Beck Water Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 13 hours ago, first_and_ten said: Great post!! Maybe Kincaid can be that "Beasley" always open guy this year. That would be grand! Historically, it can take guys a while to learn the nuances of NFL defenses. On the other hand, Kincaid is 6'4" so "it's always open 2 feet over his head" might help 1
NewEra Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 20 hours ago, Beck Water said: but he also needs an "Easy" button to push. Enter Dalton Kincaid. 1
Fan in Chicago Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 13 hours ago, first_and_ten said: I just questioned his total commitment based on what I see in the off season. This is why I think your take on my take is dumb. Because I questioned his total commitment this off season, not his ability as a quarterback. He's been great for the most part. Without him at his best, they have no shot. My initial point was saying that maybe Diggs was trying to make a statement concerning the commitment of the coaches and maybe even Josh. I said this spat may end up helping the team in the long haul. Look back on all my posts. I am not a troll. I am curious why you are questioning his commitment. I do realize that last season he was practicing with Palmer but does not doing so this offseason lead you to that conclusion? I for one dont have all the information about what he does every off-season and cannot judge him. But I also think that the offseason is a time to recuperate mind and body for the grueling season. The last one was particularly so for Allen given the low level of talent around him. I do want him to take time off to not think about the game, relax , get things in perspective, keep his body fit and come to TC fully recharged. You will realize I am not trying to be an a$$ and truly want to know the background to your assessment. 1
Beck Water Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 33 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said: I am curious why you are questioning his commitment. I do realize that last season he was practicing with Palmer but does not doing so this offseason lead you to that conclusion? How do we know Allen isn't working with Palmer this off-season? Has Allen said so?
Beck Water Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 11 hours ago, 90sBills said: No arguing here on my end. We’re just fans expressing our opinions. 😎 To me getting to the Superbowl and winning it is Allen’s trajectory. So not progressing towards that is a step back. You’re right it isn’t just 1 one. It’s a pattern. If you’re not progressing you’re regressing. Hopefully he and the team will take the next step this coming season. Cheers! I'm not going to continue this. But you realize there's a fundamental contradiction implicit in what you say. You say "Getting to the Superbowl and winning it is Allen's trajectory. ....Hopefully he and the team will take the next step this coming season" He and the team. Not he. Getting to the Superbowl and winning it is a TEAM trajectory. It takes 53 players plus coaches. So yes, not progressing towards that is a step back. But it's the TEAM's step back, not Allen's. I also disagree with "if you're not progressing you're regressing". "holding steady" is an option. But by that metric, wouldn't you have to say that Allen regressed in 2021 too? After all, the TEAM lost in the Division round whereas the previous year, they went to the AFCCG. Yet anyone would tell you that Allen's playoff performances in 2021 were elite, whereas in 2020, the team got seriously outplayed in the AFCCG, including Allen. See how puzzling that "getting to the Superbowl and winning" metric can be? If it isn't just one game, it's a pattern...then there ought to be some sort of objective metric you can point to to show "regression". 1
JESSEFEFFER Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 1 minute ago, Beck Water said: How do we know Allen isn't working with Palmer this off-season? Has Allen said so? If it happened it was certainly less publicized than before. Entering the offseason, Josh was to avoid elbow surgery by allowing it some time for rest and recovery. However long that may have lasted. I had ignored this thread based on the title. Reaction to that kind of off season rumor chasing holds little of my interest. But, it has evolved into some more interesting territory. I'll add this. Josh's 2019 season was considered a mixed bag where many were not convinced he had the right stuff and then saw 2020 as his breakout. some still talk like the bills made the playoffs in spite of Josh's play. When you look at his 2019 splits fourth quarters, road games, redzone, and 3rd and long situations Josh was among the best in the league. My bias is that these are the type of situations where the QB "it factor" is revealed. I think it is interesting that 2022 Josh fell short of 2019 Josh in those 4 splits, most notably redzone. I think the sense he took a step back originates from there. That and the fact that his last game was a dud. 2
CincyBillsFan Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 5 hours ago, Aimee75 said: I don't understand fans of this team, who claim to be lifelong, bitching so much about a QB who has pretty much brought this organization back to life, especially after a 17 year drought. It's freaking strange to me. This team is not stacked like the 90's Super Bowl teams were. We got Allen, and we got Diggs. That is it. There are no Kent Hulls on this team, or Howard Ballards, no James Lofton type, no Thurman Thomas type RB's, certainly no Bruce Smiths. I don't get the comments about Allen over on this forum, and it's something I have noticed since the season ended. My guess is that they're not fans of the Bills but are posing as fans. What other logical explanation is there? A lot of the stuff these people post goes way beyond proper criticism of where & how Allen might get even better. Beck Water is a great example of a Bills FAN using a proper balance in his criticizing of Allen. But the stuff a lot of these people throw out about Allen is, pardon my French, BS. 1
