Is Sean McDermott our version of Doug Collins?

[Billsflyer12]

33 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

The NBA isn't the NFL, but there's still something about what happened in the NBA playoffs this year: the two longest-tenured coaches in the league squared off in the finals. 

Continuity matters. Having a consistent plan matters. Even if the Bills fail to advance this year (and based on prior years, "advance" really means "makes the Super Bowl"), it would be a mistake to fire Beane and/or McDermott. But history suggests that would probably be the outcome, since coaches typically don't get multiple chances to make that next step forward.

The NBA had 3 head coaches fired in the last month that had won Championships.  Bayern Munich, current 11 years in row winning league fired their coach mid season when they were again in 1st place.

 

BTW history suggests the opposite of continuity in the NFL to win Super Bowl.  No coach/QB combo has won a Super Bowl after 6th year together.  In an offensive league, where offensive head coaches reach finals and win Super Bowls McD would literally be bucking current environment and historical data.  
 

Could he win Super Bowl with Bills, sure he could.  History and data says he won’t.  Seems many here are fine with good coach, with good record who flames out in playoffs.

[DCofNC]

Yep, I’ve said it before and will say it again, this team is at their ceiling with him at coach. 

[Reed83HOF]

7 minutes ago, Billsflyer12 said:

The NBA had 3 head coaches fired in the last month that had won Championships.  Bayern Munich, current 11 years in row winning league fired their coach mid season when they were again in 1st place.

 

BTW history suggests the opposite of continuity in the NFL to win Super Bowl.  No coach/QB combo has won a Super Bowl after 6th year together.  In an offensive league, where offensive head coaches reach finals and win Super Bowls McD would literally be bucking current environment and historical data.  
 

Could he win Super Bowl with Bills, sure he could.  History and data says he won’t.  Seems many here are fine with good coach, with good record who flames out in playoffs.

That's an interesting stat, not 1 HC l/QB combo after 6 years...wow

[ndirish1978]

As long as he's not our version of La'El Collins I'm ok, he's a bit small.

[Billsflyer12]

9 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

That's an interesting stat, not 1 HC l/QB combo after 6 years...wow

 

No coach/qb combo in NFL history won their 1st Super Bowl together after year 5 together, is the actual stat.  I just looked it up again to be sure.

 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-coaches-and-qbs-should-divorce-after-five-years-of-not-winning/
 

Article a few years old but the stat still holds true currently.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Billsflyer12

[78thealltimegreat]

Glad I got some real discussion going here like I said I really like Sean and I remember what he took over but is Sean just a program builder like Doug Collins  or is he a finisher like Phill was the future is yet to be determined. 

[PBF81]

3 hours ago, Rigotz said:

McDermott put his nuts on the table this year and said “I’ll call the defense myself.”

 

If you don’t appreciate that and think it deserves one more shot, you don’t know what good looks like.

 

It will be interesting then.  He's never had any sustained success as a DC.  

 

His average Defensive rankings as a DC in Carolina were 17th in Scoring and 15th in Yards.  He arguably had better talent there than he has here, to date or this season.  Kuechly alone was huge and better than anyone we've had on D.  

 

So it will be interesting.  I agree with a few other posters that have essentially said that he's given himself enough rope to hang himself with.  

 

I do appreciate it.  I'm just curious what the excuses will be in his favor if it unfolds that way.  

 

At some point the obvious becomes obvious to just about everyone.  IMO he adds nothing to this team once they get into the playoffs, he only detracts.  We've seen absolutely nothing in the coaching department in the playoffs that suggests otherwise.  

 

 

3 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

I still believe his seat is warmer than most realize.

 

DC gone. ST gone. WR coach gone. 
 

He is running out of coaches to blame and fire.

 

Ahhh, he'll fire Kyle Shurmur if the D flops, and Marcus West of the O isn't in the top-4 or 5.  

 

 

[Jerry Jabber]

At this point, I’m leaning more towards a Marty Schottenheimer comparison.

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

And then Damar happened and your made up point was proven wrong. 

 

I also want the Mafia to know something about Sean McDermott. It’s not that he didn’t have my respect before, because he did. But the way he carried himself through this D-Ham ordeal? He has my respect forever.

 

The "D-Ham" ordeal's only going to carry him so far.  That's respect as a person, less so as a coach.  

 

People seem to have difficulty separating someone being a nice guy from someone that has what it takes to be superlative as a coach in a tactical/strategic sense.  

 

 

[Airseven]

I don’t recall if Doug Collins clapped exorbitantly.

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

Yup. Fans buying PSLs need to consider what will happen during down years - especially if they are prolonged. That would naturally lead to a poor secondary PSL market. STHs wishing to stop buying their season tickets would have to sell their PSLs at a deep discount or even give them back to the team for nothing. The worst case is more likely for the worst seats, which are usually owned by fans the least able to afford them in the first place. If the PSLs revert to the team then they can be resold in better times. In the meantime the team could sell them as single game seats. People obviously can spend their money as they see fit, but to me this seems a bit underhanded. It is a sneaky way for teams cash in even when they don’t put a good product on the field for awhile. 

