better RBs hasn't been our issue.  I also think that time will prove that Singletary is better than Harris, easily, and for certain he's more versatile.  

 

But our problem has simply been putting our RBs to use, particularly when they were running incredibly well.  As I've said, it seems that Dorsey called games last year as if he was vicariously playing QB via Allen.  Like a kid in a pick-up game that constantly has to have the ball.  We all saw those games where our RBs were chewing up yardage by the bushel, and all of a sudden it's an inexplicable lengthy string of passing plays.  It was odd.  

 

 

[PBF81]

22 minutes ago, TC in St. Louis said:

I can't wait for this season.  The team has improved at RB, TE, OL, WR, DL, DE, CB, and safety.  Hold steady at LB and let's roll.

 

Well, that's the narrative anyway.  I would question whether we've improved at RB, CB, Safety or even held steady at LB.  Singletary was more versatile than Harris has ever been in a season, he also averaged more YPC.  Whether a bruiser 2-down three-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust type RB is an improvement remains to be seen.  Our CBs weren't good last season, so improvement is relative there, we could improve but still have a very average unit.  Safety depends largely upon the injury statuses of both Poyer and Hyde as they age further into their back 9s.  At LB Floyd is a situational player and we have no idea how MLB is going to look right now.  

 

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

18 hours ago, FireChans said:

I think I'd rather have 1 star and 1 solid starter than 4 solid starters in today's NFL.

Nope. Not in McDs defense. He rarely allows his top DB to shadow another teams star WR. 

In this league having 4 quality starter level CBs is a true asset.  Look at the injuries last year alone to Benford and Jackson. White missed time even before the ACL. 

Some have advocated trading Jackson or one of the other guys. 

I think that would be crazy. 

Keep all 4 and if White doesn't return to form move on from him after this year. 

[NewEra]

6 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Keep in mind though that better RBs hasn't been our issue.  I also think that time will prove that Singletary is better than Harris, easily, and for certain he's more versatile.  

 

But our problem has simply been putting our RBs to use, particularly when they were running incredibly well.  As I've said, it seems that Dorsey called games last year as if he was vicariously playing QB via Allen.  Like a kid in a pick-up game that constantly has to have the ball.  We all saw those games where our RBs were chewing up yardage by the bushel, and all of a sudden it's an inexplicable lengthy string of passing plays.  It was odd.  

 

 

prior to drafting cook, RB was an issue.  Like everyone on the board had said ad nauseam, no one is afraid of our RBs.  No one.   You’d be the first to admit that Beane screwed up when drafting Zack Moss in rd 3 a year after drafting motor rd 3. Neither with speed.  Neither with true power.  2 mid backs.  
 

Motor is more “versatile” than Harris??  Who cares?  We don’t need versatile.  Our RB1 is versatile.  We needed a RB that can move a pile and be a force on the goal line and short yardage situations.  A back that can allow us to NOT use 17’s legs on every short yard attempt.  So…. contrary to your post, RB WAS an issue. We had no one to move the pile.  Now we have 2.
 

 

 

[Haslett_Stomp]

1 minute ago, PBF81 said:

 

Well, that's the narrative anyway.  I would question whether we've improved at RB, CB, Safety or even held steady at LB.  Singletary was more versatile than Harris has ever been in a season, he also averaged more YPC.  Whether a bruiser 2-down three-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust type RB is an improvement remains to be seen.  Our CBs weren't good last season, so improvement is relative there, we could improve but still have a very average unit.  Safety depends largely upon the injury statuses of both Poyer and Hyde as they age further into their back 9s.  At LB Floyd is a situational player and we have no idea how MLB is going to look right now.  

 

 

 

I liked Singletary, however his propensity for drive-killing turnovers/miscues offset many of his positive contributions to the offense.  The same can be said of Davis last season, however I have a hunch he (Davis) will have the kind of season in 2023 everyone was predicting he would have in 2022.

[PBF81]

56 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

The fact that he will draft RBs in the top half of the draft over WRs is extremely head scratching… Specifically targeting James Cook as opposed to someone like George Pickens(I know they’d have to trade up for him).

