Josh Allen and the next Steps we need him to make to be the best.

[billsfan89]

The Bills grabbing the best guard and tight end in the draft along with signing McGovern one of the better guards in free agency was a good start to helping Josh succeed by having him be “Superman” less. The smaller additions like retaining Hines, signing Edwards as oline depth, adding Sheffield and Hardy to the WR corps and signing a pair of power backs in Harris and Murray all add up as well. 
 

The best thing for Josh and his development will be to make sure he is not having to be the playmaker all the time. Better protection, a better conventional run game and better overall playmakers will go a long way for Josh.

[Beck Water]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

He has to be a better more consistent decision maker. Josh's ceiling is the best in the league. His floor is lower than the other top guys he belongs in the conversation with. And it is because of the decision making. 

 

I don't want to take the hero ball away. We are always going to have to live with a bit of that for the incredible plays he can make. But he needs to be more consistent as a decision maker. He can't live out of structure as much as he has at times. 

 

As for what the Bills can do.... the two main things are proctect him better and design more plays to get the ball out of his hands fast. 

 

FWIW, McDermott mentioned "better decision making" as a skill Allen needed to build on to take the next step with the team.

 

Also FWIW, some people here like to dunk on Kurt Warner's fillm breakdowns of Josh because Warner was a very different style of QB who played in a very different style of offense.  I think that misses the point that a guy like Warner with a limited physical skill set made it to the Superbowl because of his "grey matter"; he is well able to understand and dissect what the defense is doing and exactly what that means for the available options on offense.  His "Study Ball" "QB Confidential" film breakdowns on Allen are worth watching during this slow time of the off-season. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/@kurtwarnerqbc/search?query=Allen

 

Warner has fundamentally become an Allen fan, and openly acknowledges that Josh has options he didn't because of Allen's great physical gifts.  But his points about decision making and how that played into the Bills red zone woes at times last season are IMHO worth revisiting.

 

[machine gun kelly]

3 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

not necessarily a strong game but a run game without Josh being the lead rusher game in game out. The Planned runs by Josh have to stop. 

solid Center, Guards with significant improvement will make the Tackles better too. Lines seem to improve from the inside out more a less anyhow

@blacklabel  any reason for the sour face on my main post? If you disagree with something, I got broad shoulders... i can take it but lets hear it

Prime,  it’s funny every time I see your posts I think of the Primetime days prior to NFL Sunday NF.  Those were fond memories as my kids were little and would climb into bed with us at 7pm when their tub Hes were done and they loved Berman and his antics.

 

As far as the Line, a lot of guys discount Spencer Brown had no offf season last year, as he had neck/back injuries.  It affected him in a critical year 2 with no time to perfect his craft vs. outmuscling people in year 1.

 

I have modest high hopes for him in year 3.  If Del would just drive past the buffet in the off season, he’ll be fine.

 

Go Bills!

[PrimeTime101]

2 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

Prime,  it’s funny every time I see your posts I think of the Primetime days prior to NFL Sunday NF.  Those were fond memories as my kids were little and would climb into bed with us at 7pm when their tub Hes were done and they loved Berman and his antics.

 

As far as the Line, a lot of guys discount Spencer Brown had no offf season last year, as he had neck/back injuries.  It affected him in a critical year 2 with no time to perfect his craft vs. outmuscling people in year 1.

 

I have modest high hopes for him in year 3.  If Del would just drive past the buffet in the off season, he’ll be fine.

 

Go Bills!

rock on  

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Ya Digg? said:

I see this point made a lot and to me it’s one of the stupidest arguments people make. So basically what people are saying is he needs to yell at people in public and embarrass them in order to be a “better leader.” Because only the greatest leaders made sure to yell at their teammates publicly and make a spectacle out of it. As if there haven’t been a billion threads crushing Diggs for doing this exact thing.

 

Yelling or getting in your teammates face doesn’t make a person a good leader. Also, how do people know that Josh doesn’t handle these things privately? You can demand poise AND also demand he loses his cool and berates his teammates for making mistakes 

 

You make some excellent points. 

 

There's something to be said for being a vocal, "in your face" leader.  I seem to remember a game - against Miami?  the Bills were getting pwn'd in the 1st half.  They came out in the 2nd half and turned it around.  Beasley was asked what happened, he said something to the effect "the coaches yelled at us in the locker room, maybe next time they should do it before the game".  If the team isn't taking another team seriously and lacks focus, maybe some yelling is merited.

