To all the Fire McDermott Posters, a follow up question..

[BuffaloBillyG]

31 minutes ago, Behindenemylines said:

That’s a good point. My personal opinion is he will be gone in your scenario. For those that think Pegula doesn’t have the balls to fire him I say you don’t become a billionaire by being a nice guy all the time.  Winning is winning-boardroom or on the field and you need the right team 

 

What I think “happened” was that McD wanted Frazier out last year and was overruled.  This year he got his way but was told you’re handling the D and this is your chance to prove yourself correct. 
 

if this year isn’t successful( by however Pegula measures it) McD is gone 

Of course, this is just my opinion but I believe the two bolded parts go hand in hand.

 

Fans judge by championships. Most owners judge by the finances. NFL owners are a billionaires club that can print their own money. Sure, they may enjoy the one year of bragging rights over their buddies...but ultimately it always comes down to the cash.

 

With Buffalo opening a new stadium they will not be making sweeping changes to the staff unless the wheels come completely off and people won't pay for the product.

[Bill Lewes]

I'm not sure how these conversations get started.

The Bills have the second winningest record during the last 5 years
The drought was broken and playoffs 5 of his 6 years
We complained about the D and DC is gone (but now we're sad the DC left and it's all McDs fault?)
Our QB1 is on the cover of Madden (but now we need an offensive mind to lead us?)
Our (undeniably outwardly emotional) (Diva?) WR1 sparks another PR/Socialmedia mini-storm (but we're frustrated by how the HC handles it?)
McD's been nothing but buttoned up and professional (but one over interpreted slip of the tongue during a presser and he's a drama queen?)

I'm no Pollyanna or McD apologist   (BUT I cannot wait for the season - or at least training camp - to get here!)
 

[HardyBoy]

To five toughest schedule in the league, honestly don't even know if missing the playoffs would be a regression. 

 

I think people severely underestimate the amount of randomness that comes with a 17 game schedule, football in general and a single game playoff format.

 

You need to have a chance to get in every year and then you need to get lucky...way too many people confusing outcome with process here, and I'm not talking McDs definition of process. Don't give me the only outcomes matter, when those outcomes are so largely based on the bounce of a non-spherical ball.

 

Before all the "well Josh Allen" crowd come at me with "well Josh Allen"...JP Losman in a lot of ways was very similar to Josh Allen physically and mentally. That coaching staff and front office completely broke JP Losman.

 

Philip Rivers was another generational QB, how did firing Marty S work out for them? That was a gigantic reactionary error and happened because of focusing on small sample size outcomes.

[EasternOHBillsFan]

10 hours ago, ChicagoRic said:

Who is your replacement?  Who will absolutely, positively, 100%, be that "better" choice you are clamoring for?

 

I keep on hearing "McDermott is the problem."

 

Who is the solution? Someone actually available to be hired. 

 

It's not our job to do the research and to find "the guy". You have to go through individual assistants and available HCs and assess them and rank them first. None of us have that expertise.

 

All we know is that the ultimate goal of the franchise is to win a Super Bowl, and so far with the talent we have it is unacceptable to not even get to the Super Bowl, much less win it. We DO know that at least.

 

He's in a make or break year, and we'll see what happens come early 2024. You can't just shrug your shoulders and say "who's the guy?" and retain a coach that is not performing at the standard expected with the talent we have. That's not what winners do, that's what people that accept the ineffectual status quo do.

Edited June 18, 2023 by EasternOHBillsFan

[oldmanfan]

The hardest thing in sports is to predict who will or will not work out as a HC/manager.  The required skill set is different than that needed for an assistant coach or coordinator.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No. No. No. Harbaugh is definitively not a winner. If my team was 3-13 I'd hire Harbaugh tomorrow. He is a turnaround expert. He isn't a winner. 6 bowl losses in a row (including a CFP semi final to TC freaking U). A Superbowl loss to a less talented team and two NFCCG losses (again one of those to a clearly less talented team). 

 

It may well be that McDermott fits best in that turnaround specialist category too but if we are replacing him then doing so with someone even more proven to blow it in the biggest games does not make much sense to me.

He won the Orange Bowl at Stanford when he had Luck. He's never had a QB like Allen at Michigan or San Francisco. 

He beat Green Bay and Rodgers on the road in the playoffs. McD has yet to win a single road playoff game.

And nobody ever accused his teams of being soft.

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

 

 

I am often reactionary to a fault. I can't get 13 seconds out of my head nor the playoff performances of the recent years. Perhaps, I'm too short sighted to see a positive long term prognosis. 

 

 

Go Bills!!!

Yes and yes. 
 