 

It is headscratching, but I'm not a fan of Beane's, you know that.  I'm sure that McD has had a hand in our drafts also, but the biggest flaw that I've seen with them, apart from not getting the value commensurate with the draft spots of their draftees, is in not drafting the positions that would give us the biggest improvement in our ability to effectively navigate the playoffs.  As you say, taking RBs on day 2 consistently, but only drafting WRs on day 3, and 4 of 7 in rounds 6 and 7, makes zero sense given where we've been and that we have Allen.  

 

Similar for OL.  

 

Round 1:  2 DL 

Round 2:  2 OL (one no longer here, the other TBD), 2 DL 
Round 3:  1 OL, 1 DL 

Round 4:  none 

Round 5:  2 OL (one gone, one soon to be cut) 

Round 6:  1 OL (no longer here) 

Round 7:  2 OL, 1 DL  (only this year's OL is here) 

 

That would be fine if in the playoffs our D actually showed up more often than not, but that's not the case.  

 

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

17 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Well, that's the narrative anyway.  I would question whether we've improved at RB, CB, Safety or even held steady at LB.  Singletary was more versatile than Harris has ever been in a season, he also averaged more YPC.  Whether a bruiser 2-down three-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust type RB is an improvement remains to be seen.  Our CBs weren't good last season, so improvement is relative there, we could improve but still have a very average unit.  Safety depends largely upon the injury statuses of both Poyer and Hyde as they age further into their back 9s.  At LB Floyd is a situational player and we have no idea how MLB is going to look right now.  

 

 

Elam was playing well down the stretch. McD should have installed him as day 1 starter. Elam should be very good. The question at CB is White. 

MLB is an unmitigated disaster. Quite amazing that they will have an actual downgrade at MLB. I never thought Edmunds made much of an impact but never thought of him as a liability. Now they have smurfs at MLB. I don't agree with the thought process from Beane on MLB. At least Williams seems to have a nose for the ball. 

As for RB, I think Cook does everything Singletary did and Harris is a solid backup. I like the RB moves.

Floyd is a pass rush specialist not a LB. His job is solely to let Miller heal for the first 6 weeks. Then he becomes a solid depth guy for the playoffs. He keeps Epenesa off the field when the game matters. 

The interior of the DL is sneaky better. Hopefully Oliver lives up to the contract. I would never have signed him long term. Hate the move. 

For me biggest question mark is OT. Dawkins regressed and Brown was terrible. Brown still has potential. Beane seems to believe in him more than anyone. Beane's track record on OL is pretty dismal though.  If Doyle is on the 53 that is problematic. I would not be shocked if Snell is starting at RT by week 8 if Brown disappoints again.

I think this is Dawkins last year. He did not get a contract restructure for a reason. They will draft his replacement next year and free up cap space by letting Dawkins go. 

[PBF81]

9 minutes ago, NewEra said:

prior to drafting cook, RB was an issue.  Like everyone on the board had said ad nauseam, no one is afraid of our RBs.  No one.   You’d be the first to admit that Beane screwed up when drafting Zack Moss in rd 3 a year after drafting motor rd 3. Neither with speed.  Neither with true power.  2 mid backs.  
 

Motor is more “versatile” than Harris??  Who cares?  We don’t need versatile.  Our RB1 is versatile.  We needed a RB that can move a pile and be a force on the goal line and short yardage situations.  A back that can allow us to NOT use 17’s legs on every short yard attempt.  So…. contrary to your post, RB WAS an issue. We had no one to move the pile.  Now we have 2.

 

No one was afraid of our RBs because they knew we wouldn't use them.  We used them less than any other team in the league.  I also distinctly recall reading in many a game thread many talking about how both Cook & Singletary were ripping off huge chunks of yards before Dorsey all but completely abandoned the running game thereafter.  That was my primary point.  

 

Whether or not we need versatility is in the RBs depends upon the play-calling.  Harris' TDs are typically goal-line kinda TDs.  Is he really going to make that kind of difference?  We don't struggle from down there.  We ranked 1st in the league in 3rd-down-conversions, is he really going to add anything there?  

 

I simply don't understand what Harris brings that helps us, besides the narrative, which makes no sense to me.  Sounds like simply more fan-based hope for hope's sake kinda stuff.  