CincyBillsFan Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 8 minutes ago, JESSEFEFFER said: If it happened it was certainly less publicized than before. Entering the offseason, Josh was to avoid elbow surgery by allowing it some time for rest and recovery. However long that may have lasted. I had ignored this thread based on the title. Reaction to that kind of off season rumor chasing holds little of my interest. But, it has evolved into some more interesting territory. I'll add this. Josh's 2019 season was considered a mixed bag where many were not convinced he had the right stuff and then saw 2020 as his breakout. some still talk like the bills made the playoffs in spite of Josh's play. When you look at his 2019 splits fourth quarters, road games, redzone, and 3rd and long situations Josh was among the best in the league. My bias is that these are the type of situations where the QB "it factor" is revealed. I think it is interesting that 2022 Josh fell short of 2019 Josh in those 4 splits, most notably redzone. I think the sense he took a step back originates from there. That and the fact that his last game was a dud. If the Bills had their typical "drought" QB in 2019 they don't make the playoffs. Allen was a key component of that teams success and he had a great playoff game in the first two and a half quarters at Houston. There wasn't a game they lost because of Allen and at least two, Dallas & Pittsburgh, that they won on Allen's back. So instead of 10 - 6 the Bills would have finished a very droughtish 8 - 8 without Allen. IMO the Allen "regressed" trope is false and the data backs that up. I believe that in 2022 the Bills had by far the worst O line of the last 4 seasons and that includes 2019. A bad O line is the Achilles heel of even the best QB's as seen by Mahomes against TB in the SB. The reason we should be cautiously optimistic as Bills fans is that Bean's moves should have at least raised the O lines quality to the middle of the NFL pack. And given how well Allen and the O performed with one of the worst NFL O lines in 2022 we may be shocked at how good they are in 2023.
CincyBillsFan Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 15 hours ago, first_and_ten said: I've been a Bills fan for over 40 years. Had season tickets during the Super Bowl years. Don't try to say that I'm not a Bills fan because I have an opinion on a certain topic. How long have you been a fan, 2 years? And yes, he had odd's on him to win MVP, but no real knowledgeable person thought he had any chance to win it. No one with the most turnovers would ever win it. Just because I didn't think he was ever a serious candidate to win the award doesn't mean I'm not a big Josh Allen fan. I am certainly a fan, and I would give anything to just win one Super Bowl. I suffered through a lot of lean years and then suffered through 4 Super Bowl losses. Dak Prescott was second and he's been roasted because of it. Mahomes had 12, Burrow I believe had 15. I wouldn't say anyone had a ton of turnovers, even Josh didn't have , in your words, a ton. Yes, turnovers are part of his play, but go back and look at some of them. Even he admits many of them were preventable. He has to do better and he's the first to admit that. Kudos to him for saying that. I'd like to know how you turned my comments into me hating Josh Allen as our QB. I think he is probably going to go down as our best ever. I just questioned his total commitment based on what I see in the off season. This is why I think your take on my take is dumb. Because I questioned his total commitment this off season, not his ability as a quarterback. He's been great for the most part. Without him at his best, they have no shot. My initial point was saying that maybe Diggs was trying to make a statement concerning the commitment of the coaches and maybe even Josh. I said this spat may end up helping the team in the long haul. Look back on all my posts. I am not a troll. So you've been a "Bills fan for over 40 years"? A couple of comments on this: * As a Bills fan I never considered that I "suffered" through the 4 SB losses. I was frustrated and pissed off, but "suffered" - no that would not be a word I would use for the excitement of going to FOUR straight Super Bowl games, winning FOUR straight AFC championship games and watching a team with all sorts of future HOFers enjoy a decade of elite play. * Prescott was 2nd in TO's playing what 5 fewer games? That's why he was roasted. And for the record, Dallas didn't go 13 - 3, win their division or advance to the divisional round of the playoffs. And Prescott had a better O line and more top notch offensive play makers then Allen had. * By what criteria & evidence are you basing your claim that Allen isn't fully committed? The off-season is designed in part for these players to unwind, get healthy and clear their heads. No QB in the last 5 years has been more successful then Mahomes and what does he do in the off season? Make a lot of commercials from what I can tell. 1
