Josh Allen and the next Steps we need him to make to be the best.

[RoyBatty is alive]

31 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

this is where i disagree. getting hurt running is only a matter of time. To the Bold none of us have crystal balls. 

And it is only a matter of time before he gets hurt in the pocket , so what.  Simple fact is statistically Josh is "safer" on his design runs than in the pocket.  You are right none of us have crystal balls.

[Airseven]

22 minutes ago, Fleezoid said:

Imagine if we had a good running game. I mean a really good running game. play-action would be deadly! It would mean he could get the ball out quicker too. 

Imagine if the Bills had a good running game, good offensive line, good WR depth, and seasoned play caller! But they don’t. This is about Allen.

 

The unfortunate reality is that Allen’s elite traits are athleticism and arm strength which, on their own, don’t make a good QB. A guy like Mahomes, for example, has elite vision and accuracy which can compensate for potential weaknesses. Allen needs to be fine-tuned, controlled, and supported. This includes your run game and misdirection.

[BuffaloBillyG]

37 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

And it is only a matter of time before he gets hurt in the pocket , so what.  Simple fact is statistically Josh is "safer" on his design runs than in the pocket.  You are right none of us have crystal balls.

This is a bubkiss argument IMO.

 

Yes, you can point to statistics and say that more QBs have been hurt in the pocket than have while running. That is factual and a true statement.

 

Also factual and true is that Allen does not, has never and likely will never (despite what he says) run like a QB does. He runs the ball like a RB. Lowers his shoulder and seeks contact. Wanna know what one of the most common positions to miss time to injury is? RB. That has been one of the reasons why the position is devalued. Even when you don't see a guy getting injured and missing time the weekly punishment adds up. 

 

The simple act of wear and tear on the human body cannot be overlooked. The more he runs and the more he opens himself up to hits the quicker his body will break down. And I think we can all agree that we don't want that.

[Dan]

I’ve rewatched most of last season’s games.  Offensively, I really hope the offensive line additions pan out. That was the glaring issue. Fix that and the run game follows.  Its amazing how many times the offense stutters and its like Allen finally says F it, and takes the while offense on his back.  That needs to stop.  
 

Also, for whatever reason, the offense became very predictable by mid season.  That’s gotta be on Dorsey. 
 

Defensively, they were entirely too banged up. But they just have to be more aggressive. The bend but don’t break stuff only gets you so far as we’ve seen the last few years. 

[90sBills]

Better OL will go a long way towards Allen elevating his game. This would improve his field vision. He needs to see every available outlet and make the right read. I’m hoping the amount of qb design runs would decrease. I’d much rather see him run when the defense is occupied with covering all the receivers. Then, most importantly, slide before contact. And like most of the comments above…better poise. He gets frustrated when things aren’t going well. Learn to control that emotion and overcome.

 

Good topic op!

7 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

This is a bubkiss argument IMO.

 

Yes, you can point to statistics and say that more QBs have been hurt in the pocket than have while running. That is factual and a true statement.

 

 

This stat is only true because guess where most qbs operate? Yup in the pocket. So of course more qbs will be hurt there statistically.

 

Agree with you. Josh needs to avoid contact. 

[sven233]

No QB is perfect.  They all have stuff that they can do better.  But with Allen, he is so different than everyone else and the last thing you want to do is change who he is as a QB.

 

To me, he is already the most physically gifted QB in the league.....maybe ever to play the position.  So, getting him to be the best QB in the league is most certainly possible.  You could make the argument that he is already there in many areas, but there are a few things he can do to make it a legit discussion throughout the entire league. Honestly, they are not major sweeping changes either.

 

First, maybe the most important thing for Allen to improve isn't even on him and that is getting better protection up front.  Too many times our line gets beat and Allen has immediate pressure to evade after taking the snap.  Awfully hard to read a defense properly when you are trying to create space to just throw the ball.  So yeah.....he will be much better if he has a real pocket to throw from consistently.