 

Are we really going to become more of a pure running team now that Harris is here?  The smart money says not-a-chance.  I don't see us leaping from DFL in RB utilization to average.  

 

And yes, Moss was a terrible pick.  But consider, Moss and Harris are similarly styled RBs.  IMO Harris is a "mid back" as you put it, as well.  He did nothing great in NE.  ... except against us, literally.  Against the 30 other teams he was the definition of average.  

 

We'll see what happens soon, how they even use our RBs.  So far they've been an afterthought.  

 

 

[PBF81]

33 minutes ago, Haslett_Stomp said:

 

I liked Singletary, however his propensity for drive-killing turnovers/miscues offset many of his positive contributions to the offense.  The same can be said of Davis last season, however I have a hunch he (Davis) will have the kind of season in 2023 everyone was predicting he would have in 2022.

 

You've gotta watch those narratives.  Singletary only fumbled three times last season, twice in wins, once vs. Minnesota, but in that game Minny went 3-and-out the following drive and we got the ball back and scored a TD, so it didn't even matter.  

 

I'm not sure how he would have killed drives otherwise.  We were 1st in the league in 3rd-down-convs.  

 

 

[NewEra]

57 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

No one was afraid of our RBs because they knew we wouldn't use them.  We used them less than any other team in the league.  I also distinctly recall reading in many a game thread many talking about how both Cook & Singletary were ripping off huge chunks of yards before Dorsey all but completely abandoned the running game thereafter.  That was my primary point.  

 

Whether or not we need versatility is in the RBs depends upon the play-calling.  Harris' TDs are typically goal-line kinda TDs.  Is he really going to make that kind of difference?  We don't struggle from down there.  We ranked 1st in the league in 3rd-down-conversions, is he really going to add anything there?  

 

I simply don't understand what Harris brings that helps us, besides the narrative, which makes no sense to me.  Sounds like simply more fan-based hope for hope's sake kinda stuff.  

 

Are we really going to become more of a pure running team now that Harris is here?  The smart money says not-a-chance.  I don't see us leaping from DFL in RB utilization to average.  

 

And yes, Moss was a terrible pick.  But consider, Moss and Harris are similarly styled RBs.  IMO Harris is a "mid back" as you put it, as well.  He did nothing great in NE.  ... except against us, literally.  Against the 30 other teams he was the definition of average.  

 

We'll see what happens soon, how they even use our RBs.  So far they've been an afterthought.  

 

 

I disagree.

 

I’m a motor fan.  I defended him throughout his career here.  He’s a very good make you miss back but he his midget hands, fumbling tendencies, gaffes in the pass game and lack of extra gear is why he wasn’t used as much as some (including me) would’ve liked.   Cook has the extra gear.  Harris has the between the tackles prowess that Motor was missing. Our RB room is much more versatile now that motor and Moss are gone and Harris and Murray are here.

 

I do agree that the play calling is part of the problem- not giving Dorsey (or Daboll) a pass.  I disagree that the RB room isn’t improved and that the RB talent wasn’t part of the problem.  The talent was lacking prior to drafting Cook.  It lacked speed, good hand and power up the middle.  Now we have all 3

[Solomon Grundy]

2 hours ago, NewEra said:

I wonder if we can turn this thread into every other thread?

 

yup

Yes!! Freddie Coleman just diffused Chris Canty on First Take. Freddie called the Bills "the landlords" of the AFC EAST and believes Josh will correct the turnover problems to win it again. Canty chose the Dolphins

[FireChans]

3 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

Shhh!!  Beane doesn't have a weak spot!  

 

Besides, that's not at all true, just look at his draft history:

 

2nd Round:  1 RB

3rd Round:  2 RBs 

4th Round:  1 WR

5th Round:  2 WRs

6th Round:  3 WRs (none still here) 

7th Round:  1 WR (no longer here) 

 

Day 1:  None

Day 2:  3 RBs

Day 3:  7 WRs (only 3 still here, one likely in his last season, the other two from this past draft and last year's draft) 

 

So it's clearly not true, and probably best never to challenge Beane's methods here again.  (sarcasm) 

 

Sidenote:  The only great WR he's ever brought here, we paid top dollar for and had a drama history. 

 

 

 

I'm curious how good everyone would think that our roster would be if Allen weren't on it. 