7 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

He won the Orange Bowl at Stanford when he had Luck. He's never had a QB like Allen at Michigan or San Francisco. 

He beat Green Bay and Rodgers on the road in the playoffs. McD has yet to win a single road playoff game.

And nobody ever accused his teams of being soft.

He’s awful

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, PrimeTime101 said:

i mean damn... 

@teef

This **** Place

 

It's funny too because the OP's original question was who would be a better candidate, forget the fact that there are never any guarantees about that.  

 

Them it goes into another debate as to whether or not he should go.  LOL

 

Perhaps the most hilarious thing about all of it is that not one of us has a single shred of control or influence in the outcome.

 

The reality is that McD could make a huge leap forward in coaching progress, but he could also regress significantly too.  

 

None of anyone here knows with any certainty.  Nothing's changing 'til after the season of anything changes at all.  We're all going to be bitching at the TV over bad calls and bad plays, and conversely cheering our brains out when we succeed.  

 

Getting back to the original proposition,ho knows who the best choice would be if it were to happen.  The season will provide all those answers.  

 

 

[BarleyNY]

50 minutes ago, HardyBoy said:

To five toughest schedule in the league, honestly don't even know if missing the playoffs would be a regression. 

 

I think people severely underestimate the amount of randomness that comes with a 17 game schedule, football in general and a single game playoff format.

 

You need to have a chance to get in every year and then you need to get lucky...way too many people confusing outcome with process here, and I'm not talking McDs definition of process. Don't give me the only outcomes matter, when those outcomes are so largely based on the bounce of a non-spherical ball.

 

Before all the "well Josh Allen" crowd come at me with "well Josh Allen"...JP Losman in a lot of ways was very similar to Josh Allen physically and mentally. That coaching staff and front office completely broke JP Losman.

 

Philip Rivers was another generational QB, how did firing Marty S work out for them? That was a gigantic reactionary error and happened because of focusing on small sample size outcomes.

 

I agree that winning a SB is very difficult and that some luck is always involved. But that’s exactly why having a HC who is up to the task in the big moments is so important. He can’t choke them away. It’s too difficult and too much has to go your way to even have a chance. Coaches don’t get too many chances with that before they lose the confidence of their players. 

 

You have to be kidding me with the Marty S and Phillip Rivers comment. Rivers’ and Bernie Kosar’s careers were both wasted under Marty S. In San Diego his replacement, Norv Turner, was cut for the same mold and finished wasting Rivers’ useful years. I certainly believe we can do better than Turner. There’s no guarantee of hitting on any HC hire, but that doesn’t mean you keep one that you have to hope figures out how to win a big game. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

11 hours ago, ChicagoRic said:

Who is your replacement?  Who will absolutely, positively, 100%, be that "better" choice you are clamoring for?

 

I keep on hearing "McDermott is the problem."

 

Who is the solution? Someone actually available to be hired. 

 

Exactly the list of failures is much longer than the list of successes in new HC hires

 

 

10 hours ago, NewEra said:

He’s the only reason I would’ve been ok with firing McDermott after last season.  I don’t think McD deserved to get fired and I think he’s a good coach.  I just think Johnson might just the perfect fit for Josh allen.  

 

 That may be great if we were playing tennis and only person participating.  But there's 52 other who he also needs to be the perfect or at least close to it fit.  You want to hire him as a QB coach great.  I realize QB is the most important position far and away but hiring a HC for that reason is likely not a smart overall choice.

 

 

10 hours ago, Chaos said:

I didn't know who Sean McVay was (other than John McVay's grandson), Nick Sirianis or Zac Taylor were before they became head coaches.  All have had more playoff success than McDermott.   I doubt you knew who any of those guys were.   I doubt you were banging the drum to hire Sean McDermott.  So can we all agree to not pretend we know the universe of potential head coaches, and are also certain none could be better than McDermott?

 

And I'll see you're McVay  and Taylor and raise you Matt Rhule and Kliff Kingsbury just to name a couple off the top of my head.  And one thing I'm 100% certain of I'd have more chips to bet against you  on the list of failures over successes.  That's a stretch to say they have more playoff success as Sirianni and Taylor both have had limited experience, only 2 seasons.  McVay has had more time and went from SB champs to 5-12 in one year.  That's pretty impressive! 

 

You're right in that no one was asking the Bills to hire McD when they did, he was an unknown and has worked out very well in the overall success of the team.  Just hasn't won a SB and who knows if he ever will.  It took Andy Reid 21 years to win one and probably plenty of mistakes along the way before he did win.  Lasted 14 years with Eagles with one SB appearance.