 

But as far as the OL.  There's nothing harder on an elite athlete (and every man who makes it to the NFL is an elite athlete, the guy no one could handle in HS and more often than not in college) than getting technically whipped by the opponent and feeling like there's nothing he can do about it.  Yelling probably doesn't improve Saffold's ability to anchor and hand technique or Spencer Brown's footwork during a game. Things that may help: 1) technical position coaching, from teammates or coaches.  Is a mistake being made and placing a hand *here* instead of *there* might help? 2) different protection calls/blocking assistance from 6th OL or RB/TE 3) play calls, recognizing the OL is struggling and changing to plays where we're getting the ball out fast

 

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Beck Water

[Don Otreply]

49 minutes ago, sven233 said:

No QB is perfect.  They all have stuff that they can do better.  But with Allen, he is so different than everyone else and the last thing you want to do is change who he is as a QB.

 

To me, he is already the most physically gifted QB in the league.....maybe ever to play the position.  So, getting him to be the best QB in the league is most certainly possible.  You could make the argument that he is already there in many areas, but there are a few things he can do to make it a legit discussion throughout the entire league. Honestly, they are not major sweeping changes either.

 

First, maybe the most important thing for Allen to improve isn't even on him and that is getting better protection up front.  Too many times our line gets beat and Allen has immediate pressure to evade after taking the snap.  Awfully hard to read a defense properly when you are trying to create space to just throw the ball.  So yeah.....he will be much better if he has a real pocket to throw from consistently.

 

Second, and I have said this in multiple topics but I think this is the biggest thing he can do to take that next step towards becoming indefensible, but Allen needs to learn to take the "free cheese" on a more regular basis.  I for one don't mind the philosophy of trying to push the ball down the field more often than not.  You have a freak at QB that can just do things that others can't and you can take advantage of that.  But, where I get frustrated at times is when he tries really forcing the ball into double or triple coverage 30 yards down the field.  Sure, he gets away with it sometimes, but many times he doesn't and it results in incompletions or turnovers.  But, that doesn't have to happen.  There are many times on these plays where guys are wide open 5-7 yards away that would just be easy completions and keep the chains moving and Allen still pushes the ball down the field.  Teams know this and that is why they run their coverages deep and dare him to take the underneath stuff and he doesn't do it regularly.  I don't need him to do it all the time.  I want him to push the ball down the field.  But he would make that much easier on himself, and help the team in general, if he would take that "free cheese" on a more regular basis.  Force teams to honor that stuff and kill them with it and it will make teams play coverage underneath and open up the downfield passing game even more.  If you can, go back and watch the Rams game, Titans game, and Steelers games from last year.  Allen was taking those dump offs on a regular basis and he was unstoppable in those games.  He'd take that short stuff and just kill them underneath and then he'd throw the big daggers over the top.  It was beautiful to watch and this slowly started to fade away as the season went along.  We always say that something happened between the first half of the year and the second.  Sure, some of it was the injury, but the biggest thing that changed was that he started pushing the ball deeper and deeper and neglected the short stuff that was wide open.  I know he said the injury made the short throws more difficult, but not taking more of that short stuff on a consistent basis like he was early in the season, made the deeper stuff a lot harder to hit later in the year.  He still hit a lot of it, which was impressive, but he needs to take what the defense is giving him underneath more and he will almost be impossible to stop.  That was proven early in the season last year.

 

Finally, turnovers.  He needs to cut them down by at least a third.  With the type of QB he is, he is going to turn the ball over sometimes.  I get that, understand that, and even accept that as part of the trade-off for him being who he is as a player.  Now, some of those can be eliminated by the things I mentioned above.  Don't let guys just get in his face immediately after the snap.  A lot of the fumbles happened because the line didn't even give him a chance.  And then, by Allen making better decisions, and taking the "free cheese" underneath, that will help him cut down on the picks.  He will always turn the ball over more than some QBs but that is because of the style he plays.  And that is OK.  But there are things he, and the team around him, can do to cut down on them.

 

This was a long answer to a question that many fans think is impossible anyways because Mahomes exists.  But there is not a doubt in my mind that Allen can be on that same level, or even better in some areas, with just a few fixes.  In fact, I truly believe that Allen with the style of QB he is, could be the first QB in history to get to 6,000 total yards in a season.  He was on pace to do it before he got hurt and I think it is definitely something he could do with a little bit of injury luck and some of the things I mentioned above. 

   Concerning your first paragraph, 

 

   For Josh to reach the promise land, he truly does need to change who he is to some degree, because who he is presently is holding him back. I’m not taking about wholesale changes, but he does in fact need to reel in some of his tendencies so as to operate as an overall more effective field general. He  needs to take more move the chains options for three very important reasons, 1) it wears down defenses, and  2) it keeps the opposing offense off the field, 3) and very importantly Allen takes less hits/stays healthy. 
 