 

Thanks on both points!!!  

 

Above though you bring up something that looms in the background.  

 

The other thing is that several key players, including Allen, Diggs, and Oliver to name a few, have opt-outs.  I don't ever see Allen leaving here, but who knows on some of the others.  

 

 

2 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

 

People can respect the humanity of someone and not respect their ability to do their job. To equivocate the two aspects of a person is ridiculous. I’ve known some really good people that are terrible at their jobs. 

 

Ya know, ... not sure why people relate getting fired to being a dirt bag or worthless person.  Some people simply only achieve to a certain level.  

 

 

[Nextmanup]

Doug Collins? No.

 

He's more our very own Marvin Lewis.

And there is already a thread on this EXACT POINT.

 

 

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Brandon has ZERO power to decide to go in a different direction. How are people STILL confused about the Bills heirarchy seven years into this regime? 

 

Will Terry? It would take more than 1 more year of playoff losses.

It's been more than one year of playoff losses.  Pay attention.

 

 

The same people shouting "NO!" now are the people who were OUTRAGED(!) when McDermott released Marcell Dareus, and they would have supported retaining Dareus FOREVER....

 

They will clutch onto McDermott FOREVER for fear that we end up with any one of a thousand HORRIFIC past Bills coaches again. LOL.

 

Such is the plight of being a Bills fan.

 

They don't seem to catch on that you can actually IMPROVE the position, with a GREAT HC.

 

It all comes down to whoever does the interviewing and hiring, and how competent they are.

 

As I have now said for 3 years (I think), the DAY WILL COME when McDermott faces his judgment.

 

If we perpetually fail, he'll be GONE.  Mark my words.

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

4 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Doug Collins? No.

 

He's more our very own Marvin Lewis.

And there is already a thread on this EXACT POINT.

 

 

It's been more than one year of playoff losses.  Pay attention.

 

 

 

Of course you're comparing him to a guy with a .000 playoff winning percentage.  Of course.

 

"I hate Sean McDermott so much as a coach that I'm going to compare him to the worst playoff coach in the history of the NFL!"

[boyst]

1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

Nothing,  I pulled up some stuff from his 13 second article in the diggs thread about how some in the organization were touring of McD back then,  he preaches accountiblity, but didn't hold himself too it.  Coaches who left wouldn't comment on their relationship with him, but would rather day it to his face, he controls all communication including what the media reports via Twitter and crap like that.  There was a comment from someone that well he was good at BN, but now that he is on his own,  he has to run his businesses.  

 

Now you have Adam Schien wondering this very topic and Mike Silver starting to join this parade...

 

 

PM sent. 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, my answer to your question, if I answer it, is "no, McDermott is not Doug Collins."

 

But it's a really good question, and only time will tell.  The answer certainly could be "yes."  

 

Let's start with the underlying premise:  That Josh Allen could be a transcendent talent like Michael Jordan.  I don't want to get into any arguments about that comparison, because Jordan really was otherworldly and the argument could be endless; however, the premise is not off the wall.  The NFL never has seen a talent like Allen.   Vick was the only truly outstanding QB who was a better runner, and there are only a handful of guys who could throw like Allen (actually, maybe no one).  The point is that if Allen can get all of his immense talent under control, including all of the critical game management skills, he COULD be the equivalent of Michael Jordan.   I mean, if someone told you Allen could have two three-peat Lombardis, we could argue about whether it's likely, and talk about how hard it is to win and repeat in the NFL, but isn't the only response to such an outrageous prediction, "If anyone could do it, it would be Allen."

 

So, let's accept the premise.  There's little question that Phil Jackson had the key to unlocking Jordan's true greatness, and Collins didn't.  (Similarly, Steve Kerr had the Steph Curry key and Mark Jackson didn't.)   Doug Collins wasn't a bad coach, but he didn't have the key. 

 

Does  Sean McDermott have the Allen key?  Well, you can analyze and argue that one all day long, too, but if you're asking the question as part of a consideration of whether and how long the Bills should stick with McDermott, it's a point less discussion.   Think of the possible outcomes:  At the end of his career, Allen has become Jordan or he hasn't.  If he has, then his coach had the key.  The only way to find out if a coach has the key is to play it out and see if Allen becomes Jordan.  The Broncos changed coaches and Elway won Super Bowls.   Was that because one coach had the key and one didn't?   There's no way to know what Elway would have done without the coaching change.   Moreover if, as is likely, at the end of his career Allen has NOT become Jordan, then what do you conclude?  That none of the coaches Allen had had the key?  Or maybe, more likely, Allen isn't the once-in-a-lifetime transcendent player that Jordan was, and you were changing coaches trying to unlock a door that never could be opened.   In that case, maybe you fired the coach (like the Eagles firing Andy Reid) who was going to win Super Bowls for you.  