BADOLBILZ Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 5 hours ago, Aimee75 said: I don't understand fans of this team, who claim to be lifelong, bitching so much about a QB who has pretty much brought this organization back to life, especially after a 17 year drought. It's freaking strange to me. This team is not stacked like the 90's Super Bowl teams were. We got Allen, and we got Diggs. That is it. There are no Kent Hulls on this team, or Howard Ballards, no James Lofton type, no Thurman Thomas type RB's, certainly no Bruce Smiths. I don't get the comments about Allen over on this forum, and it's something I have noticed since the season ended. You do realize that no team is stacked like teams were in the early 80's and 90's? Right? Do I need to explain why? The league was very top heavy then. The Bills literally rank about the same roster-wise.......relative to the rest of the NFL.......as they did then. Top 3 NFL roster every year since 2020. You need to let the 1990's go. Seriously. The high expectations for today's Bills are realistic. If you think Bills fans or WNY media are hard on the team you are very ignorant about how the Bills are treated relative to teams in other markets. Buffalo is a sheltered market to play in. The Bills and other NFL teams are a multi-billion dollar assets because their fans are passionate about the team........in the world some of you want pro sports to exist that money and generational wealth for the players you want to adore would not be there. The type of people who have been fans since 1998 but have just 28 posts on the teams premier message board since 1998 aren't the kind of passionate that drives revenue. You are casuals. So learn to take criticism with a grain. 3
Nextmanup Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 26 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said: The reason we should be cautiously optimistic as Bills fans is that Bean's moves should have at least raised the O lines quality to the middle of the NFL pack. And given how well Allen and the O performed with one of the worst NFL O lines in 2022 we may be shocked at how good they are in 2023. I think your assessment of the OL's improvement is very optimistic. I view the changes as Band-Aids, as I've said here many times this off-season. Will we be near the worst in the NFL again? Probably not, I do see improvement with the changes, but middle of the pack is optimistic. The Bills didn't go NEARLY far enough distributing assets to the OL as I thought they would, FOR SURE. Beane and McDermott clearly, simply, do NOT value it. Of course they are in love with their DL...which is funny, b/c I guarantee you the OL translates directly to WINS a hell of a lot more than the DL does. Oh well. Life as a Bills fan. Let's hope the OL blows me away and is the 7th best unit in the league this year. That would be FANTASTIC. 2
JerseyBills Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 3 minutes ago, Nextmanup said: I think your assessment of the OL's improvement is very optimistic. I view the changes as Band-Aids, as I've said here many times this off-season. Will we be near the worst in the NFL again? Probably not, I do see improvement with the changes, but middle of the pack is optimistic. The Bills didn't go NEARLY far enough distributing assets to the OL as I thought they would, FOR SURE. Beane and McDermott clearly, simply, do NOT value it. Of course they are in love with their DL...which is funny, b/c I guarantee you the OL translates directly to WINS a hell of a lot more than the DL does. Oh well. Life as a Bills fan. Let's hope the OL blows me away and is the 7th best unit in the league this year. That would be FANTASTIC. That's just not true. Drafted and re signed Dawkins , got Morse who was the top C that FA period. Re signed Bates after a solid year Brought in vets, Daryl Williams, Spain, Saffold, Shell, McGovern. Edwards Recently Drafted Brown in rd 3,Doyle rd 4, Ocyrus Rd 2 Idk the starting 5 this year but we have some really good depth imo at all 5 spots
90sBills Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 1 hour ago, Beck Water said: I'm not going to continue this. But you realize there's a fundamental contradiction implicit in what you say. You say "Getting to the Superbowl and winning it is Allen's trajectory. ....Hopefully he and the team will take the next step this coming season" He and the team. Not he. Getting to the Superbowl and winning it is a TEAM trajectory. It takes 53 players plus coaches. So yes, not progressing towards that is a step back. But it's the TEAM's step back, not Allen's. I also disagree with "if you're not progressing you're regressing". "holding steady" is an option. But by that metric, wouldn't you have to say that Allen regressed in 2021 too? After all, the TEAM lost in the Division round whereas the previous year, they went to the AFCCG. Yet anyone would tell you that Allen's playoff performances in 2021 were elite, whereas in 2020, the team got seriously outplayed in the AFCCG, including Allen. See how puzzling that "getting to the Superbowl and winning" metric can be? If it isn't just one game, it's a pattern...then there ought to be some sort of objective metric you can point to to show "regression". Yes winning a superbowl takes the whole team. But you surely know that’s also a qb metric, especially an elite one. Fair or not that’s how qbs are judged. Allen is no exception. That’s why that position gets paid the most and is arguably the most influential position in all of sports. As for the second highlight I think you missed my acknowledgment on that point. I said even though he didn’t advanced as far in 2021 he was so lights out that the expectations were still high and trajectory intact. That was why almost everyone was on the Bills superbowl train before last season. Look I get it. You think Allen is great and not regressing. I think he’s off his initial pace and trajectory. No big deal. The important thing is we both want the team to do well.
