Is Sean McDermott our version of Doug Collins?

[GunnerBill]

39 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Doug Collins? No.

 

He's more our very own Marvin Lewis.

And there is already a thread on this EXACT POINT.

 

 

It's been more than one year of playoff losses.  Pay attention.

 

 

The same people shouting "NO!" now are the people who were OUTRAGED(!) when McDermott released Marcell Dareus, and they would have supported retaining Dareus FOREVER....

 

They will clutch onto McDermott FOREVER for fear that we end up with any one of a thousand HORRIFIC past Bills coaches again. LOL.

 

Such is the plight of being a Bills fan.

 

They don't seem to catch on that you can actually IMPROVE the position, with a GREAT HC.

 

It all comes down to whoever does the interviewing and hiring, and how competent they are.

 

As I have now said for 3 years (I think), the DAY WILL COME when McDermott faces his judgment.

 

If we perpetually fail, he'll be GONE.  Mark my words.

 

 

 

I meant one more year of playoff losses. I thought that was evident. Seems not.

 

And tbc I was not outraged when they traded Dareus.

Edited June 15, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Thurman#1]

 

 

No.

 

No particular reason to make that comparison as opposed to an Andy Reid before he won a Super Bowl comparison.

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

No.

 

No particular reason to make that comparison as opposed to an Andy Reid before he won a Super Bowl comparison.

I know this has been beat to death but Andy Reid won his Super Bowl almost immediately after getting a top QB

[jethro_tull]

Do you think this team has had a championship roster?

No and no.  

[JGMcD2]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

The "D-Ham" ordeal's only going to carry him so far.  That's respect as a person, less so as a coach.  

 

People seem to have difficulty separating someone being a nice guy from someone that has what it takes to be superlative as a coach in a tactical/strategic sense.  

 

 

People also love to try and separate the personal portion of being a coach as if it’s insignificant. 
 

He doesn’t coach a sport, he coaches people. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

For me, a lot comes back to 13-seconds. 

 

The Houston Playoff loss was Billsy. Going up 16-0 and then not being able to score, but the talent argument could have been made because Duke Williams was our leading WR, and Pat DiMarco was targeted deep. 

 

2020 you could say the Bills weren't ready just yet to take on the now dynasty Chiefs. 

 

But 2021, you have to get that game into the garage and, to me, that moment undoubtedly accelerated the impatience with McDermott. 

 

He has grown from the rookie HC who was trumpeting a physical run game in snowy Buffalo weather, to a HC that allows a pass-heavy offense with no real commitment to the run. 

 

But definitely, the good 2020 vibes are wearing thin, at least outwardly with the fans. 

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

It will be interesting then.  He's never had any sustained success as a DC.  

 

His average Defensive rankings as a DC in Carolina were 17th in Scoring and 15th in Yards.  He arguably had better talent there than he has here, to date or this season.  Kuechly alone was huge and better than anyone we've had on D.  

 

So it will be interesting.  I agree with a few other posters that have essentially said that he's given himself enough rope to hang himself with.  

 

I do appreciate it.  I'm just curious what the excuses will be in his favor if it unfolds that way.  

 

At some point the obvious becomes obvious to just about everyone.  IMO he adds nothing to this team once they get into the playoffs, he only detracts.  We've seen absolutely nothing in the coaching department in the playoffs that suggests otherwise.  

 

 

 

 

He really did have success as a DC. That's why he was a top contender for HC jobs for a couple of years.

 

Averaging those stats doesn't really present a full or fair picture.

 

Throw out his first year for example, when he didn't have the pieces in place, and the average gets much better. 14.4th in points and 9.8th in yards.

 

And as I've been pointing out for decades now, Points Against is as much a team stat as a defensive stat. Points scored by opponent defenses count against your own defense in this stat. If your QB throws a pick six, somehow your defense has seven more points charged against it. The opponent runs back a punt or a kick for a TD? Your defense's Points Allowed goes up by seven points. On the face of it, that's dumb.

 

And that doesn't even include the fact that where the opponent's offense gets the ball is a huge factor in the likelihood of scoring points. If your RB fumbles and their team recovers on your own 20 yard-line, the EPA for your team is minus 5.5 points. Starting at your opponent's 20 gives you an EPA of minus 0.2. It's a huge difference and it simply means that when it comes to how many points teams score against your defense, your own offense and STs have a large share of that. If your quarterback is sacked on fourth down at your own one-yard-line and the defense knocks them back to the four in three plays and they kick a field goal, that's a tremendous stand by your defense that looks like a failure in PA, as it shows the defense as allowing three points.