 

Second, and I have said this in multiple topics but I think this is the biggest thing he can do to take that next step towards becoming indefensible, but Allen needs to learn to take the "free cheese" on a more regular basis.  I for one don't mind the philosophy of trying to push the ball down the field more often than not.  You have a freak at QB that can just do things that others can't and you can take advantage of that.  But, where I get frustrated at times is when he tries really forcing the ball into double or triple coverage 30 yards down the field.  Sure, he gets away with it sometimes, but many times he doesn't and it results in incompletions or turnovers.  But, that doesn't have to happen.  There are many times on these plays where guys are wide open 5-7 yards away that would just be easy completions and keep the chains moving and Allen still pushes the ball down the field.  Teams know this and that is why they run their coverages deep and dare him to take the underneath stuff and he doesn't do it regularly.  I don't need him to do it all the time.  I want him to push the ball down the field.  But he would make that much easier on himself, and help the team in general, if he would take that "free cheese" on a more regular basis.  Force teams to honor that stuff and kill them with it and it will make teams play coverage underneath and open up the downfield passing game even more.  If you can, go back and watch the Rams game, Titans game, and Steelers games from last year.  Allen was taking those dump offs on a regular basis and he was unstoppable in those games.  He'd take that short stuff and just kill them underneath and then he'd throw the big daggers over the top.  It was beautiful to watch and this slowly started to fade away as the season went along.  We always say that something happened between the first half of the year and the second.  Sure, some of it was the injury, but the biggest thing that changed was that he started pushing the ball deeper and deeper and neglected the short stuff that was wide open.  I know he said the injury made the short throws more difficult, but not taking more of that short stuff on a consistent basis like he was early in the season, made the deeper stuff a lot harder to hit later in the year.  He still hit a lot of it, which was impressive, but he needs to take what the defense is giving him underneath more and he will almost be impossible to stop.  That was proven early in the season last year.

 

Finally, turnovers.  He needs to cut them down by at least a third.  With the type of QB he is, he is going to turn the ball over sometimes.  I get that, understand that, and even accept that as part of the trade-off for him being who he is as a player.  Now, some of those can be eliminated by the things I mentioned above.  Don't let guys just get in his face immediately after the snap.  A lot of the fumbles happened because the line didn't even give him a chance.  And then, by Allen making better decisions, and taking the "free cheese" underneath, that will help him cut down on the picks.  He will always turn the ball over more than some QBs but that is because of the style he plays.  And that is OK.  But there are things he, and the team around him, can do to cut down on them.

 

This was a long answer to a question that many fans think is impossible anyways because Mahomes exists.  But there is not a doubt in my mind that Allen can be on that same level, or even better in some areas, with just a few fixes.  In fact, I truly believe that Allen with the style of QB he is, could be the first QB in history to get to 6,000 total yards in a season.  He was on pace to do it before he got hurt and I think it is definitely something he could do with a little bit of injury luck and some of the things I mentioned above. 

[maddenboy]

LEADERSHIP

 

learn that it is a Skill, and not simply a Trait

Then he can attack it as something to be mastered.

 

Many posters have noted that he sometimes is sulky on the sidelines, or otherwise has poor body language.   Josh does seem to 'lead by example' but there is more to it than being fiery and yelling "follow me!"

 

Because, among other problems, when Josh reverts to "hero ball" his teammates are likely to feel like he has given up on them as assets.    Because "hero ball" says "gtf outta my way."  No bueno

 

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by maddenboy

[GunnerBill]

21 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

This is a bubkiss argument IMO.

 

Yes, you can point to statistics and say that more QBs have been hurt in the pocket than have while running. That is factual and a true statement.

 

Also factual and true is that Allen does not, has never and likely will never (despite what he says) run like a QB does. He runs the ball like a RB. Lowers his shoulder and seeks contact. Wanna know what one of the most common positions to miss time to injury is? RB. That has been one of the reasons why the position is devalued. Even when you don't see a guy getting injured and missing time the weekly punishment adds up. 

 

The simple act of wear and tear on the human body cannot be overlooked. The more he runs and the more he opens himself up to hits the quicker his body will break down. And I think we can all agree that we don't want that.

 

On the flip side there are not many RBs that are Josh Allen sized and when he initiates contact I feel like he is more in control that the hits he takes in the pocket where he is often not in a position to protect himself. That is not me arguing for Josh to keep running at the rate he has. I am with @BADOLBILZ - getting back to 2020 levels is a realistic target. What did he have in 2020? The best OL he has played behind in Buffalo. So the two go hand in hand. But I do think Josh Allen is a guy who is less likely to get hurt when he is initiating and braced for contact than when contact comes at an unexpected moment (as we have seen both times he has hurt the elbow). 

[JohnBonhamRocks]

Not injuring his UCL is a good start. Fumbles - agreed. Most important to me is taking the short gimmes.

Allen is one of our franchise’s best ever players and given he came to us post-drought I think he can be looked at through rose colored glasses. Dorsey might have called a few too many long bombs but there were times there were also open short-to-intermediate routes Allen did not look or throw to. I hope the UCL and OL fixes help this issue but it also partly needs to be fixed between Allen’s ears.

