Doc Brown Posted June 25, 2023 Posted June 25, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mango said: There is no insane cap hit at least when compared to having him on/off the roster. It doesn’t exist. Diggs cap hit is $3M more off of the roster than he is on the roster. Diggs contract is prohibitive to the team no matter what they do with him. I’m going to keep saying this on every page as often as people keep mindlessly parroting this. Out of curiosity. How much money did Diggs already receive and would lose if he sits out this season (worst case scenario of course)? Edited June 25, 2023 by Doc Brown
BarleyNY Posted June 25, 2023 Posted June 25, 2023 12 minutes ago, Mango said: Sorry, that comment isn’t totally directed at you. I’ve broken this down a few times. I get everybody doesn’t read every page. But there are a lot of people that are either not catching it or ignoring it, then continuing the conversation of how it’s not possible because of the $45M. Spotrac isn’t wrong. His total dead cap is spread over two years. Which does in fact equal $45M. But dead cap isn’t in addition to, it’s in replacement of his current contract/cap number, and it’s over two years, not a single $45M increase. So you have to look at that number compared to what it costs to keep him. Having Diggs on the roster the next two years costs the team about $42. Only a $3M difference and actually saves the team $1.6M this season. If you want the specific break down click on the red X to the right of any season. It will break down the cap hit based on trade and release. It’s not that Diggs can’t be moved. He can be. It’s we would want (need?) an immediate replacement, and that replacement would likely cost $15-20M, which would be difficult. But not really any more difficult than signing that player with Diggs on the roster either. (ie. OBJ/Hopkins) The Bills can do it. But would likely have to package another player to make room this year. My quick thought is Mike Evans and a high pick for Diggs. Then see what value we can get for Morse which should give us the cap space we need. Use the high pick and space next year to solve the Diggs problem in the offseason, while also having a one year rental. That’s just an idea for what’s possible. But I’d prefer to keep Diggs and have everybody get along while playing high level football. This is a very nice breakdown of the cap ramifications of trading Diggs. I posted effectively the same thing a couple times, including that the biggest issue would be finding a replacement at reasonable cap hits this year and next. It’s a good exercise to go through because it is effectively the same as if Diggs were to tear an ACL or have some other major injury in TC. The Bills would have to find a replacement and cap space somehow someway. 1
Mango Posted June 25, 2023 Posted June 25, 2023 8 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: This is a very nice breakdown of the cap ramifications of trading Diggs. I posted effectively the same thing a couple times, including that the biggest issue would be finding a replacement at reasonable cap hits this year and next. It’s a good exercise to go through because it is effectively the same as if Diggs were to tear an ACL or have some other major injury in TC. The Bills would have to find a replacement and cap space somehow someway. I’m struggling to wrap my head around what other teams would inherit from Diggs cap wise. I’m tempted to think he’s VERY cheap by Diggs standards. The way I understand it is that the Bills have to eat his bonus money, and with the restructure, only his salary follows him. Even for 2023, Diggs would save TB something like $12M on their cap by taking Diggs and moving Evans. Which leads my to believe that maybe Diggs might be worth a high pick to a rebuilding team in cap trouble. Diggs for Evans and a 2nd in 2024 and 2025 (so they can take a QB with their first pick next year). That would get us a rental for this year, and some ammo to grab a receiver high in 2024. Again, my preference is that it all works out. But it is navigable, albeit with some creativity and the right return. 16 minutes ago, Doc Brown said: Out of curiosity. How much money did Diggs already receive and would lose if he sits out this season (worst case scenario of course)? Unsure. I hope it doesn’t come to that. I want to keep Diggs. If he’s traded, I want an immediate replacement as part of the deal, with some reasonable draft capital. If we have to open door number three and Diggs holds out, it will absolutely destroy our return. I’d be really angry. I can do some mental gymnastics to get behind either scenario above. But this one would grind my gears. 1
BarleyNY Posted June 25, 2023 Posted June 25, 2023 8 minutes ago, Mango said: I’m struggling to wrap my head around what other teams would inherit from Diggs cap wise. I’m tempted to think he’s VERY cheap by Diggs standards. The way I understand it is that the Bills have to eat his bonus money, and with the restructure, only his salary follows him. Even for 2023, Diggs would save TB something like $12M on their cap by taking Diggs and moving Evans. Which leads my to believe that maybe Diggs might be worth a high pick to a rebuilding team in cap trouble. Diggs for Evans and a 2nd in 2024 and 2025 (so they can take a QB with their first pick next year). That would get us a rental for this year, and some ammo to grab a receiver high in 2024. Again, my preference is that it all works out. But it is navigable, albeit with some creativity and the right return. Diggs would only cost a team that traded for him $1.42M this season. That’s obviously very, very cheap. Seasons after that would be expensive - $18.75M in 2024, $18.255M in 2025, $19.347M in 2026 and $17.75M in 2027. The issue I see is finding a team to trade something of value for him. Scratch any rebuilding teams. They would not want an already 30 year old WR that will be very expensive after this season - especially one that seems to prize winning a SB as highly as Diggs does. He won’t be happy on a team that can’t compete. OTOH I don’t see how it works out with any team ready to compete. We are not sending him to an AFC contender like KC or Cincy. I am looking to see if there is a realistic option. 1