  I hate to use Brady as an example, but that pos knew how to demoralize a defensive, and took every short / chain moving option that presented itself, and it was and is an effective strategy. Dorsey and Allen need to work together to incorporate more of this. Doing so will make the deep pass option all the more effective. 
 

   This is how I see Allen being able to stay healthy and continue to be the scariest QB to defend right through the playoffs…, 

[GoBills808]

35 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Improve running gm and take the underneath stuff. Josh would be unstoppable.. 

 

Just look at the NE playoff game in 21

His YPA in the NE playoff game was 12.3 fwiw

 

Allen averages 7.2ypa for his career

[Don Otreply]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

His YPA in the NE playoff game was 12.3 fwiw

 

Allen averages 7.2ypa for his career

This right here is and example of what I’m saying.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Don Otreply said:

This right here is and example of what I’m saying.

He wasn't just checking down and taking underneath stuff in that game is my point

 

He was just on another level that playoff run. Some of the throws in the NE game in particular were legitimately 1 of 1 type stuff

[newcam2012]

4 hours ago, Gregg said:

A big part in helping Josh with these issues is better play from the OL. Last year the two Super Bowl teams had the #1 and #2 OL. The Bills was 26th. Josh does have to clean things up in his game. Some of those turnovers were 100% on him but his OL up to this point has been average at best and many times not even that good. Less "hero ball" and less running from him this year. Also, Josh is getting older, and these hits will start to take their toll if they haven't already.

Less passing because he can't afford to take the hits and get injuried. Like you said he's getting older. Those hits in the pocket are dangerous. Injuries are a huge concern. Look at his elbow injury which occurred on a pass. Stats bare out QBs get hurt more while attempting passes.

 

Bills can use Harris to pound the ball, Cook and Hines as big play guys in the run game and short quick passes. 

 

Quick short passing game would be optimal. Similar to Cinci and Burrow. Quick releases to prevent an Allen injury is prudent. Slants, outlet passes, RB and WR screens. Quick quick quick...

 

Protect the franchise QB is top priority here. It's the ultimate concern and you have to do everything to maximize the chances of a healthy Allen. Once in a while you can take a deeper throw to keep the D honest. I'm sure, we will all be holding our breath and hoping Allen doesn't get hit and hurt. 

 

Also, Allen can't hold on to the ball too long. He can't roll out and scramble as much because it makes him more vulnerable to injuries. Don't we all cringe when we see this? Josh has to throw the ball away and live for another play. There's nothing wrong with a punt sometimes. Besides, the Bills will now have a McD run D. That's pretty much gonna guarantee you a top 10 D. 

 

Lastly, like everyone says limit Allen's runs. Look at how Lamar gets injuried running. We don't want a Cam Newton replay. The Bills should use Allen's legs as mostly a decoy. No way should he be running the ball 7 or 8 times. He's getting older and it's just a matter of time before he gets hurt. The Bills have to think long term here. 

 

So we have a bit of a quandary here. The vital concern is to keep Allen healthy. Without Allen the Bills are basically toast. So how do you optimize this? Less longer developing passing plays and less QB runs in that order. More specifically, less passes where Allen has to remain in the pocket or scramble. 

 

It's a bit of a change in offensive philosophy. I get that but you can't lose site of the main priority. A healthy Allen!!! Some might think it's playing scared but I'd say it's playing smart. 

 

Let McD and his D do what they do. I have confidence his D will make the big plays when needed. No more 3rd and 15 first downs under his watch. 

 

Allen has to protect the ball, establish a solid run game, lots and lots of short quick passes. Sort of a variation of a west coast offense. Throw a few deep ones when safe.

 

Don't ever lose site of protecting your franchise QB. Without him the Bills don't make the playoffs. Under the above mentioned scenario the Bills make the playoffs. Most everyone is happy. 

 

Go Bills.

Edited June 27, 2023 by newcam2012

[JerseyBills]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

His YPA in the NE playoff game was 12.3 fwiw

 

Allen averages 7.2ypa for his career

Just look at the highlights even . He took the underneath stuff all day, we had a good run game, so that opens up play action and huge plays .  Keeps the D on skates because of everything they have to worry about. Is the rb running, Allen running,  play action, underneath, and the intermediate-deep ball. It's overwhelming for a D..

Nonetheless against 1 of the greatest defensive minds in nfl history..

 

I've been saying that judging by the moves on O, we'll see alot more games like that. 

[Beck Water]

15 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

As far as the Line, a lot of guys discount Spencer Brown had no offf season last year, as he had neck/back injuries.  It affected him in a critical year 2 with no time to perfect his craft vs. outmuscling people in year 1.