[JohnNord]

3 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

So for me there are a few things I need Josh Allen to improve on because I do not think we have seen his Ceiling yet. I think Josh has been playing to much of a different game then Burrow and Mahomes because, until this year... the makeup of this offense has not been right. There are 2 things you can do if you do not have a top 10 offensive line. 1. Have great WR's or 2 have a some TE's that do different things for you that can help in protection and another getting open more. We now have that so for me, There is little excuse for Josh to take the final steps to greatness. Do not get me wrong he is top tier and the most dynamic guy out there... BUT.. there is STILL room for improvement and that should excite this fanbase!

 

Steps for improvement 

Fumbles. 8 freaking fumbles last year. I would like to see JA break his own record of 4 or less fumbles this year. (I think we can all agree with this)

Find the open player faster while in the pocket. I think this can get achieved do to a better O'Line. Last year Josh got a little jumpy in there because the lack of trust on the line.

Poise. I do not need to see him have Joe Burrow Poise,,, But I think we can all see he loses it in his head from time to time

A better VOCAL LEADER on this team. LOOK... lol... i do not doubt JA is a good leader, BUUUUUUUUUUUT ... lol... when that RT or that LG breaks down over and over I want to see Josh in their faces on that sideline. 

 

I know some are going to bring up play-calling in this thread. That is fine... But lets concentrate on what the "MAN" can do better and not the men behind the MAN. 

 

2 if's. IF we finally figured out the offensive line and Kincaid is as good as many are predicting? We have a chance to blow this out of the water. 

 

I will always call Josh Allen the most Dynamic QB in this league. HE will always be on my top 3... but this year... he has a chance to be #1. I think he can do it.. What do you think? 

 

EDITED

 

A run game that does not include JA as a main factor should not be left out. 

 

Less fumbles would definitely help but IMO the number looks worse.  Off the top of my head I know one was a fumbled snap, another was the botched McKenzie play in KC which wasn’t really on him.  

For me, it’s balance:

 

- When to take the check down

- When to hold on and try to go deep

- When to pull the ball down and tun

- When to truck a linebacker or hurdle a tackle for a first down

 

Hopefully a better OL and players he can trust more in short areas will help

 

[The Wiz]

21 minutes ago, maddenboy said:

LEADERSHIP

 

learn that it is a Skill, and not simply a Trait

Then he can attack it as something to be mastered.

 

Many posters have noted that he sometimes is sulky on the sidelines, or otherwise has poor body language.   Josh does seem to 'lead by example' but there is more to it than being fiery and yelling "follow me!"

 

Because, among other problems, when Josh reverts to "hero ball" his teammates are likely to feel like he has given up on them as assets.    Because "hero ball" says "gtf outta my way."  No bueno

 

 

He was much less "hero ball" before he hurt his elbow so I think that had something to do with it for sure.

 

I don't think he was doing it as a point of "gtf out of my way" but more of a change in the offensive philosophy to try to make it easier for him.

 

All the reports pointed to that the type of injury he had would change his throwing style more on the short and intermediate routes vs just chucking it.

[GoBills808]

Doesn't need to change a thing imo

 

they need to put more competent people around him on offense

[Ya Digg?]

4 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

 

A better VOCAL LEADER on this team. LOOK... lol... i do not doubt JA is a good leader, BUUUUUUUUUUUT ... lol... when that RT or that LG breaks down over and over I want to see Josh in their faces on that sideline. 

 

 

I see this point made a lot and to me it’s one of the stupidest arguments people make. So basically what people are saying is he needs to yell at people in public and embarrass them in order to be a “better leader.” Because only the greatest leaders made sure to yell at their teammates publicly and make a spectacle out of it. As if there haven’t been a billion threads crushing Diggs for doing this exact thing.

 

Yelling or getting in your teammates face doesn’t make a person a good leader. Also, how do people know that Josh doesn’t handle these things privately? You can’t demand poise AND also demand he loses his cool and berates his teammates for making mistakes 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Ya Digg?

[Patrick Duffy]

2 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

Fumbles. 8 freaking fumbles last year. I would like to see JA break his own record of 4 or less fumbles this year. (I think we can all agree with this)

Find the open player faster while in the pocket. I think this can get achieved do to a better O'Line. Last year Josh got a little jumpy in there because the lack of trust on the line.