BarleyNY Posted June 25, 2023 Posted June 25, 2023 (edited) Honestly, the best I can come up with is Philadelphia. It’d be a killer trio with Diggs, Brown and Smith. And Diggs would certainly have his shot at a SB. Maybe SF could be a possibility depending on how they feel about their QB situation. The other option is to wait until a contender has a major injury at WR and is desperate. Then maybe we could get real value. Again, I do not see it happening, but I’m good having fun gaming it out. Edited June 25, 2023 by BarleyNY
Mango Posted June 25, 2023 Posted June 25, 2023 28 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: Diggs would only cost a team that traded for him $1.42M this season. That’s obviously very, very cheap. Seasons after that would be expensive - $18.75M in 2024, $18.255M in 2025, $19.347M in 2026 and $17.75M in 2027. The issue I see is finding a team to trade something of value for him. Scratch any rebuilding teams. They would not want an already 30 year old WR that will be very expensive after this season - especially one that seems to prize winning a SB as highly as Diggs does. He won’t be happy on a team that can’t compete. OTOH I don’t see how it works out with any team ready to compete. We are not sending him to an AFC contender like KC or Cincy. I am looking to see if there is a realistic option. I agree with you on return being an huge issue here. I would be willing to get creative with a team like Tampa or Indy. Mike Evans, a 2nd. Indy with Diggs for Pittman and some picks/players. But it’s tough to look at a contender because I think I would absolutely need a first and change. If they’re that close I need a higher draft pick than high 20’s in return. It looks like Devante Adams has basically eaten through his bonus/restructure. Now that’s an untradable contract. If the cap hits were a little bit closer in value I could be convinced for something close to straight up with Vegas. I think it’s important to sometimes pick apart AAV vs Cap Numbers. Take a look at WR cap hits in 2024. Diggs at $18.75M is the 15th for WR cap hits. That’s a really friendly value for a top 5 player. OBJ is getting $15M, Diggs at $19M is a steal by comparison. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/2024/cap-hit/wide-receiver/ (For the people/person that keeps moving the goalposts with me on this. My preference is for everybody to get along. Diggs plays lights out in Buffalo; and we win the next 12 SB’s in a row. This is a thread on trade rumors. I’m just going down the rabbit hole on how it could or could not work out) 1
Orlando Buffalo Posted June 25, 2023 Posted June 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Mango said: Sorry, that comment isn’t totally directed at you. I’ve broken this down a few times. I get everybody doesn’t read every page. But there are a lot of people that are either not catching it or ignoring it, then continuing the conversation of how it’s not possible because of the $45M. Spotrac isn’t wrong. His total dead cap is spread over two years. Which does in fact equal $45M. But dead cap isn’t in addition to, it’s in replacement of his current contract/cap number, and it’s over two years, not a single $45M increase. So you have to look at that number compared to what it costs to keep him. Having Diggs on the roster the next two years costs the team about $42. Only a $3M difference and actually saves the team $1.6M this season. If you want the specific break down click on the red X to the right of any season. It will break down the cap hit based on trade and release. It’s not that Diggs can’t be moved. He can be. It’s we would want (need?) an immediate replacement, and that replacement would likely cost $15-20M, which would be difficult. But not really any more difficult than signing that player with Diggs on the roster either. (ie. OBJ/Hopkins) The Bills can do it. But would likely have to package another player to make room this year. My quick thought is Mike Evans and a high pick for Diggs. Then see what value we can get for Morse which should give us the cap space we need. Use the high pick and space next year to solve the Diggs problem in the offseason, while also having a one year rental. That’s just an idea for what’s possible. But I’d prefer to keep Diggs and have everybody get along while playing high level football. The cap hit/dead money next year would be about the $30 million if we moved him then? Which would hurt but I agree is more easily done then this year. Still doubt he moves but is much easier than I thought. 1
Mango Posted June 25, 2023 Posted June 25, 2023 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Orlando Tim said: The cap hit/dead money next year would be about the $30 million if we moved him then? Which would hurt but I agree is more easily done then this year. Still doubt he moves but is much easier than I thought. You likely get this, so I don’t mean to fire to at you. But the question provides a clean answer. If Diggs plays 2024 in Buffalo, he costs the Bills $27.8M in total. If Diggs is traded today, he costs Buffalo $31M total against the cap in 2024z The difference in having him vs. not is approximated $3M If traded today he saves them $1.6M this season as well. Edited June 25, 2023 by Mango Words for clarity.