 

There just isn't any way to know.  

 

I don't think Allen is Jordan, but I think the right coach can win multiple Super Bowls with Allen.  I think McDermott is the right head coach for Allen, so long as McDermott has the right offensive coordinator.  So, as I've been saying all along, I think Dorsey is the big question mark.  

 

And, by the way, I think McDermott is the right head coach because I think we will now begin to see McDermott's real genius, his defensive genius, begin to emerge.  I think we are about to begin to see sustained, defensive excellence out of the Bills, just like the Patriots saw from Belichick.  

 

Very good post although I completely disagree with your conclusion other than with the implication that this season will tell.  I'm leaning more towards that McD will be more towards that same 17th Scoring/15th Yardage average DC he was in Carolina, and with more talent including Kuechly, than getting sustained defensive excellence out of the Bills, and particularly considering that this will be the toughest schedule he'll have ever faced on the offensive side of the ball.  His schedules here to date have been categorically below average in terms of SoS.  

 

Quote

Does  Sean McDermott have the Allen key?

 

I see what you did there.  LOL  

 

Good post though!!  

 

 

[BuffaloBillyG]

30 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Doug Collins? No.

 

He's more our very own Marvin Lewis.

And there is already a thread on this EXACT POINT.

 

 

It's been more than one year of playoff losses.  Pay attention.

 

 

The same people shouting "NO!" now are the people who were OUTRAGED(!) when McDermott released Marcell Dareus, and they would have supported retaining Dareus FOREVER....

 

They will clutch onto McDermott FOREVER for fear that we end up with any one of a thousand HORRIFIC past Bills coaches again. LOL.

 

Such is the plight of being a Bills fan.

 

They don't seem to catch on that you can actually IMPROVE the position, with a GREAT HC.

 

It all comes down to whoever does the interviewing and hiring, and how competent they are.

 

As I have now said for 3 years (I think), the DAY WILL COME when McDermott faces his judgment.

 

If we perpetually fail, he'll be GONE.  Mark my words.

 

 

I mean, obviously if a team perpetually fails the HC will be gone. The issue is there is a huge difference in opinion between fans and franchise as to what constitutes failure. I think most teams consider being yearly playoff participants with a believable chance to win it all as successful. Most fans just want that Super Bowl this year...who cares about tomorrow.

 

And while it's very true you can improve the position with a great head coach the odds are always against a coaching hire being successful. It's way more likely to hire a coach...be it an up and comer...a guy with past success or whomever and see the choice flop. There is gamble and there is risk. 

 

We have all heard the term QB purgatory. A guy just good enough to win enough games to keep you away from getting that elite guy. I believe McDermott is trending towards "coaching purgatory". He's definitely good enough to get the Bills to the playoffs and win a ton of games. And if things go just right he will win a Super Bowl IMO. For a team that is opening a new stadium soon from a business perspective....it's much easier to sell a team that is in the playoffs every year over one that there is uncertainty with.

 

I predict that unless the wheels completely fall off somehow or for some reason he completely loses the locker room his "day of reckoning" will be the first year the new stadium is open. He's safe until then for stability reasons..but if he hasn't gotten over the hump by then he won't see year 2 of the new stadium.

Edited June 15, 2023 by BuffaloBillyG

[teef]

30 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Doug Collins? No.

 

He's more our very own Marvin Lewis.

And there is already a thread on this EXACT POINT.

 

 

It's been more than one year of playoff losses.  Pay attention.

 

 

The same people shouting "NO!" now are the people who were OUTRAGED(!) when McDermott released Marcell Dareus, and they would have supported retaining Dareus FOREVER....

 

They will clutch onto McDermott FOREVER for fear that we end up with any one of a thousand HORRIFIC past Bills coaches again. LOL.

 

Such is the plight of being a Bills fan.

 

They don't seem to catch on that you can actually IMPROVE the position, with a GREAT HC.

 

It all comes down to whoever does the interviewing and hiring, and how competent they are.

 

As I have now said for 3 years (I think), the DAY WILL COME when McDermott faces his judgment.

 

If we perpetually fail, he'll be GONE.  Mark my words.

 

 

so if someone repeatedly fails at their job, they end up getting fired?  you are a wealth of information my friend.

[Nineforty]

This isn't really fair to McD, but I would still pull the trigger and move in another direction by firing McD if we don't make AFC Championship. 

[TheBrownBear]

Obviously, the story is still being written, but I think he ends up more of a Cowher or Dungy.  Comes away with one championship during a decade of sustained success.  But he could just as easily end up like Marty or Marv or Andy Reid.

 

Or maybe he ends up like John Wooden.  It took him 15 years to win a title and then he retired with 10 of them.

 

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

I'd say the seat isn't hot yet.   We won 13 games last year, with the most injured roster we've had in recent memory.  The playoffs are obviously a different breed, but the players also need to step up come playoff time.  IE there isn't really a defensive call that works when your front 4 is getting no push.