Poise. I do not need to see him have Joe Burrow Poise,,, But I think we can all see he loses it in his head from time to time

A better VOCAL LEADER on this team. LOOK... lol... i do not doubt JA is a good leader, BUUUUUUUUUUUT ... lol... when that RT or that LG breaks down over and over I want to see Josh in their faces on that sideline.

 

Yeah for sure he has to protect the ball a bit better and work on the fumbles. I tend to agree about finding certain players that may be open on some of those shorter routes etc and also just his overall decision making at times could be better....

 

But I think it mostly begins with Oline improvement (as you mentioned) with better protection and allowing a little more time in certain situations than he's had up til now, that likely would be one of the biggest factors needed for improvement in that area.

[Ga boy]

2 hours ago, Rc2catch said:

I can’t disagree with most of the comments on here. I think for me, the key is to take some pressure off of him with a run game. Got to be able to win multiple ways and buffalo can’t win unless Allen is the whole offense. Hopefully that changes a little this season but I won’t hold my breath 

I think we need to continue to be pass first offense.  Quick passes a la Montana would be unstoppable and take pressure off JA17.  Put it in Cooks hands 15 times, but 75% passing will keep the chains moving.  Go over the top 5 times per game.  There shouldn’t be any games where we don’t put up 30 points.  

[JerseyBills]

Improve running gm and take the underneath stuff. Josh would be unstoppable.. 

 

Just look at the NE playoff game in 21

[Patrick Duffy]

1 minute ago, Ga boy said:

I think we need to continue to be pass first offense.  Quick passes a la Montana would be unstoppable and take pressure off JA17.  Put it in Cooks hands 15 times, but 75% passing will keep the chains moving.  Go over the top 5 times per game.  There shouldn’t be any games where we don’t put up 30 points.  

 

Why wouldn't it continue to be pass first offense? I don't see that changing anytime soon

[BuffaloBillyG]

33 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

On the flip side there are not many RBs that are Josh Allen sized and when he initiates contact I feel like he is more in control that the hits he takes in the pocket where he is often not in a position to protect himself. That is not me arguing for Josh to keep running at the rate he has. I am with @BADOLBILZ - getting back to 2020 levels is a realistic target. What did he have in 2020? The best OL he has played behind in Buffalo. So the two go hand in hand. But I do think Josh Allen is a guy who is less likely to get hurt when he is initiating and braced for contact than when contact comes at an unexpected moment (as we have seen both times he has hurt the elbow). 

I do agree that Allen is larger than the typical RB. And that he's able to brace and ready himself for the impact better than a guy James Cook's size. No question there.

 

I don't even argue that he's probably safer from injury than the typical RB would be. When it comes to Allen and his running I'm more in the camp of the wear and tear. The bumps, bruises and soreness he accumulates throughout the season must be simply astronomical due to his style of play. I believe it was 2 seasons ago he was talking about it at the post season presser and was saying how it all adds up. Those are the kinds of week to week things we don't hear about, don't show up on an injury report and will eventually erode a human body. 

[Beck Water]

38 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

On the flip side there are not many RBs that are Josh Allen sized and when he initiates contact I feel like he is more in control that the hits he takes in the pocket where he is often not in a position to protect himself. That is not me arguing for Josh to keep running at the rate he has. I am with @BADOLBILZ - getting back to 2020 levels is a realistic target. What did he have in 2020? The best OL he has played behind in Buffalo. So the two go hand in hand. But I do think Josh Allen is a guy who is less likely to get hurt when he is initiating and braced for contact than when contact comes at an unexpected moment (as we have seen both times he has hurt the elbow). 

 

Would just like to point out something else he had in 2020 - a very good "always open" slot receiver in Beasley AND a credible deep threat in John Brown/rookie Gabe Davis.   Because Beasley was running option routes, it took a while for defenses to "break the code" and figure out how to take them away

 

2020 Beasley still had the quickness/speed off the line and shiftiness that 2021 Beasley had begun to lack, plus by 2021 there was enough film of defenses successfully taking away Beasley that, especially after the rib  injury, he wasn't as able to be effective in 2021.

[PrimeTime101]

34 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

 

Less fumbles would definitely help but IMO the number looks worse.  Off the top of my head I know one was a fumbled snap, another was the botched McKenzie play in KC which wasn’t really on him.  

For me, it’s balance:

 

- When to take the check down

- When to hold on and try to go deep

- When to pull the ball down and tun

- When to truck a linebacker or hurdle a tackle for a first down

 

Hopefully a better OL and players he can trust more in short areas will help

 

I agree to everything you said.... but... The bolded? That is just fun football man.  I laugh every time JA does it lol