 

You're right to that no one knows that replacement for McD couldn't be better.  But the odds are not in the Bills favor as for every success there are probably about 3 failures.  So good chance the team could be worse off.  At best a new coach will bring in new schemes and have a decent amount of roster churn, salary cap hits, etc. and a maybe a down year or two.

 

[Buckets]

10 hours ago, Billsflyer12 said:

So NO coach can now be fired unless the team has a replacement already that is “absolutely, positively, 100% be better?”

When has that been the standard in any sport?  No coach would EVER be fired if you have to have the “absolutely, positively, 100% be better“ guarantee because you could never guarantee that.

 

Their are reasonable arguments one could make for McDermott not to be fired, the “absolutely, positively, 100% be better“ one is so stupid and definitely not one of them.

- Rex Ryan who was .500 with Bills and had been to 2 AFC Championship Games with Jets.  Was a certain DC from Panthers with no HC experience a “absolutely, positively, 100% better” choice?

 

- 10 Super Bowl winning coaches have later been fired.  Their replacements guaranteed to be better?

- Of the 11 coaches who won their 1st Super Bowl in season 7 or later (where McD is now) did so after being fired from previous team.  Having already been fired were they guaranteed to be better the who they replaced?

- 3 NBA coaches were fired in last month who had won recent NBA Championships.

 

Then why fire the guy you have if you don't have a guy in mind that would do better?

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Exactly the list of failures is much longer than the list of successes in new HC hires

 

 

 

 That may be great if we were playing tennis and only person participating.  But there's 52 other who he also needs to be the perfect or at least close to it fit.  You want to hire him as a QB coach great.  I realize QB is the most important position far and away but hiring a HC for that reason is likely not a smart overall choice.

 

 

 

And I'll see you're McVay  and Taylor and raise you Matt Rhule and Kliff Kingsbury just to name a couple off the top of my head.  And one thing I'm 100% certain of I'd have more chips to bet against you  on the list of failures over successes.  That's a stretch to say they have more playoff success as Sirianni and Taylor both have had limited experience, only 2 seasons.  McVay has had more time and went from SB champs to 5-12 in one year.  That's pretty impressive! 

 

You're right in that no one was asking the Bills to hire McD when they did, he was an unknown and has worked out very well in the overall success of the team.  Just hasn't won a SB and who knows if he ever will.  It took Andy Reid 21 years to win one and probably plenty of mistakes along the way before he did win.  Lasted 14 years with Eagles with one SB appearance.

 

You're right to that no one knows that replacement for McD couldn't be better.  But the odds are not in the Bills favor as for every success there are probably about 3 failures.  So good chance the team could be worse off.  At best a new coach will bring in new schemes and have a decent amount of roster churn, salary cap hits, etc. and a maybe a down year or two.

 

I wouldn’t want to hire him ONLY for Josh Allen.  I love his offense. Just like I loved shanahans and Mcvays.  Having an offensive HC calling plays would eliminate the possibility of having to replace our offensive play caller every year.   We’d never have to worry about the next play caller coming in and being worthy.  The offense (and Josh) would have consistency.  
 

again…. This is if mcdermott has another terrible playoff loss.  I feel our offensive game plans in the 20 and 22 losses were awful.  I felt our defenses in 20, 21 and 22 weren’t ready for any of the 3 games.  Maybe that’s on Frazier- maybe not.  We’ll find out soon enough and that’s why I gave him at least this year.  But only this year if we have another playoff debacle.  
 

if we lose in the playoffs this year, I want to see a well coached team.  If it resembles 20 and 22 I think it’ll be time to roll the dice on someone new.  That said….. I don’t think Beane will ever fire McD and we’d have to find a new GM as well.  It’s very complicated and might not be worth the risk.  I’m not saying that firing him would be the best idea, but replacing him with Johnson is a risk I’d be willing to take.  We can only put up so many playoff stinkers under one HC.  Accountability must be taken at some point.  
 

Being good is not always good enough. 

 

[Beast]

The best offensive coordinator or best defensive coordinator are far from a guaranteed solution. So much more goes into being a head coach.

 

The Bills have a hell of a head coach right now. Tinkering with that could be down right disastrous.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Beast

[GunnerBill]

50 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

He won the Orange Bowl at Stanford when he had Luck. He's never had a QB like Allen at Michigan or San Francisco. 

He beat Green Bay and Rodgers on the road in the playoffs. McD has yet to win a single road playoff game.

And nobody ever accused his teams of being soft.

 

That Orange Bowl might remain his biggest win. 

[Billsflyer12]

11 minutes ago, Buckets said:

Then why fire the guy you have if you don't have a guy in mind that would do better?

Because you never know for 100% sure the new guy will be better, that can’t be the standard for change.  It isn’t in people’s own lives, nor should it be in sports.