ALG1130 Posted June 26, 2023 Posted June 26, 2023 21 hours ago, first_and_ten said: I'm just coming from the perspective of how Diggs might perceive things. Besides, all the golfing outings Allen has been seen at, and the new star romantic partner he's been seen with. I think it's fair to ask if he works as hard now as he did going into his second season. This is such a dumb take. I am sorry, but it is. If we are going to complain about Allen dating a movie star and doing golf outings, we would have to do the same for Diggs and his modeling. FWIW I have no issues with either. I have no worries about either of them regarding being focused and driven when it comes to Football, at all. They both prove it year in and out. Josh being in commercials did not hinder his performance last season. He was well in the MVP race till he got an elbow injury. These guys are allowed to have lives and other interests in the off season. 1
LabattBlue Posted June 26, 2023 Posted June 26, 2023 20 hours ago, Doc Brown said: The "he just wants to win" excuse is a slap in the face to everyone else on that roster who also wants to win but doesn't have to publicly throw a hissy fit on the field during a playoff game to show it. Beautifully stated. 👍🏻 2
Ayjent Posted June 26, 2023 Posted June 26, 2023 I get his frustration and love his passion to win. That performance against the Bengals was poop on a stick and the only player it looked like it bothered was Diggs. Instead of having a killer instinct the team wilted and that isnt okay. We're all frustrated by that bc that is not the identity of Buffalo nor the Bills we've known at their best. I get the criticism of Diggs being too public about his views, but accountability doesnt come easily when its not exposed. It is not uncommon for an immensely talented team that doesnt have the success it should to have this happen. The Bickering Bills. Warren Sapp calling out teammates publicly in Tampa before they won it. Trading Diggs would be a mistake. Everyone holding each other more accountable top to bottom is what you want and what is necessary to get that title. While the publicity may seem negative the result may be positive if the organization embraces it. I appreciate the fire and determination Diggs brings and honestly I think it could be a net positive at the end of the season. Getting rid of a guy like that is stupid and sets the organization back. 1 1 1
Buffalo_Stampede Posted June 26, 2023 Posted June 26, 2023 Diggs turned into Zoolander this offseason. I’m a little worried about him.
Ga boy Posted June 26, 2023 Posted June 26, 2023 3 hours ago, Ayjent said: I get his frustration and love his passion to win. That performance against the Bengals was poop on a stick and the only player it looked like it bothered was Diggs. Instead of having a killer instinct the team wilted and that isnt okay. We're all frustrated by that bc that is not the identity of Buffalo nor the Bills we've known at their best. I get the criticism of Diggs being too public about his views, but accountability doesnt come easily when its not exposed. It is not uncommon for an immensely talented team that doesnt have the success it should to have this happen. The Bickering Bills. Warren Sapp calling out teammates publicly in Tampa before they won it. Trading Diggs would be a mistake. Everyone holding each other more accountable top to bottom is what you want and what is necessary to get that title. While the publicity may seem negative the result may be positive if the organization embraces it. I appreciate the fire and determination Diggs brings and honestly I think it could be a net positive at the end of the season. Getting rid of a guy like that is stupid and sets the organization back. I keep hearing that Diggs was only one who cared. I don’t buy it. Our guys were dealt a lousy game plan. Cards stacked against them. Too many pass routes that don’t work on a slippery track. Bills had no chance. Problem was that Diggs showed his team mates up. 1
Warriorspikes51 Posted June 26, 2023 Posted June 26, 2023 On 6/25/2023 at 7:39 AM, Orlando Tim said: I am not sure if Albright has a real source who told him this but if there is a real source then it is the Bills trying to send a message to Diggs. That being said every single player not named Josh is available under the proper conditions, we build around him and everyone else is secondary. IF IF IF IF IF IF he were to become available. He's not.
Doc Posted June 26, 2023 Posted June 26, 2023 Change the title of the thread to "RIDICULOUS RUMOR:..."