 

I have modest high hopes for him in year 3.  If Del would just drive past the buffet in the off season, he’ll be fine.

 

Go Bills!

 

Del?

 

I don't discount Brown having no off-season.  He also had ankle injuries last season IIRC.

 

But, I'm a bit skeptical as to what that means for him as an NFL OLman.  Maybe now that he's had the surgery he'll be all good - that's the same hope we hold for Micah Hyde. 

 

On the other hand, we fans were hearing a very similar story from Brandon Beane about Cody Ford going into the 2021 season (his 3rd): how he's played more games injured than healthy, how fans are discounting the impact of him needing off-season surgery and having no off-season strength training, how his best football is ahead of him.  And we know how that worked out: with Ford losing his starting job as a guard to Daryl Williams, then being traded before the 2022 season.

 

 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, JerseyBills said:

Just look at the highlights even . He took the underneath stuff all day, we had a good run game, so that opens up play action and huge plays .  Keeps the D on skates because of everything they have to worry about. Is the rb running, Allen running,  play action, underneath, and the intermediate-deep ball. It's overwhelming for a D..

Nonetheless against 1 of the greatest defensive minds in nfl history..

 

I've been saying that judging by the moves on O, we'll see alot more games like that. 

I doubt we will ever see a game like that again

 

I mean that was legitimately one of the best playoff quarterback performances in NFL history

[JerseyBills]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I doubt we will ever see a game like that again

 

I mean that was legitimately one of the best playoff quarterback performances in NFL history

Definitely was. I'm just saying in general , if all that is clicking,  Allen will be unstoppable.  Obviously we won't score every possession but the #s throughout the season would be record breaking.  Defense would be on skates all year, have no choice but to guess and Allen will destroy em

 

I 🙏 we have this philosophy,  17 will get his 1st of many MVPs

Edited June 27, 2023 by JerseyBills

[GoBills808]

Just now, JerseyBills said:

Definitely was. I'm just saying in general , if all that is clicking,  Allen will be unstoppable.  Obviously we won't score every possession but the #s throughout the season would be record breaking.  Defense would be on skates all year, have no choice but to guess and Allen will destroy em

So I am of two minds on this subject

 

First is there are definitely areas underneath that can be utilized more, but I'm unsure we have the personnel to maximize production there. That's where Beasley lived and Knox doesn't run clean enough routes reliably in tight areas

 

But further imo is that I really kind of want a higher ypa/ADOT with a guy like Allen...he has a unique skillset and I believe what people find fault with in Dorsey is actually him trying (not always succeeding, but trying hard I think) to maximize that. The risks are higher and comp% lower but rewards are greater

[Don Otreply]

20 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

He wasn't just checking down and taking underneath stuff in that game is my point

 

He was just on another level that playoff run. Some of the throws in the NE game in particular were legitimately 1 of 1 type stuff

No doubt, my point wasn’t saying to only take the underneath stuff, but to incorporate more of it into game planning, my point is that adjustments in Dorsey’s and Allen’s methods is likely warranted. 

[LABILLBACKER]

Sean McDermott has had over 5 years to build a great OL. But because he's more interested in defensive objectives,  Josh's play has been turned into hero ball. With a better OL the fumbles come down.  With a better OL the finding open wr faster improves. And finally with a better OL, you're not constantly running for your life which would afford you more time to have "poise" in the pocket.  We / I saw the true Josh Allen in those 2 playoff games of 2021.  Once Dabs left everything reset for the worse.

[Matt_In_NH]

My list is below...some other other stuff is not real in the OP..poise and leadership.   JA has performed great in pressure situations.

• reduce turnovers by 25%
• 300 more passing yards, 300 less rushing yards
• Take check downs a little more...reference the Rams game last year.
• A more consistent running game from running backs

[Jerome007]

2 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

The Bills grabbing the best guard and tight end in the draft along with signing McGovern one of the better guards in free agency was a good start to helping Josh succeed by having him be “Superman” less. The smaller additions like retaining Hines, signing Edwards as oline depth, adding Sheffield and Hardy to the WR corps and signing a pair of power backs in Harris and Murray all add up as well.

Josh has likely improved, but if he played the same as 2022 or 2021, but with this much improved OLine and the new WR/RB corp, the Bills O is scary! Those 2 guards and a healthier Brown will make him have more time, and all the good things follow.

[PrimeTime101]

1 hour ago, Jerome007 said:

Josh has likely improved, but if he played the same as 2022 or 2021, but with this much improved OLine and the new WR/RB corp, the Bills O is scary! Those 2 guards and a healthier Brown will make him have more time, and all the good things follow.

it is not even as much about the time as it is about trusting the line to do their job. When you lose trust... you get happy feet all game.