 

We'll never know the answer to that, but I have my suspicions. 

 

 

Here’s the thing though. They did nail the Allen pick.

We sat through two decades of teams that had their fair share of drafted success but never hit on a QB. And the adage that nothing matters until you get the QB is true.

[PBF81]

11 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I disagree.

 

I’m a motor fan.  I defended him throughout his career here.  He’s a very good make you miss back but he his midget hands, fumbling tendencies, gaffes in the pass game and lack of extra gear is why he wasn’t used as much as some (including me) would’ve liked.   Cook has the extra gear.  Harris has the between the tackles prowess that Motor was missing. Our RB room is much more versatile now that motor and Moss are gone and Harris and Murray are here.

 

I do agree that the play calling is part of the problem- not giving Dorsey (or Daboll) a pass.  I disagree that the RB room isn’t improved and that the RB talent wasn’t part of the problem.  The talent was lacking prior to drafting Cook.  It lacked speed, good hand and power up the middle.  Now we have all 3

 

We'll find out soon enough.  I guess I'm merely curious as to why you and others are so high on Harris given his relatively pedestrian stats.  ... except for (literally) against us.  

 

 

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Here’s the thing though. They did nail the Allen pick.

We sat through two decades of teams that had their fair share of drafted success but never hit on a QB. And the adage that nothing matters until you get the QB is true.

 

That's a little off the original point, but either way, nailing one pick hardly makes someone a good drafter.  

 

 

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

It is headscratching, but I'm not a fan of Beane's, you know that.  I'm sure that McD has had a hand in our drafts also, but the biggest flaw that I've seen with them, apart from not getting the value commensurate with the draft spots of their draftees, is in not drafting the positions that would give us the biggest improvement in our ability to effectively navigate the playoffs.  As you say, taking RBs on day 2 consistently, but only drafting WRs on day 3, and 4 of 7 in rounds 6 and 7, makes zero sense given where we've been and that we have Allen.  

 

Similar for OL.  

 

Round 1:  2 DL 

Round 2:  2 OL (one no longer here, the other TBD), 2 DL 
Round 3:  1 OL, 1 DL 

Round 4:  none 

Round 5:  2 OL (one gone, one soon to be cut) 

Round 6:  1 OL (no longer here) 

Round 7:  2 OL, 1 DL  (only this year's OL is here) 

 

That would be fine if in the playoffs our D actually showed up more often than not, but that's not the case.  

 

 

Analysis of the investment in the OL that does not include the fact that we have Dawkins and Morse as high paid, relatively young, established starters, is misleading. 

3 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

We'll find out soon enough.  I guess I'm merely curious as to why you and others are so high on Harris given his relatively pedestrian stats.  ... except for (literally) against us.  

 

 

 

That's a little off the original point, but either way, nailing one pick hardly makes someone a good drafter.  

 

 

Every single one of Beane’s second rounders could’ve been All-Pros and we would have still been worse off if we didn’t have Allen. 
 

It was quite possibly the best pick in Bills history.

[hondo in seattle]

6 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

We'll find out soon enough.  I guess I'm merely curious as to why you and others are so high on Harris given his relatively pedestrian stats.  ... except for (literally) against us.  

 

 

 

That's a little off the original point, but either way, nailing one pick hardly makes someone a good drafter.  

 

 

 

I'm high on Harris for something other than stats.  Though I concede my impression of him is largely based on Bills games - which are weirdly the best games of his career.  

 

But from what I've seen, compared to Motor, Harris is bigger, faster, and stronger.   Harris is a much better inside runner for sure - and we need that - but he's a capable outside runner too with some burst.  

 

As for stats, the Pats run a far more balanced offense than ours.  Our offense revolves around Josh - primarily as a passer but also as a runner.  In fact, Josh has been the only runner Bills that opponents actually fear and game-plan against.  The running backs in Buffalo are an afterthought.  And that's why Motor has such a healthy YPC number.  He plays against light boxes, DEs who focus entirely on Josh, and LBs whose first step is backward rather than forward toward the ball carrier. 

 

NE's opponents actually take Patriot RBs seriously and gameplan against them.  It's therefore harder for Pats RBs to achieve good YPC numbers than Bills RBs.