BuffaloBillyG Posted June 26, 2023 Posted June 26, 2023 3 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Diggs turned into Zoolander this offseason. I’m a little worried about him. If what you say has merit then he is no longer an ambiturner. Any routes where he has to turn left are DOOMED. Trade him for a half eaten sandwich now while we still can! 1 1
eball Posted June 26, 2023 Posted June 26, 2023 Isn't every player in the league available for trade "under the right circumstances?" What a ridiculous thread.
Alphadawg7 Posted June 26, 2023 Posted June 26, 2023 21 hours ago, Mango said: Sorry, that comment isn’t totally directed at you. I’ve broken this down a few times. I get everybody doesn’t read every page. But there are a lot of people that are either not catching it or ignoring it, then continuing the conversation of how it’s not possible because of the $45M. Spotrac isn’t wrong. His total dead cap is spread over two years. Which does in fact equal $45M. But dead cap isn’t in addition to, it’s in replacement of his current contract/cap number, and it’s over two years, not a single $45M increase. So you have to look at that number compared to what it costs to keep him. Having Diggs on the roster the next two years costs the team about $42. Only a $3M difference and actually saves the team $1.6M this season. If you want the specific break down click on the red X to the right of any season. It will break down the cap hit based on trade and release. It’s not that Diggs can’t be moved. He can be. It’s we would want (need?) an immediate replacement, and that replacement would likely cost $15-20M, which would be difficult. But not really any more difficult than signing that player with Diggs on the roster either. (ie. OBJ/Hopkins) The Bills can do it. But would likely have to package another player to make room this year. My quick thought is Mike Evans and a high pick for Diggs. Then see what value we can get for Morse which should give us the cap space we need. Use the high pick and space next year to solve the Diggs problem in the offseason, while also having a one year rental. That’s just an idea for what’s possible. But I’d prefer to keep Diggs and have everybody get along while playing high level football. Sorry, no disrespect intended here, but I think you are kind of looking at this wrong, even though you aren't really wrong about any of it. I get its "only $3M difference"...but that is $3M difference between getting a top 5 WR on the field with Josh and having $45M cap space chewed up with no top 5 WR on the field with Josh. There is no way the Bills are going to tie up $45M of cap space over 2 years on a player who is on another team because they traded him while they are in the midst of a Super Bowl window. If they trade Diggs, they will take a significant step back in offensive talent while still tying up $45M in cap space. And lets not forget the Bills restructured him recently putting themselves in this difficult to trade position. If they truly had any concerns that a move might need to be made, they never would have done the restructure. At the end of the day, there is absolutely no reason to ever do that unless A) The team is headed towards a rebuild or B) The situation with the player gets so toxic that it eclipses his value as a talent and the team can no longer sustain him remaining on the roster. You're not wrong overall, anyone and everyone is moveable. But without points A or B above, this type of move just won't ever happen. And right now, we are pushing for a SB, so no rebuild on the horizon and there is no evidence suggesting the situation with Diggs has gone nuclear, in fact, all signs point more to its over with now. 1
Mango Posted June 26, 2023 Posted June 26, 2023 1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said: Sorry, no disrespect intended here, but I think you are kind of looking at this wrong, even though you aren't really wrong about any of it. I get its "only $3M difference"...but that is $3M difference between getting a top 5 WR on the field with Josh and having $45M cap space chewed up with no top 5 WR on the field with Josh. There is no way the Bills are going to tie up $45M of cap space over 2 years on a player who is on another team because they traded him while they are in the midst of a Super Bowl window. If they trade Diggs, they will take a significant step back in offensive talent while still tying up $45M in cap space. And lets not forget the Bills restructured him recently putting themselves in this difficult to trade position. If they truly had any concerns that a move might need to be made, they never would have done the restructure. At the end of the day, there is absolutely no reason to ever do that unless A) The team is headed towards a rebuild or B) The situation with the player gets so toxic that it eclipses his value as a talent and the team can no longer sustain him remaining on the roster. You're not wrong overall, anyone and everyone is moveable. But without points A or B above, this type of move just won't ever happen. And right now, we are pushing for a SB, so no rebuild on the horizon and there is no evidence suggesting the situation with Diggs has gone nuclear, in fact, all signs point more to its over with now. I agree with you. It is the cost of replacement due to our overall cap situation that is the issue. And why I think the rumor of "the right situation" is key. I think there is a conversation to be had about what options are available/possible rather than just saying "it is unaffordable". Assuming Diggs can be a good soldier for the duration of his contract, I think the return would have to be a stop gap for this year and a high draft pick next year to get a long term replacement on the cheap. It is honestly why I think one of the very very few reasonable options, if any, is Diggs for Evans and a few draft picks. I don't think we move on from Diggs this year, but I don't think he lives out his contract in Buffalo either.
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