 

If a coach is unsuccessful, or some some cases successful but as reached the peak of their ability then an organization may and should look for a new path.

[What a Tuel]

1 hour ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

It's not our job to do the research and to find "the guy". You have to go through individual assistants and available HCs and assess them and rank them first. None of us have that expertise.

 

All we know is that the ultimate goal of the franchise is to win a Super Bowl, and so far with the talent we have it is unacceptable to not even get to the Super Bowl, much less win it. We DO know that at least.

 

He's in a make or break year, and we'll see what happens come early 2024. You can't just shrug your shoulders and say "who's the guy?" and retain a coach that is not performing at the standard expected with the talent we have. That's not what winners do, that's what people that accept the ineffectual status quo do.

 

Its not shrugging your shoulders to say "who's the guy?", it is shrugging our shoulders and saying your mythical head coach who is going to come in and win a super bowl is just that - mythical.

 

Its all fun and games until next HC bombs it and gets fired too, and we go full rebuild and waste the 2nd half of Allen's career. 

 

There is zero reason we can't win now in the playoffs. This "McDermott can't do it" is just made up nonsense by people who want change for the sake of their imagination conjuring getting a HOF HC who will carry us through a dynasty.

 

Andy Reid has two decades of no Super Bowl winning HC playoff history until he won a super bowl.

Edited June 18, 2023 by What a Tuel

[Don Otreply]

Being that there are very few knuckleheads on this forum that are dim enough to want to fire McDermott,  what say we just ignore all their posts and watch them fade away. 
 

 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

17 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I wouldn’t want to hire him ONLY for Josh Allen.  I love his offense. Just like I loved shanahans and Mcvays.  Having an offensive HC calling plays would eliminate the possibility of having to replace our offensive play caller every year.   We’d never have to worry about the next play caller coming in and being worthy.  The offense (and Josh) would have consistency.  
 

again…. This is if mcdermott has another terrible playoff loss.  I feel our offensive game plans in the 20 and 22 losses were awful.  I felt our defenses in 20, 21 and 22 weren’t ready for any of the 3 games.  Maybe that’s on Frazier- maybe not.  We’ll find out soon enough and that’s why I gave him at least this year.  But only this year if we have another playoff debacle.  
 

if we lose in the playoffs this year, I want to see a well coached team.  If it resembles 20 and 22 I think it’ll be time to roll the dice on someone new.  That said….. I don’t think Beane will ever fire McD and we’d have to find a new GM as well.  It’s very complicated and might not be worth the risk.  I’m not saying that firing him would be the best idea, but replacing him with Johnson is a risk I’d be willing to take.  We can only put up so many playoff stinkers under one HC.  Accountability must be taken at some point.  
 

Being good is not always good enough. 

 

 

Granted while not as likely you could still have the same concerns on defense, having to potentially replace the play caller every year.

 

Many of the rumors, posts claim both Beane and Mcd report to Pegula directly and only he can fire either of them.  Don't know if this really is the truth or not, may find out one of these years.  But don't necessarily think firing McD means Beane is gone too.  In most cases the GM gets at least a 2nd try at a HC hire before the team figures out he may actually be the problem and he gets let go.  I think it Beanes case the roster he's put together is pretty solid so he'd get a pass.

[PBF81]

9 minutes ago, What a Tuel said:

Andy Reid has two decades of no Super Bowl winning HC playoff history until he won a super bowl.

 

If Andy Reid had Josh Allen, he wouldn't have lasted five seasons had he not at least gone to the Super Bowl.  

 

 

2 hours ago, SCBills said:

Multiple year rebuild?..

 

Dolphins didn’t rebuild, with a far less talented and injury prone QB, under Mike McDaniel. 
 

If we underperform and/or come up short again in the Playoffs, I think the Pegula’s need to think long and hard about bringing in a new HC. 
 

AFC Championship Game is the minimum, imo, to potentially avoid this conversation.   And if we don’t win that game, it has to be a competitive game, not another Chiefs ‘20 or Bengals ‘22 fiasco. 
 

I hope it doesn’t get to that.. but if it does, what exactly are we holding on to him for?   We’ll have reached a point where we’ve seemingly plateaued as a franchise and risk him losing the locker room.  

 

A major rebuild wouldn't be necessary.  Competent drafting on the GM side would be.  On the coaching side, the simple avoidance of drastic errors, that quite frankly no coach that's ever coached a team to a Super Bowl win has ever made in the playoffs, and the proper utilization of the talent that currently exists on the team offensively is all that's needed here.  

 

Who knows, maybe the 7th time's the charm for McD.  

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

thread so fresh...