CB Separation analysis - Sauce is ridiculous

[Matt_In_NH]

Is 0-0 ideal, so Steph Gilmore?

[Shaw66]

  On 6/28/2023 at 1:08 PM, LABILLBACKER said:

We've had "bend don't break" defenses since the beginning of time. They don't even remotely work in the playoffs against the elite teams.  Coaches from Walt Corey to Sean McDermott just don't get it.

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I don't think there is anything that McDermott doesn't get.  McDermott sees what wins in the playoffs.  Last season he didn't have the personnel to play any other way.   As I said, I think if he has his starters in the playoffs next season, you'll see a different style of defense.  

[QB Bills]

  On 6/28/2023 at 12:02 PM, DaggersEOD said:

It’s one of my beefs with the Bills. We’re built to win the Reg season, but come playoff time, we struggle. It’s all over our roster. 
 

Our CBs are too small and get manhandled in the playoffs. 
 

Our WRs are small and require agility to get open. Come playoffs, the opposing CBs are much more physical/grabby, and we get thrown off our game. 
 

Our D-Line is the same way. Small agile guys who can win in the Reg season but come playoffs, get held a ton and can’t break through. 
 

We need playoff type players that can power through the jam at the LOS or push through holds on the line. Dominant physical players that can impose their will. 
 

Josh is dominant like that, but not many other Bills players are. Fingers crossed for Kincaid. 
 

If we’re relying on the Refs to call a game like they do in the Reg season, we may see more games like the last one against the Bengals. 

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As a die-hard Bills and Leafs fan, this is a point that hits way too close to home.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

  On 6/28/2023 at 1:08 PM, LABILLBACKER said:

We've had "bend don't break" defenses since the beginning of time. They don't even remotely work in the playoffs against the elite teams.  Coaches from Walt Corey to Sean McDermott just don't get it.

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Chiefs put up like 35 a game in the playoffs when we played them. The Bengals whipped the Bills but that wasn’t a full strength defense mentally or physically.

 

The defense doesn’t bend too much when operating as it should. It isn’t an in your face defense, which I like better, but its a well coached defense that makes few mistakes.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[HereComesTheReignAgain]

  On 6/28/2023 at 1:08 PM, LABILLBACKER said:

We've had "bend don't break" defenses since the beginning of time. They don't even remotely work in the playoffs against the elite teams.  Coaches from Walt Corey to Sean McDermott just don't get it.

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Maybe my definition of "bend don't break" is off, but wouldn't that style of defense give up a lot of yards per game?  Only 5 teams gave up fewer yards per game than the Bills last season. (Only 1 team gave up fewer points per game).  Not bad for a coach that "just doesn't get it".  The defense last season did not perform well in the playoffs, but were also missing several very important pieces. 

[ngbills]

  On 6/28/2023 at 1:51 PM, HereComesTheReignAgain said:

Maybe my definition of "bend don't break" is off, but wouldn't that style of defense give up a lot of yards per game?  Only 5 teams gave up fewer yards per game than the Bills last season. (Only 1 team gave up fewer points per game).  Not bad for a coach that "just doesn't get it".  The defense last season did not perform well in the playoffs, but were also missing several very important pieces. 

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Not if you generate turnovers, the offense makes mistakes - drops etc, or your offense also has long drives. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

  On 6/28/2023 at 1:51 PM, HereComesTheReignAgain said:

Maybe my definition of "bend don't break" is off, but wouldn't that style of defense give up a lot of yards per game?  Only 5 teams gave up fewer yards per game than the Bills last season. (Only 1 team gave up fewer points per game).  Not bad for a coach that "just doesn't get it".  The defense last season did not perform well in the playoffs, but were also missing several very important pieces. 

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He’s saying the defense hasn’t done anything vs Mahomes or Burrow in the playoffs.

[HereComesTheReignAgain]

  On 6/28/2023 at 2:16 PM, Buffalo_Stampede said:

He’s saying the defense hasn’t done anything vs Mahomes or Burrow in the playoffs.

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No, he actually said "We've had "bend don't break" defenses since the beginning of time".   "Since the beginning of time" would include the 2022 regular season as far as I know.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

  On 6/28/2023 at 2:18 PM, HereComesTheReignAgain said:

No, he actually said "We've had "bend don't break" defenses since the beginning of time".   "Since the beginning of time" would include the 2022 regular season as far as I know.

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Yeah he does say that. I Don’t get it. Bills have to be ranked top 5 in yards and points since 2017 on defense.

[34-78-83]

  On 6/28/2023 at 7:33 AM, GunnerBill said:

The comparison table for WRs separating against Man and Zone has Isaiah McKenzie top 5 in separation against man coverage. 

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That's because its true. It's literally what they told us he was used for against the more predominantly Man cover teams like the Pats were. Crossers vs. Man constantly. So while Lil dirty was a limited player, separating vs man was his thing that keeps him on NFL rosters.