Fan in Chicago Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 2 hours ago, Beck Water said: How do we know Allen isn't working with Palmer this off-season? Has Allen said so? Till last off-season , it was reported and we had pictures. This off-season, there is nothing. If it was reported before extensively and not this time, I presumed it hasn't happened.
90sBills Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 1 hour ago, CincyBillsFan said: No QB in the last 5 years has been more successful then Mahomes and what does he do in the off season? Make a lot of commercials from what I can tell. Mahomes also had a passing camp before the draft where he threw to his receivers and draft prospects. That’s something I’d love for Allen to do. Not only would the timing with Bills receivers improved but also scout draft prospects as well. Chiefs drafted Rashee Rice who was among several prospects that attended that camp to work out with Mahomes. This doesn’t mean Allen is bad because he doesn’t do this in the offseason. I know you’re hyper sensitive to anything Allen related. I agree with you that what he does is his business in the offseason. This is just the type of extra stuffs that I’d wish Allen do. Especially with how last season ended. But then again, who knows if Bills receivers would show up on their own time for something like that. Especially Diggs. 1
NewEra Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 1 hour ago, Nextmanup said: I think your assessment of the OL's improvement is very optimistic. I view the changes as Band-Aids, as I've said here many times this off-season. Will we be near the worst in the NFL again? Probably not, I do see improvement with the changes, but middle of the pack is optimistic. The Bills didn't go NEARLY far enough distributing assets to the OL as I thought they would, FOR SURE. Beane and McDermott clearly, simply, do NOT value it. Of course they are in love with their DL...which is funny, b/c I guarantee you the OL translates directly to WINS a hell of a lot more than the DL does. Oh well. Life as a Bills fan. Let's hope the OL blows me away and is the 7th best unit in the league this year. That would be FANTASTIC. I think 98% of the views you’ve ever poasted on this board are very pessimistic- so it makes sense why you feel that way. 2
Ga boy Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 9 hours ago, Aimee75 said: No I have not been a fan for two years. I have been an avid Bills fan since 1988. No knowledgeable person thought Josh would win MVP? You serious? He came in 2nd in 2020, and quite frankly I think he should have gotten it that year. He was very much in the race last season, till his elbow injury. I don't understand fans of this team, who claim to be lifelong, bitching so much about a QB who has pretty much brought this organization back to life, especially after a 17 year drought. It's freaking strange to me. This team is not stacked like the 90's Super Bowl teams were. We got Allen, and we got Diggs. That is it. There are no Kent Hulls on this team, or Howard Ballards, no James Lofton type, no Thurman Thomas type RB's, certainly no Bruce Smiths. I don't get the comments about Allen over on this forum, and it's something I have noticed since the season ended. I never said you "hated" Allen. I don't know you enough to know that. I just don't think his offseason has any bearing on how he will play. If he wants to golf and go on dates with Hailee Steinfeld, I don't think that is remotely an issue. He shows up at OTA's and all that, and aside from that, we literally have no idea what is happening behind the scenes as far as what he is doing in the off season. Just because we don't see it, doesn't mean it's not happening. Just dreaming but put JA17 and Diggs on those SB teams and we win all 4. I agree that the teams then were stacked. If Cooks resembles Thurmond, then we gotta chance. Go Bills 🦬 1
Beck Water Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 5 hours ago, NewEra said: Enter Dalton Kincaid. I hope so. But it's not unknown for rookies to take a while to adjust to the NFL
NewEra Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 1 minute ago, Beck Water said: I hope so. But it's not unknown for rookies to take a while to adjust to the NFL I have confidence
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