 

Yards do a much much greater job in isolating the performance of the defense. If the other team runs back a kick for a TD, it doesn't affect the defense's Yards Allowed, which is exactly what should happen to isolate defensive performance. Your QB is sacked in the end zone? No affect on Yards Allowed, but somehow your team's defense is charged two points in Points Allowed. Leodis fumbles a kick and it's recovered on the five yard line and they drive the five yards and score a TD? Your defense is charged five yards, which is what they should be charged for.

 

Yard Allowed is a much better measure of defensive success, and McDermott's YA figures in Carolina look like this:

 

2011 28th rookie season with a scheme switch

2012 10th

2013 2nd

2014 10th

2015 6th

2016 21st

 

That still leaves a very serious drop in 2016. That absolutely has to be taken into any consideration. But four years of being a top ten D is sustained success.  

 

That's why he was a top head coaching candidate. He was very successful.

 

 

[Einstein]

50 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

No.

 

No particular reason to make that comparison as opposed to an Andy Reid before he won a Super Bowl comparison.

 

The Reid comparison doesn’t work.

 

Reid already been to a Super Bowl and multiple Championship games by the same point in his career that McD is.

 

And with a QB who wasn’t as good as Allen.

[Thurman#1]

47 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I know this has been beat to death but Andy Reid won his Super Bowl almost immediately after getting a top QB

 

 

Donovan McNabb was a top QB too. Not elite, but plenty good enough to win a Super Bowl with. Andy has teams that were good enough to win a Super Bowl in Philly. He didn't break through.

 

There's always a "yeah, but". Always, in any situation, failure or success. Reid had teams that were good enough but didn't break through. Till they did.

 

 

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

 

The Reid comparison doesn’t work.

 

Reid already been to a Super Bowl and multiple Championship games by the same point in his career that McD is.

 

And with a QB who wasn’t as good as Allen.

 

 

Again, there's always a "yeah, but." Always. Want me to list them for McDermott? I can. There are plenty.

 

Reid was in position to win. Several times. And he didn't. Until he did.

 

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Thurman#1

[Einstein]

2 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

Again, there's always a "yeah, but." Always. 

 

He was in position to win. And he didn't.

 

 

 

There is no “yeah, but”. 

 

It’s like 2+2=10.

 

Its just wrong.

 

Reid accomplished farrrr more than McD. And with a worse QB.

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Donovan McNabb was a top QB too. Not elite, but plenty good enough to win a Super Bowl with. Andy has teams that were good enough to win a Super Bowl in Philly. He didn't break through.

 

There's always a "yeah, but". Always, in any situation, failure or success. Reid had teams that were good enough but didn't break through. Till they did.

 

 

 

 

Again, there's always a "yeah, but." Always. Want me to list them for McDermott? I can. There are plenty.

 

Reid was in position to win. Several times. And he didn't. Until he did.

 

 

I don't think there's a comparable yeah but for McDermott. He has wildly underachieved relative to what he's got.

[bearstobills]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I don't think there's a comparable yeah but for McDermott. He has wildly underachieved relative to what he's got.

Wildly underachieved with what he's got??  They were 13-3 last year.  Only 1 team gets to win it all.  What's he got anyway?  It's a good roster, but nobody is shaking in their boots.  They could get hot and win it all.  There's about 6 teams who could.  This idea that either you win the super bowl or you are wildly underachieving is silly.  He's won 4 playoff games in the last 3 years in a loaded conference.  They'll eventually win it all.  It's a process. And as lifelong Bulls fan, they lost to the Pistons twice in the playoffs, and finally in Jordan's 7th season, they won it all. 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, bearstobills said:

Wildly underachieved with what he's got??  They were 13-3 last year.  Only 1 team gets to win it all.  What's he got anyway?  It's a good roster, but nobody is shaking in their boots.  They could get hot and win it all.  There's about 6 teams who could.  This idea that either you win the super bowl or you are wildly underachieving is silly.  He's won 4 playoff games in the last 3 years in a loaded conference.  They'll eventually win it all.  It's a process. And as lifelong Bulls fan, they lost to the Pistons twice in the playoffs, and finally in Jordan's 7th season, they won it all. 