[GunnerBill]

 

  On 6/28/2023 at 2:23 PM, 34-78-83 said:

That's because its true. It's literally what they told us he was used for against the more predominantly Man cover teams like the Pats were. Crossers vs. Man constantly. So while Lil dirty was a limited player, separating vs man was his thing that keeps him on NFL rosters.

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I agree. But I spent a lot of last season hearing he is never open. 

[JerseyBills]

  On 6/28/2023 at 11:51 AM, Motorin' said:

Taron Johnson far and away the best Bills player on that list. Only 4 CB's ahead of him in zone separation. And 7 CB's ahead of him in man separation. 

 

I'm kind of hoping the guy doesn't have to play LB this year too.

 

I can't imagine going up again TE's, FB's and pulling lineman in the box on run plays is doing a whole lot for his longevity. 

 

 

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Taron has been one of the best slot CBS in the game for a cpl years now. He's damn good against the run too. 

 

Why would he play LB? Makes no sense to me

[Buffalo_Stampede]

  On 6/28/2023 at 2:31 PM, GunnerBill said:

 

 

I agree. But I spent a lot of last season hearing he is never open. 

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McKenzie had decent open analytic stats but his catch stats and yac stats were terrible. I think he’s actually a better WR than Gabe Davis though and they would’ve been better off going to McKenzie more than Davis.

[2003Contenders]

  On 6/28/2023 at 1:34 PM, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Chiefs put up like 35 a game in the playoffs when we played them. The Bengals whipped the Bills but that wasn’t a full strength defense mentally or physically.

 

The defense doesn’t bend too much when operating as it should. It isn’t an in your face defense, which I like better, but its a well coached defense that makes few mistakes.

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Yes.

 

Also with all the injuries and inexperience in the defensive backfield, McD and Frazier were playing even softer than they normally would, hoping to cover for those inadequacies. This was most exposed in both games against the Bengals in which Burrow got the ball out of his hand so quickly.

[Motorin']

  On 6/28/2023 at 2:36 PM, JerseyBills said:

Taron has been one of the best slot CBS in the game for a cpl years now. He's damn good against the run too. 

 

Why would he play LB? Makes no sense to me

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Cause the Bills line him up at OLB against 2 WR formations? 

 

Yeah, he's very good against the run for a CB. 

 

Would love to not see him get blown up against the likes of Hayden Hurst and Alex Ingold all season long. 

[FLFan]

  On 6/28/2023 at 11:26 AM, PBF81 said:

 

Hopefully, and you'd think, but the league seems to bend the rules for marquee players too.  

 

 

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Yes, they do, and Jets are the new darlings so I expect every break to go to Sauce again.

[RoyBatty is alive]

  On 6/28/2023 at 6:23 AM, BillsShredder83 said:

Seeing the complaining about the holding is irritating to me.  You play the game the refs allow and push the limits.

How many playoff games have we seen KC hold the livin isht out of us...... no flags, it was effective, we lost.........

 

We need to replicate it. Experiment, figure out the sweet spot for the crew refing the game. Yes, literally study tape on on what each crew is calling or not

 

^^ this is a two sided coin. teach our CBs how to play playoff football.  teach our WR's how to overcome it. Swipe them freaking hands off you with a violent forearm.

Not only get used to being physical, seek it out, make it your advantage. Make other teams dread playing you, we're gunna bang you up, and you can cry to the refs while youre down 2 scores

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The concept of aggressive defensive play on receivers in the playoffs  has plagued the Bills for decades really.  Multiple coaches don't understand or cant gear up defenders in playoff football which is almost always called differently than regular season, especially the Super Bowl.

 

How did the Bills lose the Super Bowl versus the Redskins, it was rampant pass interference that was never called.  It was so aggressive Andre Reed finally lost it and REED got a penalty  for his outburst. When he got that penalty game was, imo, effectively over.

[Beck Water]

  On 6/28/2023 at 7:33 AM, GunnerBill said:

The comparison table for WRs separating against Man and Zone has Isaiah McKenzie top 5 in separation against man coverage. 

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I don't understand the laughy face response. 

 

Josh Allen gave him props that he is really good at separating vs. man coverage.

He is.  It's how he killed the Patriots and the Dolphins. 

 

The problem is, the Bills don't see a lot of man coverage.

 

 

[Matt_In_NH]

  On 6/28/2023 at 9:25 AM, PrimeTime101 said:

This means nothing. Jets play more man, we play zone. I can not figure out for the life of me how you can compare the 2 concerning separation. 

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Pretty sure they look at each play and put it in the zone bucket or man bucket.  They said 200 snaps but not how many was of each so there could be insufficient data for man or zone.

[HerdMenatlity1]

  On 6/28/2023 at 2:18 PM, HereComesTheReignAgain said:

No, he actually said "We've had "bend don't break" defenses since the beginning of time".   "Since the beginning of time" would include the 2022 regular season as far as I know.

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I don’t believe Phillips, Schwartz or Petrine had “bend but don’t break “ defenses.