Yes

 

unless you consider consecutive divisional round losses something to hang your hat on

 

and what he's got is one of the best quarterbacks in the league for the last three years

[bearstobills]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Yes

 

unless you consider consecutive divisional round losses something to hang your hat on

 

and what he's got is one of the best quarterbacks in the league for the last three years

I hang my hat on being a contender year in and out.  The only way to win the Super Bowl is to consistently go to the playoffs.  They do that.  And I agree with you on Allen.  He is ONE of the best. The best has won it twice recently.  Allen will figure it out.  My NBA comp for him is Giannis.  He was doubted up until he finally won it (in his 8th year).  Joker just won it in his 8th year.  Sensing a pattern?

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, bearstobills said:

I hang my hat on being a contender year in and out.  The only way to win the Super Bowl is to consistently go to the playoffs.  They do that.  And I agree with you on Allen.  He is ONE of the best. The best has won it twice recently.  Allen will figure it out.  My NBA comp for him is Giannis.  He was doubted up until he finally won it (in his 8th year).  Joker just won it in his 8th year.  Sensing a pattern?

Yeah I've seen this repeated a lot in defense of McDermott recently. I don't agree

 

The way to win the Super Bowl is to WIN playoff games, not go to the playoffs. McDermott's teams don't fare so well in the playoffs.

[JaCrispy]

We let the wrong coach go, imo…

[Doc Brown]

5 hours ago, Gregg said:

 

Terry wasn't so patient with the Sabres when they were a clown show all of those years. The Bills of the last 6 years have been much better than the Sabres of the past decade, but Terry has shown he will make major changes if he feels it's necessary. New stadium on the way the Bills better field a winning product considering what the cost will be for fans to attend their games.

It’s easy to identify incompetence.  Nobody that Pegula fired (head coach or gm) was coming off a season above .500.  Sabres and Bills.  I think they think they found their Tomlin/Cowher in McDermott and will stick with him through thick and thin.

That actually strengthens the argument that Pegula will give McDermott a lot of leash because he knows how hard it is to find a coach and gm who consistently make the playoffs and put a winning product on the field.

[Nextmanup]

30 minutes ago, bearstobills said:

I hang my hat on being a contender year in and out.  The only way to win the Super Bowl is to consistently go to the playoffs.  They do that.  And I agree with you on Allen.  He is ONE of the best. The best has won it twice recently.  Allen will figure it out.  My NBA comp for him is Giannis.  He was doubted up until he finally won it (in his 8th year).  Joker just won it in his 8th year.  Sensing a pattern?

Look at the Bengals right now.  They are in a really good place; they are a better team than we are.  They are going to be set up for a long time, and they have already been doing some winning for a few years now.

None of this phase of Bengals football would be happening if they never fired Marvin Lewis.

 

Look at the Eagles.  They won the damned SB against BB, Brady, and the Patriots no less.

 

Then things sort of fell apart and they FIRED THE HEAD COACH.

 

And not that much further down the road, they make an appearance in the SB again last year with the new guy.

 

Good organizations aren't afraid to improve the coach if he isn't getting the job done.

 

Bills fans are deathly afraid of the idea because most of our coaches historically have been dog ****.

 

The assumption seems to be if we change McDermott out, he'll be replaced with Kay Stephenson, guaranteed.

LOL

 

 

 

[Doc Brown]

6 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Look at the Bengals right now.  They are in a really good place; they are a better team than we are.  They are going to be set up for a long time, and they have already been doing some winning for a few years now.

None of this phase of Bengals football would be happening if they never fired Marvin Lewis.

 

Look at the Eagles.  They won the damned SB against BB, Brady, and the Patriots no less.

 

Then things sort of fell apart and they FIRED THE HEAD COACH.

 

And not that much further down the road, they make an appearance in the SB again last year with the new guy.

 

Good organizations aren't afraid to improve the coach if he isn't getting the job done.

 

Bills fans are deathly afraid of the idea because most of our coaches historically have been dog ****.

 

The assumption seems to be if we change McDermott out, he'll be replaced with Kay Stephenson, guaranteed.

LOL

 

 

 

Marvin Lewis was 0-7 in the playoffs.  It took a 4-11-1 season before Philly fired Pederson.  You’re comparing apples and oranges.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Marvin Lewis was 0-7 in the playoffs.  It took a 4-11-1 season before Philly fired Pederson.  You’re comparing apples and oranges.

No kidding. Pederson actually WON A SUPERBOWL lol